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Joined: Dec 2008
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JagNut Offline OP
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I have been using the Miracle Piano Teaching System, which presents the sheet music on the computer screen and grades each performance (either HS, HT or both). I am still at the stage of the early lessons (Three Blind Mice, Brahms Lullaby, etc) that are introducing more hand and finger movement.

I have no quarrels with the suggested fingerings. After trying them out, I can see the logic behind the ones suggested for each piece. Often, however, there are unexpected finger movements. For example, D F B A G B C played as 1 2 5 3 2 4 5. It is easy to see that 5 3 properly positions the hands for the next notes B C played with 4 5. However, since I don't have perfect mental mapping of the notes to the keys, (i.e. - see A on the staff, play A on the keyboard) I have a strong tendency to want to play 1 2 5 4 3 5 5 (especially when I also play chords in the left hand).

A little voice tells me that I may be relying too much on the finger numbers, and I am trying really hard to focus on the notes instead of the numbers. As a sort of crutch, I have been placing red marks at the place (such as above - 5 3 instead of 5 4) where the finger movements are slightly surprising. Is this a bad idea? Should I just work harder on the mental mapping of the notes to the keys so that the unexpected finger movements come more naturally?

A related question might be - if I only had the score with no suggested fingerings, what should prompt me to use 1 2 5 3 2 instead of 1 2 5 4 3? Looking ahead to the subsequent notes? Trial and error?

(I know Gyro will say "Just do what feels comfortable" but I can see the logic in the suggested fingerings and that is what I think I should do).

I have been using the "Piano Keys" exercise at emusictheory.com to try to help me practice the mapping of notes to keys but, at my age (62) the learning is coming slowly. Each day I seem to have forgotten some of what I thought I learned the day before. Other suggestions for developing my mental key map?

Thanks,


Glen
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Hi Glen,
I know what you mean about over reliance on score finger numbers in some training guides. The beginner Czerny exercises have numbers on every note, and I found myself playing just by looking at the numbers, which was a very bad habit.

In your example of needing to switch to 3 on the A, the only way you would know to do that is to recognize that the top note in the phrase was C, so a shift was needed, and that B to A was a good choice for moving the hand. You could also do it by playing A/4 then G/2. I believe you need to reach a fairly high level of sight reading to recognize this sort of thing without numbering on the score.

In practiced repertoire, a shift like that just becomes part of knowing the piece. But in sight reading, especially when there are no numbers, I find myself doing those B/5, C/5 type motions pretty regularly, and according to my teacher, it's not really a problem.

In this instance Gyro may not be totally off base (hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day). There are some sight reading situations where you just need to get to the keys as comfortably as possible, and you don't have time to think about proper fingering.

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I relate to what has been said about getting caught up in reading the finger numbers instead of the actual notes. Been there, done that and IMHO relying on the finger numbers will only slow you down.

As long as your scale fingering is following the accepted norm and you do spend time each day with your scales which finger you use to play a song's melody will take care if it's self. No bad habits will be ingrained that can not be overcome -- at this early stage. At our age, who's counting a few bad habits anyway?

Have fun.

Malcolm

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Originally posted by Glen J:
A related question might be - if I only had the score with no suggested fingerings, what should prompt me to use 1 2 5 3 2 instead of 1 2 5 4 3? Looking ahead to the subsequent notes? Trial and error?
Yes, plus experience. Looking ahead to see if you can position your hands for what is coming next is a very important part of fingering. Also, you need to be able to use ALL of your fingers ALL of the time (don't overly avoid your "weak" fingers) and ignore any rules you might think you have heard such as "no thumbs on black keys".

Finally, remember that the fingerings on the score are not sacred; feel free to experiment with alternatives and change the printed fingerings if you find something more comfortable and efficient (my teacher's advice).

One of the advantages of reading lots of music with editorially-supplied fingerings when you are starting out is that you get to try lots of techniques from experts so that you can begin to appreciate all of the possibilities. In particular, playing Bach from well-fingered student editions (like Alfred Publishing's books) can introduce you to really effective finger contortions that you might never imagine just starting out.

It also helps to have a good teacher who can suggest alternate fingerings for difficult passages but who then leaves it to you to decide on the final choice (my teacher's approach).


Paul Buchanan
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there are some principles on how to do fingerings and what's the best choices of fingerings, basically like these:

- efficiency (less hand shifting)
- comfortable or fit your hand well, unless articulation requires something different
- connecting well from previous passage to next passage
- use the same fingering on the similar patterns
- etc.

you gain a lot of experience on this over time. for a starter, stick to some suggested fingerings unless it does not suit you, because you could learn the fingering principles and ideas from those suggested ones. you'd find out later what's the best way to make your own fingerings.

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A related question might be - if I only had the score with no suggested fingerings, what should prompt me to use 1 2 5 3 2 instead of 1 2 5 4 3? Looking ahead to the subsequent notes? Trial and error?
Fingerings often imply motion, and that motion is often dictated by the music. For example, sometimes you won't be able to get away with your fingering (5, 5 at the end) simply because the speed of the piece is too fast. Other less obvious circumstances certain fingerings are superior are things like dynamics, staccato/legato, ornamentation, etc...

Hopefully I won't fail miserably in describing the following, these things are always hit or miss, but here goes...

In this instance, the motion that the editor wants you to use (whether he knows it or not) is a forearm rotation.

Try this:

Lay your hand palm up on the keyboard to the right of the middle D. Now rotate your hand as if you're closing a book. Use this motion to play the D, and continue rotating until the side of the index finger's knuckle comes into contact with the keyboard (somewhere lower than the D).

Next, rotate your hand back, just reversing the initial motion - use this to play the F with the 2nd finger. Again, you want to follow through, this time until your palm is faceup, as you initially started - in other words, your fingernail will now be on the F.

Here is one of the biggest mistakes I see people make if I show this to them - usually people will use the same rotation that they used for the F to play the B as well. This is a mistake. Instead, rotate all the way back (again by simply reversing your motion) so that your palm is now facing down. The key here is to use one rotation of the forearm for each note.

Now rotate back the other way and play the B with the 5th finger. As before, do an over rotation so that your palm is face up and the fingernail of your 5th finger is on the keyboard.

Here is where, in my opinion, placing the 3rd finger on the A is actually easier than placing the 4th. As you rotate back, you will find that by simply shifting your hand a bit to the right that the third finger falls into place easily onto the A.

Of course, when you play even slow pieces at performance speed, these motions are so small as to be virtually unnoticeable and in fast pieces they're totally invisible unless you know what to look for.


Moderated by  Bart K, platuser 

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