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Help!
Is there a web site that explains IN SIMPLE TERMS note values and their equivalents, and am I the only one who is struggling with this? I think I have a mental block with this stuff, and as much as I'm loving learning to play, I think the theory part of it may just do me in. My teacher is very encouraging and is very patient with me, but I just can't seem to get it. Can anybody help? Thanks, friends.

Theory comes very slowly, but you will get it eventually. Try this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_value

Some things that have helped me:
Beating out the piece with counting.
Writing in the counting.
Counting or beating out pieces I already know (Christmas carols, hymns, pop music, etc).

The most basic unit is the whole note.

whole note = 1
half note = 1/2 (i.e. 1/2 as long as the whole note)
quarter note = 1/4 (i.e. 1/4 as long as the whole note)
8th note = 1/8 (i.e. 8 8th notes per 1 whole note)
16th note = 1/16 (i.e. 16 16th notes per 1 whole note)
...

So it's really just math.

Every time you add another line to the stems, you cut the value in half. So if an 8th note has 1 line, and a 16th note has 2 lines, then 2 16th notes = 1 8th note. If a 32nd note has 3 lines, and a 16th note has 2 lines, then 2 32nd notes = 1 16th note. To get a little fancier, on those same lines..... if a quarter note has no lines and a 32nd note has 3 lines, then 1 quarter note = 8 (i.e. 2x2x2) 32nd notes.

Does that make sense? I know rhythm is hard to play -- understanding it and playing it don't always work together!

Also, try not to think of this stuff as "theory". To me, "theory" or "theoretical" sort of implies that it's only stuff you think about, that's it not really applicable or physical in some sort of concrete way.

This kind of rhythm is actually just as concretely important as being able to read which note to play -- after all, in order to play the piano, at the most basic level, you need to know not only which notes to play, but also how long to play them! You can play two different pieces with exactly the same notes in exactly the same order, but if the rhythm is different, they will sound like two different pieces.

PianoMA, if you have a teacher, your teacher should be able to provide you with some basic material to work through. I'm teaching basic theory to one student on-line currently and we just got to note value. We're using the same theory book I went through so for note value we're just getting into how the notes relate to each other:
1/2 note = 2 1/4 notes
2 1/2 notes = 1 whole note, etc.

There's a note-value "tree" that looks a bit like a family tree. We're doing exercises where you interchange back and forth like in math, as PJ says. Things like "__ 1/2 notes = 1 whole note", except with pictures.

Together with that I'm suggesting to work with actual simple music, beating out rhythms, exploring & experiencing, even analyzing the music you have. Like Pianjerome says, it should not stay theory. You need the theory in the sense that you have to be able to sit down, understand it with your eyes and your mind. Then you have to be able to use it for real as real music, so you go back and forth.

Your teacher should be able to provide you with theory work and exercises, maybe a workbook of some kind. He could give you some rhythm exercises of clapping and chanting to go with it - in other words a systematic thing that addresses rhythm and note value by itself.

Maybe you should ask him specifically for something supplemental that will help you with this issue.

Note values explained with relationships: Note value
As a tree, relating it to an apple being cut up:
Note Value Tree
Rest values: Rest values

No "rest value tree" - google came up with trees, train tracks, and many photos of a squirrel.

How long does one hold the value of say a whole note? The reason I ask is that it seems arbitrary. But once a note is given a value of time then the other notes working off the first note must be held to an exact value or length of time. I'm not a counter, wish I were, I just do it the way I just mentioned, if that makes any sense.

Betty whats your take?

Mark

I count mine as "Onesies".

Most teachers start their students with 1& 2& for whole notes the (&) voiced as "and"

So 1 and 2 and 3 and. The 1 and together counts as a quarter note and a "And" by itself would be an eighth note.

woops I had to edit this, I wrote it wrong.

I think the biggest thing for me when overcoming this hurdle (more so with tempo than note values but it all fits) is that everything is 100% relative based on some arbitrary temporal value. before anyone can apply a "note value" to something you have to decide how fast you are going to play, 100bpm,150bpm, whatever the case may be.

After doing that you need to decide what each beat is equivalent to (eight note, quarter note etc.) Once thats done you can determine each "note value" by adding or subtracting the fractions as necessary. But again, its all relative based on what you choose to use, there is no real rule. If you choose a "beat" to be a quarter note then 4 of them is a whole note, 1/2 of a beat is an eighth note and so on. The important thing is there is never a rule about what to use. Even in tempo markings, such as the term allegretto (a little fast), is very relative based on the notes in the piece.

You can make the music sound faster or slower depending on what you choose your beat to be named as. This also applies to tempo markings: an allegro where there is primarily eighth and sixteenth notes is much slower in regards to bpm than an allergo with mostly quarter notes or half notes, even though it may or could sound roughly the same in speed.

Thats the way I had to do it. Its the only time i had to toss my instructors teachings out the window and work from a concrete base (bpm) to build my knowledge. Now that I get it, i can see where he was coming from and why he was saying what he said. It makes sense now, but back then...forget about it.


LG

Two different ways to think of this which have the same outcome: Counting Note Values.

1) ADDITION from one beat to add longer duration

2) SUBDIVISION from a whole note to make each new note half as big as the previous

Learn to count by clapping a steady beat with which to insert the note values over.
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (each 0 = Quarter Note = "TA"

ADD up from one beat by adding more claps
Quarter Note 1 beat
Half Note 2 beats
Whole Note 4 beats

SUBDIVISION starts with 4 beats
4 beats equals a whole note (notice the symbol)

2 beats equals a half note (add a stem)

1 beat equals a quarter note (shade the white to black)

Half of one beat = an eighth (1/8) note (add a flag to the stem. There are 2/8ths = one beat. (ti-ti)

Where there are 2 or more 1/8 notes a beam can be drawn at the top of the stems. (ti-ti)

1/16 notes have 2 beams. There are 4/16 = one beat. (diddle/diddle)

Search: "Note Value Counting" or simply "counting" (Betty Patnude) (All Forums) will bring you a very useful, alternative counting system based on using syllable to determine the exact length of a note.

Remember everything is based on keeping a steady beat, I would recommend starting slow as in walking, while clapping to get a usable pace. With more expertise, tempos can more faster. But you have to establish accuracy first.

While the sites Keystring has posted are quite helpful, there is room for misunderstanding in the way the written explanations have been explained, I think.

The charts are necessary, the explanations must be accurate, and IMO, there needs to be hands clapping steadily to define an audible duration in sound to measure against and to feel and guide the body movement in both walking and clapping while saying the counting words.

Counting is not simply intellectual information, each pianist needs to be able to create and control the movement of their body (fingers - gestures) to this "accounting" system.

Give it a try with my "Magic Counting.

Betty

I came across this book looking at the Kjos Website.

The Simple Rhythmatician

It is really for band, but I thought it presented a cool and different approach to basic rhythm.

Here is a link to a pdf version of the introduction:

http://www.kjos.com/pdf/brochures/NN0738B-web.pdf

Rich

I would like to recommend "Basic Timing" by Allan Small - it is a playing piano book with one line exercises all written in 5 Finger Position in Key of C (parallel), and can be transposed.

The start simply and add new note values at a time until you have seen everything rhythmically you would want to see.

Try it you'll like it!

Betty

DragonPianoPlayer, I really like what I see in this book. It gives a theoretical understanding behind the proportions in sufficient detail and scope to get a full picture, and be able to work with it. We want the theory and the practice, and there only seems to be a wealth of the latter.

Betty, I found a link to your suggested book which also gives a preview: Basic Timing

Don't feel bad. Back when I used to teach, I inherited many students from other studios who couldn't read music! With every single one of them, it turned out that the notes per se (A, B, C#, etc.) were not the problem. The problem is that they couldn't count note values/rythms. Thus you are not alone in finding this to be challenging - and if you stick with it, you'll get it! Your teacher should be focusing on this for you; it's a very common roadblock but it can be overcome if you don't approach it as if it were a root canal. If you have the time and resources, allow me to suggest that you take beginning drum lessons for a few months. I used to approach counting for my remedial students (some of these kids had been playing in recitals from memory for four or five years - but they couldn't read rythms that were put in front of them! This is why I say "remedial" - it implies something needs remedying, it doesn't mean retarded) by teaching with percussion instruments alone, so they wouldn't also be thinking about the piano keys per se. It seemed to help a lot, and they far more enjoyed playing a tamborine or castinets than just counting and clapping. If I remember correctly, I learned note values by using those "note speller" books that went along with the method book (Schirmer, I think it was) my first couple of teachers used. For an adult they're a tad childish, but you could try looking at one and seeing if it strikes a chord (sorry) with you.

I have moderate problems with reading complex rythms too - but can play better after I already 'feel' it, if I heard the piece many times.

For instance, a 6/8 piece with 8ths in left hand and dotted 8ths before 16ths in right hand. Starting hands at different times becomes confusing !
Would it become easier to convert everything in 1/16ths and start counting "1-and-2- and- 3-and-4-and-5-and-6-and-" so 12 syllables, each of a 1/16 ? (or the equivalent in my Romanian)

And, what is the subtle difference between 6/8 and 3/4 ? The 6/8 song feels more 'flowing', with beats more equal, or it's something else ?

So here's something interesting. (Well, maybe interesting isn't quite the right word for it -- maybe "dumb" is better!) I've been reading everyone's comments, giving the issue of my mental roadblock regarding theory/note values/etc. some thought, and I think what's happened is that I've been so eager to be able to "Play" the piano, that I really have been skimming over all the important things that I should have been paying more attention to. So now, I'm heading directly back to square one, and concentrating on the things I should have been focusing on. Thank you, everyone, for your comments. I promise to be a better student from now on!

ROMagister,

6/8 indicates a compound meter. As such, it is closer to 2/4 than to 3/4. Think of playing in 2/4 time with triplet 8th notes and you have a better feel for why 6/8 feels more flowing than 3/4.

2/4 has the accent pattern: Strong weak / Strong week / on the One two / One two / beats. Think a march for the rhythm - left right / left right / etc. (/ marks the measures)

3/4 has the accent pattern: Strong weak weak / Strong weak weak / on the One two three / One two three / beats. Think a waltz for the rhythm - Left right left / Right left right / etc.

6/8 has the same accent pattern as 2/4 - Strong weak / Strong week / but the accents are on the one and four if you are count eighth notes. You should really be counting this as dotted quarter notes.

9/8 would have the same accent pattern as 3/4 - weak weak / Strong weak weak /.

Hope this helps.
Rich

Compound and simple meter have a different character and this has historical roots. It is a good idea to get a sense of simple meter, then get an understanding of compound meter, and work with either in theory & practically.

Simple meter has the accented patterns that Rich talks about. If you have 3/4 or 3/8 then there are three beats to a bar, and the indicated note value is the value of the beat. So in 3/4, there are three quarter-note-length beats to a bar.

This is something I didn't know.

Compound meter works in packages of triplets. Each package is one beat. To know how many beats there are, see how many multiples of three. 6/8 = 2 X 3 = 2 beats. 9/8 = 3 X 3 = 3 beats. 12/8 = 4 X 3 = 4 beats. Your special numbers are 6, 9, 12 corresponding to 2, 3 and 4 beats. That's the same as simple meter, as Rich indicated.

The triplets inside each beat is known as a pulse. Therefore 6/8 meter has 6 pulses grouped into 2 beats (1-2-3)(4-5-6). In 6/8 time, with the dotted quarter (= 3 eighth notes) at 90 bpm, you set your metronome to 90, and 3 notes will fit into each beat:
click (1-2-3) click (4-5-6), where 1 and 4 are played at the click. I didn't know that part.
So in other words it's (strong triplets) (weak triplets) (weak triplets) with the first triplet of the strongs being accented?