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I am a new member over at Pianomagic, and I can say that it is worth it to me. I was half way thru Alfreds book 1 when I started, and will probably do a page or two from that book monthly.
Just taking it slow on the ear training, but I do beleive that a lot of tunes that I like will come very fast going the PM route.

Dale

I love the simple idea of this guy and his whiteboard: http://www.youtube.com/shawncheekeasy
Perhaps it would be better if he wrote up notation instead, but you couldn't get a quicker start to keyboard playing.

Here's a quote from his website
Is he allowing his students to take an easy option though?

Hi Keyboardklutz

Those videos you mention are great but, the problem for me is that you only learn one arrangement at a time - if you are like me that will be forgotten as the weeks pass by, unless I keep it up and practise and practise the arrangement.

Pianomagic on the other hand teaches you to see (erm...and hear ) the connections between all tunes, ie the underlying framework behind most popular music. Once you see it you can play just about anything you want to, which I think is rather cool

And what people (even many of those who join) often don't realise is that Mike (pianomagic) is there to interact with, members who make recordings of their playing get instruction from Mike on how to improve what they are playing - he is kinda like a regular teacher but, on the internet and that is the MAGIC as far as I'm concerned. He has an amazing ability to be able to listen to your playing and explain the adjustments needed to improve on it.

IMHO that is why it is such good value and has been a life changer for me


Hope that helps


Lee

As you know, I'm not too sure what the MAGIC is but this guy would seem to qualify too with his 'instant' results.

My question is - should students be encouraged to study the full spectrum of the discipline? Is 'reading traditional music notation was too frustrating' the case, or are his students just easily frustrated?

I think Piano Magic is a good way to get started but that doesn't mean you can never do anything else for the rest of your life. The $189 is for one year of membership. Give it one year and then decide if you want to study other parts of the full spectrum.

About remembering songs: I am pretty bad at this too. Often I need to listen to a song a few times to refresh my memory. Why? Because I never used to listen to music with well-developed ears. So back in my mind there floats some approximation of how a tune goes, but I never know it well enough to actually sit down and play it (or even whistle or sing it). But the more I learn to play by ear, the easier it becomes to remember how songs go.

About ear training: There are no ear training exervices in Piano Magic. Ear training is a side-effect of figuring out and playing the songs you like.

About the course: Don't join if you want a fixed plan of exercises that you have to complete within a set time-frame. There is an instructor to guide you, but no one to hold you by the hand all the time. You'll have to show initiative. For some people -- left-brain people such as software developers (heh heh) -- this may not be fun at all.

Yes Matthijs is quite right

Once you learn the basic structure of music it makes it so much easier to remember how songs go

Some of you may find this new blog more interesting than my blog

A lovely chap called Bob emailed me early in December asking whether he should take the plunge and spend $189 on pianomagic and I said "...sure, go for it!!".

and Bob has started his own blog to record his progress...to find out how he's getting along and to let him tell you all about his discoveries so far please click the link below:-

For "Coastie Bob\'s" Blog...{click here}


regards


Lee

Hi keyboardklutz

In my opinion (for what its worth), I think its good to try a little bit of everything. I can't read music but I will definitely try it one day, I pick up tips from videos, I pester Mike at pianomagic often to spill all the beans...I've picked up things from youtube and I've enjoyed watching the videos you mention above, I love Doug McKenzies videos too (one day, one day) and I'm enjoying reading through the jazz study group thread today (although I may be stuck in it for months)

There's just so much to learn and discover and yet too little time (wish we'd have had all this info at our fingertips when I was 15 instead of 30 years later!)


Lee

This was my downfall. I expected the course to "train" me to hear melodies. Mahlzeit is correct, the course does not teach this directly. When I am instructed to "pick out the melody by hunt and peck", I'm done. I am not kidding when I say I cannot tell if a note is up or down if it's a 1/2 or whole step or even two. I can tell it's different, but not direction.

After a few months of really trying, and what I felt was non-support (ya gotta work, keep trying, it will come...) I gave up. I started to pay attention to the sounds I created, and do ear exercises from "Practica Musica", and I can tell I am improving, but not to the point I feel I could start PM again, yet.

One of the reasons I went with Matthew Stephens PBE course is, when talking with Matthew, he understood exactly what I was saying, and offered that if I followed lessons 1 through 10 on his beginner DVD, I would develop the ability to "hear". He's right. I have made more progress in the last three months than in the previous 18 (from a recognizing notes standpoint). Perhaps just playing is kicking in as well, but the fact is, Matthew's program is providing what was missing from PM.

My advice is, if you can hear changes and direction, go for it. If not, work on it until you can, then give it a try.

I hold myself responsible for not succeeding with PM, as Mike as much as told me I would have to "do the work" to begin to hear the notes, but I needed help, and could not "get it" on my own. I needed direction.

I don't know about you Seaside, but rather than being tied to a computer, I was off on my bike fishing when I was 15.

Hi gmmm1

I hear what you are saying

and yes sadly you are probably the one responsible, I remember you telling me "the magic secret" of the other course and of course we both now know it was nothing different to what was right before your eyes at pianomagic and what I already knew.

Just one thing the instruction at pianomagic is quite clearly not to "pick out the melody by hunt and peck" and if that is all you understood to do then Mike and the gang are probably at fault for not steering you right (in fact I am most annoyed with myself because I can usually help any newbies with melody issues (heck I'm the king of 'em) and I can't understand how I didn't manage to help you when you were there)

As I've just mentioned your inability to tell whether a melody goes up or down is an affliction commonly known at pianomagic as "Seaside_Lee Affliction" and I'd have gladly done my best to help you to cure it. To be honest I am not sure how you didn't manage to get the direction you needed...maybe, if you'd have only found my endless questions in the forums (that are still there) on melody ups and downs you'd have had it licked.

However, I am thrilled that Matthews program is providing the missing links for you ...because at the end of the day if you are enjoying yourself and having fun then that is what its all about IMHO

People were playing pianos by ear a long time before pianomagic came along so it ain't the only way to do it and the beautiful music played on here in the bars and the recitals is proof pudding that there are many different ways to learn to play that work.


regards


Lee

Ah yes, there were many kool things that I was doing at 15 !!

Still wouldn't have minded knowing what I know now about piano, back then (if only for the babes )

I am a PM member and I think that there are a lot of merits with the approach. However, as Lee and a few others have pointed out - it isn't the only method. Some of the more recent youTube sites provide tutorials that are direct and give you the short cut to playing many songs (Shawn Cheek, Music without Music TV and PianoJohn). I subscribe to two of these methods and apart from being able to play some of the songs they demonstarte, I have also been able to use the same methods to crack other tunes I love.

Finally, although the PM fee may seem expensive to begin with, the renewal fee after one year is half price which is a good way of luring you back.

When I listened to him play Maybe I'm Amazed I thought the obvious, "that sounds just like the record". This brings to mind another point about Pianomagic.

Pianomagic will not teach you how to play something that sounds exactly like the arrangement you are used to hearing.

Pianomagic teaches you how to pick out melodies, how to harmonize the melody in a variety of ways (ie what chords you can play), and how to play a number of decorations. The whole point of Pianomagic is you are creating your own arrangement.

So if your goal is to play "Piano Man" (or insert your favorite song here - Alone Again Naturally maybe for Gilbert ) and sound like the record then Pianomagic is not for you.

PianoMagic is really just a name as far as the "magic" part goes. PM has a foundation of solid music theory/math (that should be easier for tech people) - a simple but concrete method of music/harmony that is used in all types of music. It's the study of chords, basically. Calling it "magic" is more appealing, though, and fun. BTW, a lot of people start out with simple songs, such as Twinkle, Twinkle, to get the basic chords/theory down pat.

Be forewarned before paying for his service.
First he says the videos are bigger and better on his site. They are not. They are the same size and quality as youtube. He says ALL the part 2s and 3s are on his site. But he has many, many unfinished songs that are months old and seems he has no plans to finish them. He tells you to send him requests and he'll do them. He doesnt do this for free. Despite being a member you must pay extra if you want him to do a requested song. His updates are way too infrequent. He has stated that he does this full time. To me, that means he should have a new song or part to a song almost everyday. Yet he uploads 1 part every month or so. I can write almost a full song out with Synthesia in like a hour. He is much more of a pianist than ill ever be, yet it takes a month? Thats laziness and milking it out to its fullest.
He wont answer his emails unless you need tech support or you praise him. You cannot download his videos unless you pay for quicktime in order to use its save feature, which is shut off in the free version. (mp4 files are QT/itunes only)
If you nicely question any of this stuff in a email, he ignores it. If you try on youtube, he will delete it and disable comments. In other words, 95% of his youtube videos have comments disabled.
Very bad customer support, and terrible updates on something that is simple (for him) to do.

One more thing, he recently has said that ALL of Abbey Road is uploaded. Yet only 5 or 6 songs are there.
Obviously his plans are to get rich on the net and do little or no work.
I got suckered in for a month, i wont be paying for a second month. You get paid for how much you work, and i cant see many people paying $30 every month for 1 part to a song. A shame. He had a good idea and the whiteboard method is nice. But the once a month updates are certainly not worth paying for.

Thanks for pulling me up there. Hope you got your $30 worth.

Props2u ---------

You're absolutely correct. Bad - very bad -customer service and completely scattered material offered. I did buy one of his DVD's and the song list parts 1, 2, and 3 were scattered everywhere with no menu -- really a mess and the quality pretty lame. Probably a nice guy but I think greed has definitely set in. I, for one, won't be revisiting.

There are a number of people posting here that are members of PianoMagic. When you read their comments about the course one must understand where they are coming from. I think some could not relate to a more traditional approach such as a teacher. I give them credit to them to accomplish what they want through this course.

However, learning to play by ear is not as easy as people might lead you to believe. First you must pick out the tune. Then you must add the harmony part with your left hand. Have you not then just reinvented the wheel?

There are no shortcuts to learning an instrument, particularly if you want to become proficient at it. You should learn to read music. You should learn theory and harmony. A teacher, although more expensive than PianoMagic, will provide basic skills and a regimen for the learning process.

Assuming you can read music, would it not make more sense to find that song in your head already written out in a fake book. At least you don't have to reinvent it, and can get started on learning how to play it. With the chords already written out you can see the movement of the music. Patterns will emerge such as the standard I-VI-II-V-I.

After working on a number of tunes you might be able to anticipate patterns when playing another tune. You will start to hear in your head a particular chord pattern before you even start to play it.

So I say to those who want to play by ear, perhaps the more traditional approach would jump start your playing. I know I will get a lot of flak from this however, I do not attempt to take away your belief in the course, but only to present another way to look at the process of playing by ear.

If you have difficulty picking out tunes then why not go to the already written out music? If you are trying to figure out which chords go with which melody notes, why not go to the music directly.

I have probably now incurred more of the wrath of the PianoMagic people here, but I am just presenting another way to look at things.

PianoMagic excells in explaining theory. Mike Anderson is one of those rare individuals who is committed to the members of PianoMagic, and I would be the first to nominate him for Piano Sainthood. However I happen to believe that a good grounding in basic music skills should be learned first.

If PianoMagic helps bring you to the place you want to be then all the more Power to you. The goal is to enjoy yourself in your learning process. That said my comments are only to give a little different perspective.

JerryG, with a comment like that, how can I not jump in?!

I am not sure "where [any or all PM-ers] are coming from" either, as each has their own background, goals, learning styles, etc. But anecdotically, I can name several people, including myself, who are PM students, who also have prior lessons in classical and/or jazz and/or pop. I am not sure what you meant by "some could not relate to a more traditional approach such as a teacher". It seems that your implication is that PM-ers chose PM because we can't quite handle traditional lessons, and thus resort to some lesser methods.

I did have a teacher for 10 years, and while no where as beautiful a player as other members of this forum, I am capable of playing grade 6-8 classical pieces. I happen to prefer pop music, and have played those from score too. So I am quite mystified by your statement.

I am not sure what your point is. If play by ear is not as easy as people think, it would seem it's quite legitimate to learn to do that with guidance, via some course. But then you seem to imply that once one picks out the tune and put left hand harmony on, one would have reinvented the wheel - so are you saying it's not a worthwhile endeavor, since it's not easy anyway, so why bother - let's just learn to play by learning to read music alone?

Your statement implies that becoming proficient at an instument equates to learning to read music. Reading music is just one skill out of many. Playing by ear is another. I don't know why you would put one as more superior, almost to the exclusion of the other skill. When we learn to talk/read/write, we don't say that reading is the path to being proficient at talking, do we? In fact being able to talk is a natural prerequisite to reading. It's worth considering that playing-by-ear may also be a worthwhile, or even natural prerequisite to reading music.

To push that analogy further, one can also say that reading, writing and public speaking are very different skills. Being good at one doesn't mean one is natually good at another. Having the skill at one doesn't mean that the other skills should not be developed. It also depends on what skill one likes to have.

It's call freedom! I don't have a memorized repertoire. More than that, I don't even have a score on Happy Birthday. Could I have played something, anything without score prior to PM? NO! Do I want to carry my sheet music to any party, just in case in the spur of the moment, I'd like to play for and with friends? No! Do I want to only play someone else's arrangement? No! Besides, I would say to be able to play a song in the moment based on one's own creative moods and ability is the gift of music making.

I must say that I don't have any particular "belief" about the course. What I am learning is experiential, and not a belief! However after reading your post, I am most curious if you were a member of PM at any point in time, and what you particular objections may be to the method. The reason I ask is that what you said or implied about PM doesn't sound like first hand experience, but an inference, a "belief", you are making about what is taught and how it is taught.

There are other ABF members who have joined PM and quit due to various reasons/preferences of their own. Their posts/comments on PM appeared in various threads. I am always interested about their perspectives, because they gave personal and experiential reasons, and pointed out the whats and whys about PM didn't work for them. Their posts always make sense to me, and show me in a tangible way why PM doesn't work.

Your post, to me, sounds very theoretical. If your basis about PM were accurate, it would be just fine. But there is nothing you said or guessed about PM that sounds like what PM really does! So if you really were learning from PM at one point, I can see why you may have less than satisfactory comments about it, since you didn't really get the essence of it.

It feels to me that the main point of your post is that one should get a proper technical and theoretical training. I have no disagreement with that.

The other point is that with that proper training, the play-by-ear skill would come somehow on its own, (although one paragraph implied that it's not easy, while another paragraph implied that it would come somehow with learning to read music and/or from playing from fake book.) That I have to disagree with. My own experience tells me I do not have the insight on my own to figure out how to play by ear. Other ABF posters who are experienced players (Danny Nikolas is one of the members who comes to my mind) also lament that such a skill is not properly nutured in traditional training.

OK Jerry, you've incurred the first "wrath"! I just want to re-emphasis I have nothing against traditional methods, nor your views of how play-by-ear may or may not fit into the big scheme of piano playing. But I do find your implications about what PM actually is to be theoretical and as such rather erroneous.