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#1096229 - 11/17/08 01:21 PM I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Yesterday I found a really amazing and awe inspiring piano related video on You Tube that I wanted to share with my friends on the Piano Forum. I posted it on the "Pianists Corner", and, before even one other member could weigh in, Kreisler, the moderator for that forum, wrote the following:

This has been posted here at least 5 times. Closed... [/b]

My question to all of you, and to Frank, is: "Do you think this was the proper way to handle this situation?" Let's be clear, I am specifically referring to WAY he did what he did.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096230 - 11/17/08 02:53 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I would say it was a little abrupt considering the circumstances. Especially since there was nothing obscene/vulgar/otherwise objectionable about what you posted. I sent you a PM.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1096231 - 11/17/08 03:07 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Euan Morrison Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 1588
Loc: Edinburgh
I would agree with you both. It would have taken an extra 3 seconds to write "I'm sorry, but..." at the start of the message \:\(

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#1096232 - 11/17/08 03:20 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Kymber Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1348
Loc: MA
I posted something and got some interesting responses. Didn't go on the forum one day and the next day I saw that a number of replies were deleted and the topic was closed (or something like that). The post was "how long did you wait in line to vote". I guess the responses got out of hand and what they say is true - never discuss politics or religion-LOL
_________________________
“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee

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#1096233 - 11/17/08 03:42 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
Sounds like you caught the mod on a bad day...

best to let it go...

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#1096234 - 11/17/08 03:51 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
I'm sorry. His response was just downright offensive. There is no excuse for that.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096235 - 11/17/08 03:54 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11557
Loc: Canada
Have you talked to the mod privately (is it possible?) Moderating can come at difficult moments. I've just worked through several crises where I am and I'm totally drained (I'm a mod and part of a team) - talk to the man.

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#1096236 - 11/17/08 03:56 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4373
Loc: Jersey Shore
 Quote:
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
I'm sorry. His response was just downright offensive. There is no excuse for that. [/b]
Did you PM your feelings?

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#1096237 - 11/17/08 04:05 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
FWIW, we had a thread in Pianist Corner about the elimination of the star ratings, and it was summarily locked for no apparent reason and without any explanation or comment at all:

No more ratings?

I have no idea why it was considered inappropriate to be discussing that subject—or why the analogous thread here in ABF remains open. (Each forum has different moderators, sure, but I think the underlying policy should be consistent.)

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1096238 - 11/17/08 04:12 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Regarding sending him a PM, I tried that immediately after it happened, but, for some reason, there is no option that allows you to do that on his post.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096239 - 11/17/08 04:15 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
I have no idea why it was considered inappropriate to be discussing that subject—or why the analogous thread here in ABF remains open. (Each forum has different moderators, sure, but I think the underlying policy should be consistent.)[/b]

Apparently, there seems to be a problem with this particular moderator on this particular forum.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096240 - 11/17/08 05:10 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
deleted.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1096241 - 11/17/08 05:20 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I agree, that was very rude. Besides I'm not sure a thread should be closed because the topic is something already discussed or a video already posted. I believe that different discussions, at different times, even about the same topic, can bring each time new insight, perspectives and contributions, totally different from those already seen in relation with the same topic.

You have my sympathy.

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#1096242 - 11/17/08 05:26 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Frank's rules for moderators:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/23/89.html

 Quote:
Moderators Wanted

The forums keep growing, we need to add more moderators.
If you are interetested in volunteering to help, please read on...

The Moderator Will:

* Watch for Offensive Posts
* Watch for Inappropriate Pictures
* Warn Offenders
* Remove Inappropriate Pictures
* Ask the Poster of an Offensive Post to Remove It (or clean it up)
* Remove the Offensive Post Themselves if the Poster Refuses (and copy me on the details)
* Warn repeat offenders they can be banned (and keeping me informed of the details)
* Try to Help Posters of Legitimate Questions (by pointing them to the answer if it already exists)
* Alert Me If They See a Particularly Helpful Post (so we can add it to one of the FAQ areas)
* Uphold a Code of Ethics


The Moderator Will NOT:

* Let His/Her Personal Feelings Cloud Their Judgement
* Abuse The Privileges of Being a Moderator
* Override My Decisions
* Attempt to Steer any Guests/Members Toward a Particular Product, Dealer, Tuner, Etc.


Moderator Qualifications:
~ Moderators must be willing and able to put personal feelings aside.
~ They must use good judgement and treat all posters equally.
~ Admittedly it is not always easy to discern between lively debates and crossing the line. Do your best. When in doubt, discuss the posts in question with other moderators.
~ Should visit the forum(s)they are responsible for at least once a day when practical.

Basics to Keep In Mind
Our primary objectives are to provide a good source of information about all things related to the piano, have some fun, enjoy each other's company, share knowledge, learn from each other, and try to be helpful.
And remember, we are a family-oriented web site.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1096243 - 11/17/08 06:23 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Well, judging by that list, I'd say Kreisler is abusing his position and authority while he is failing to live up to the qualifications for his job.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096244 - 11/17/08 06:43 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Theowne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Well, I dunno, I don't particularly think that it was the most polite thing to do, but I don't think it was so bad either. Repeat threads can probably be seen as "cluttering" the forum and if it had indeed been posted 5 times than the moderator probably felt it was right to close this one.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Theowne- Piano Videos (Ravel, Debussy, etc) & Original Compositions
音楽は楽しいですね。。。

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#1096245 - 11/17/08 08:12 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Well, I dunno, I don't particularly think that it was the most polite thing to do, but I don't think it was so bad either. Repeat threads can probably be seen as "cluttering" the forum and if it had indeed been posted 5 times than the moderator probably felt it was right to close this one. [/b]

Initially I was not concerned with the fact that he closed the thread as much as I was the WAY it was done. However, in reading Frank's guidelines for what should warrant closing one, it is apparent that mine, and several others mentioned in this thread, did not meet any of the listed criteria. Therefore, it was a an abuse of his authority to take it upon himself to close it.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096246 - 11/17/08 08:58 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
CC2 and CL
I don't know the moderator, Kreisler, but I have read many of his responses in the past few months, and I find him to be considerate and serious. I can see how you would be somewhat offended at the brusqueness of his response but this being cyberspace and therefore difficult to "read" emotionally, I would suggest that this was not a personal offense and you might consider letting it slide.
This is an excellent virtual community considering the chaos of the web, and the forum is well moderated. I don't think this rises to the level of abuse of authority, and keep in mind that this is a volunteer position that benefits all of us..
Best

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#1096247 - 11/17/08 10:26 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I'm inclined to give Kreisler the benefit of the doubt, this being cyberspace and all, but I still would like to know why a good thread (even if it is a rehash) was closed so abruptly. It makes no sense to me, considering Frank's guidelines.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1096248 - 11/17/08 10:51 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
because it was boring? a syndicated re-run ? I don't know.. C'est pas grave as our french allies would say..

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#1096249 - 11/17/08 11:12 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
Initially I was not concerned with the fact that he closed the thread as much as I was the WAY it was done. However, in reading Frank's guidelines for what should warrant closing one, it is apparent that mine, and several others mentioned in this thread, did not meet any of the listed criteria. Therefore, it was a an abuse of his authority to take it upon himself to close it. [/b]
In fairness to Kreisler, though, we only know of his action in the particular case of CC2's thread with the YouTube link. He's not the only moderator, and we don't know who locked thread about ratings because there was no final message. The thread that Kymber mentioned was here in ABF, which isn't Kreisler's domain at all.

I'm very surprised that he has PMs turned off, which means the only way of reaching him is through Brendan, the other moderator in the Pianist Corner, or by using the "Report Post" link.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1096250 - 11/17/08 11:19 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
In Kreisler's defence, he may have been abrupt, but he was following what I believe are expectations about threads in the Pianists Corner Forum. Here are two of the things I've noticed from threads in the PC:

- Member recordings are strongly encouraged to be posted in the Member Recordings Forum. Often recordings are moved here by the moderators.

- Threads that are opened solely for the purpose of pointing out a single YouTube video are discouraged. There have been threads aimed at collections of YouTube Videos that are generally the more acceptable place to put this type of a post.

I haven't read enough threads on the PC to know for sure, but I suspect that there is some history to this that we do not know.

I think the best bet is to just let this go. As Obi-Wan would say: "These aren't the droids you're looking for, You can go about your business, Move along" \:D

Rich
_________________________

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#1096251 - 11/17/08 11:20 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Theowne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I can understand that considering the subject matter (an emotional video about human achievement), the response can seem rather cold/heartless and uncalled for. And it's true that it's not technically part of the moderator guidelines.

But, I guess I just don't feel outraged by this. Probably because I use a lot of web forums and this is basically par for the course (repeated threads). After a certain topic is repeated a lot the moderators will feel it is redundant and close it if it happens again.

It will feel harsh to the user because obviously the user doesn't know it's been posted and discussed, for the user it's a new experience, but the moderator is coming from a different perspective, having seen the same discussion played out quite a few times.

Also, the Pianist Corner moderators don't appear too fond of posts dedicated to single links or videos and prefer discussion threads. I noticed that quite a few video threads were locked in the past and there used to be a catch-all thread for any youtube videos to remove them from general posting, but that sticky post has disappeared for some reason.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Theowne- Piano Videos (Ravel, Debussy, etc) & Original Compositions
音楽は楽しいですね。。。

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#1096252 - 11/17/08 11:22 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Theowne, we were posting at the same time about the same thing. ;\)
_________________________

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#1096253 - 11/17/08 11:49 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by DragonPianoPlayer:
. - Threads that are opened solely for the purpose of pointing out a single YouTube video are discouraged. There have been threads aimed at collections of YouTube Videos that are generally the more acceptable place to put this type of a post. [/b]
Then why not moving it to the appropriate thread as I have seen in many other forums? If not, the closing thread comment could specify there's an appropriate area where to re-post the thread or the single post.

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#1096254 - 11/18/08 12:35 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8818
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Andromaque:
I don't know the moderator, Kreisler, but I have read many of his responses in the past few months, and I find him to be considerate and serious. I can see how you would be somewhat offended at the brusqueness of his response but this being cyberspace and therefore difficult to "read" emotionally, I would suggest that this was not a personal offense and you might consider letting it slide.
Well said, Andromaque. I have a very high respect for Kreisler, and I feel his contributions in the PC are always perceptive, insightful, supportive, and very knowledgeable. He's a spiffy chap.

For a while I was moderator on a forum devoted to a young pop musician -that forum is anyway now defunct- but I can tell you that being a moderator is not as glamorous as one might think. It takes patience and time, the latter of which I could have spent with other endeavors.

I seldom contribute to ABF, but I have noticed that CC2 and Chopin lover can be decidedly thin skinned -we tangled once, and I've since read a few of his more hot headed responses (to btb for example) in other threads on ABF- so that might be taken into consideration here.
_________________________
Jason

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#1096255 - 11/18/08 01:03 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
CC2 generally provides good info in PF, so he's got that going for him. I have seen what you mention, though, and my impression was that CC2 gave as good as he got in most cases.

I also have found Kreisler to be an upstanding member and moderator. That's why this episode puzzles me.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1096256 - 11/18/08 07:58 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Agerichfan stated:
I seldom contribute to ABF, but I have noticed that CC2 and Chopin lover can be decidedly thin skinned -we tangled once, and I've since read a few of his more hot headed responses (to btb for example) in other threads on ABF- so that might be taken into consideration here[/b]

I would proffer another take on your assessment of the depth of my epitheleum AF. Perhaps it's just that I don't mind confronting those that do or say outrageous or nonsensical things on here. For instance, several people have just posted that I should move on and let this whole issue go, because, after all, Kreisler is a stalwart citizen of this forum. That's all well and good, but it still does not excuse his approach to this particular situation and the way he chose to handle it. Where, in Frank's rules for moderators, does it state that they should handle other forum members with undeserved rudeness and abruptness, and close threads that have not met the stated criteria of inappropriateness or vulgarity? I think your previous encounter with me may be clouding your objectivity, so I can understand why you'd be inclined to take an opposing stance. I was attempting to post, and spur discussion, about a very inspiring and heart warming video that displays the remarkable achievements that handicapped individuals are capable of. I happen to work in Medicine and Physical Rehabilitation, and this video was definitely piano related and appropriate for that particular forum. I had no way of knowing that it had been posted in the past. We would not be having this conversation right now had Kreisler just moved the thread to another location or politely explained that it had been posted five times in the past. Internet or not, it is very clear that he did not handle it that way. I disagree that I am being thin skinned about this. I suspect that, had it been you or anyone else here that had received a similar response, you would have taken offense as well.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1096257 - 11/18/08 08:06 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
Jedi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 25
Loc: Western Australia

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#1096258 - 11/18/08 08:22 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11557
Loc: Canada
What is the procedure in this forum for complaints of this kind? I understand that there is a team of moderators, since there is also a moderator forum, and there is a site owner (Frank) who has a particular atmosphere, purpose, and criteria in mind. Usually any of these people are contacted in private, and public discussion happens as a last resort.

One thing I haven't been certain about in PW is the question of moderators. Where I moderate the ways to contact the moderator is clearly displayed in each forum. I find that harder to find here.

One thing to keep in mind is that moderating is a volunteer position with no rewards attached, and the behind the scenes activities can be enormous and ultimately tiring. Merely scanning the threads on a daily basis, every day, can be a chore. When you're out of time because of life's commitments you will tend to take swift action and perhaps be short on words.

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