Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Bach 2 part invention 4 BWV 775 -urtext

I've just started to work on this piece and it's a first for me.

Tried the metronome approach and set it around 90 so that I could keep a steady beat (if that's the right terminology). Happy to be learning this Invention - wonder why it's called Invention - anyway, thanks for your input.

invention 4 is great, the first invention i learned too. but i cannot play much of it anymore unless i relearn it. i find all Bach inventions are hard to memorize and too easy to slip away from my fingers...

i guess 'invention' is just a format/form for such compositions (only for Bach at the time) which meant to be like an exercise or study piece for composing techniques. it's sort of like a prelude or to lesser scale a fugue (2/3-part) but doesn't follow exactly those fugue restrictions.

I thought an invention specifically had to have two voices, and then the sinfonia have to have three voices, but I may be wrong. There are inventions and sinfonia written by other composers, so whatever the form is, I think Signa's right, it's like sonata or something else, it refers to the form.

I too am working on Invention #4 right now, I'm having a hard time sticking with it. I did #1 first, and that seemed so much easier to make progress on. (And, truth be told, I'm spending too much time on other pieces right now, whereas I was more dedicated when I worked through #1)

In spite of my lack of devotion to #4, I really like this one, esp the key it's in and the feeling of it. The multi-measure trills are great, I haven't played much music with that sort of thing (esp in the LH) so it's a bit of a challenge, but excellent practice!

you're right, Shiro, but sinfonia is sometimes called 3-part invention. either way, it means the same thing. i did remember reading about 'invention' name from Bach's time which Bach chose for those compositions while there're nothing similar of such form then from his comtemporaries at the time.

For some reason, I'm looking forward to learning this piece and have so far found it challenging - until my next lesson this Thursday, I've been using the fingerings that are indicated by the Urtext editors - this is a first for me.

My teacher usually takes care of that so I hope that I'm on the right track.

Thanks for all the information. Trying to figure out how to put the metronome to good use. Slow but not to slow, want to keep an even tempo.

I played that invention too. Working on a correct fingering makes it much easier, so... yes, you're in the right track. If you wish... you could study by bars, starting at a low tempo to make sure that you're doing it correctly, then, speed up, and when you know you've done it the right way, continue with the next bar.

Enjoy invention 4, inventions are really fun to play.

I just finished memorizing that piece about 2 weeks ago. I put a recording of me playing it on my website:
http://www.quixium.com/zip/Bach_2_Part_Invention_No4_Barbara_Chambers_6_13_2006.mp3
You can see that I haven't quite decided how to manage the tempo right, but I definitely don't think it needs to be played as fast as possible, nor do I like to play it with a mechanically rigid tempo. The piece has a definite climax, right at measure 42. I like to apply a lot of force there. Then, the piece unravels, sliding downhill to a snug conclusion, two D's two octaves apart under the fermata.

The left hand trill, 5 solid measures long right in the center of the piece, makes this piece into an etude. It's a real beast. I figure if I play it 1000 times it'll be good for me.

The extent of the staccato for the stand-alone eighth notes is a puzzle to me. Very short, medium, or barely staccato - and should the extent of the treatment be consistent throughout, or can one vary it in keeping with the theme? That is, whenever a pattern appears the second time in the left hand, one can try accentuating the staccato more than was the case when the motif first appeared. I can't quite pull this off the way I want but maybe later it'll fall into place.

You can hear the spots where I put embellishments:
(1) The dotted eigth note G in measure 17, a GAGAG trill.
(2) The trill in measure 37 on the B-natural, I trill to the C similarly, BCBCB.
(3) The last one is a trill on the E just before the last D in measure 51, which requires a radical meno mosso but I like doing that too. Anything else seems too abrupt.

This is a piece one can work on for a long time and try all sorts of little things. Anyway, this is where I am with it at the moment.

[Recording: I used a M-audio pro sound card, and a direct connection to my Kawai MP8 piano, set to "Concert Grand 2".]

"Invention" is a musical form, just as a fugue is a musical form, though it isn't terribly specific at all.

Basically, there is a subject, and the composer *invents* different ways of developing the subject in two or more voices (doesn't have to be only two voices). How the voices are developed is generally up to the composer - there is no real form that the music has to follow, because the development is what is most important.


Here is a very short, interesting article:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/mus303/week3.html#top

Wow, the first time I've posted a recording of something I actually played, and no one makes any comment about it... I hope that's because it's not interesting, rather than that it is bad and no one wants to embarrass me by saying so. Well, it IS bad, compared to a real pianist, but we're beginners here, after all...

I'm sorry Barbara, I tried to download it, but I couldn't. Is there any other way? Thank you.

Barbara - same problem - I get Page Not available - go away - your not welcome here -OK OK it just says not available.

I listened to it Barbara.

Hey, it plays just fine for me!

You want some gentle critical commentary? Well, you're gonna get some anyway.

I like the tempo variation you put in toward the end. A purist might disagree, but Bach keyboard music is nothing if not flexible!

For my tastes, I like a faster pace. But you're right that people can easily get carried away here (just see Czerny's marked tempo!).

One thing I would try to do is to mesh the hands more perfectly together.

Perhaps I'll record it on my silly laptop and post it. I'm not a beginner, but I'm no expert either. You'll see how differently I play it. I also use a different ending that is two octaves lower.

Piano*Dad, by all means, please post your recording. Barbara's recording has inspired me to do one of my own as well, and I am sure to play it slower than she did, but also I think I play a few different embellishments and use different phrasing, so it would be great to be able to hear what we're all doing differently.

Barbara - got it to play (my firewall was blocking for some reason...) You amaze me - it's all I can do to get through scales, Alfred lesson, and Humphries lesson....to play that many notes for that long without clunkers is beyond my comprehension. I was thinking of getting the Bach inventions from Amazon (the one from Palmer of Alfred fame)but when will I find time to play it.....I admit I want to play like you, so maybe I'll just order it up, and spend less time on simple versions of "morning has broken" and attack Bach. I would just love to play like that.

Thanks everyone for the comments...

As far as the lh-rh desynchronization, it's pretty obvious that that's due to my limited technical abilities, it's not intentional by any means.

I've been experimenting with the tempo changes in the piece. The tempo slowdown in measure 36-37 is probably what you're talking about. It somehow feels right to me to dwell on that high note a bit, since it is the "tipping point" of the whole composition.

It's always nice to get reactions like that and I appreciate it. It's very encouraging when even a shaky, amateurish performance like this is liked by someone. Bach is enormously fun.

Here's a quick take on that invention. Bach scares me. Getting it right with a live mic is .....stressful. Even so, there's a nice clinker in here.

I'm an adult, but not a beginner [Hey, some might question whether I'm an adult sometimes, and that's OK], though I often feel a greater kinship with folks here than where the real experts reside. That's why posting here is my preference.

Here's the podcast:

Piano*Dad & Piano*Son Podcasts

Best,

David F

Here's stanza 1, for reference. Should I post the rest?

That was great! You used the same ornamentation I did except that you added a trill in measure 48 on the C#, and you did your final trill on the F in measure 52 instead of how I did it on the E. The way you did it there is less impact on the overall rhythm there and the decrease in tempo is more gradual. I think most of your trills were 3-note ones, where I was attempting to do 5 note ones. I read that in the Baroque period a lot of the trills started on the higher note. For instance, the final trill would be GFGF as I understand it, instead of FGF or FGFGF. Anyway thanks for sharing that with us. I couldn't find the file. It seems that the site you put it on called it a "podcast" but doesn't allow downloading, only streaming, so I had to mess around with Quicktime to try to get it to stream. I finally ended up in Opera 9.0 and that worked ok. There might be advantages if you made the file itself available next time.

You're certainly not a beginner, your technique is too good. I would love to be able to go that fast, but even if I could my taste is usually to go slower with Bach. One thing, is that my copy of the music has footnotes that indicates that the eighth notes are to be played lightly staccato, and I noticed you are connecting them almost legato. Certainly nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, but I found it does make it sort of fun to do the fast hand legato and the slow hand staccato throughout the piece. It seems to add some kind of extra layer. That took me a while to get working. I'm using "Bach 2 and 3 Part Inventions" edited by Hans Bischoff. Kalmus piano series #3044 published by Belwin Mills, copyright 1943. Although it isn't labeled "urtext" its many references and footnotes comparing the various autographs and early editions make it clear that it considers itself to be an urtext. Maybe in 1943 the term wasn't in vogue like it is now. This is my mother's copy she got while in college (she was a music teacher.) Well, you inspired me to see if I can work in another trill in measure 48. That'll probably take me a week or so :-) I'm terribly slow learning anything new.

Barbara,

I'm using an old 1968 Palmer edition that does a really good job of editing and explaining. The autograph parts are dark and the editor's marks are in light grey.

You are indeed right about playing the eighth notes detached and the sixteenth notes legato. That's the tradition. Sometimes I emphasize that, and sometimes I don't. I guess this recording was one of the don'ts!

My edition puts in a lot of optional ornaments (in light grey). I use them all (measures 17, 48, and 51) but I actually drop one that is marked in the autograph (measure 15, which I don't like)

Actually, all of my trills are four notes starting on the upper (as in CBCB in measure 37). Wouldn't three notes be a mordant starting on the note itself and then either going up or down depending on the marking?

This was the first time I used the podcast feature of my new Mac. I'm having fun with my new toy. Indeed it requires quicktime to stream. I hadn't thought of that. I have a web page where I store some higher quality recordings of mostly my son.

That's here: Piano Page

Best,

David

Yeah, I just had to ask you to share a recording, didn't I? It's my own fault, I know. Sigh.

Piano*Dad, that was... really fast!!! Oh, and extremely nice by the way! I loved it. But now how am I supposed to get the courage to post my own "Sunday driver" speed?

You're playing it basically exactly the way I *want* to play it. The only thing I do differently (besides play at MM=20) is that I don't play that last trill you do. What edition is your score? is it an urtext?

BTW (am now on my fourth listen) how in the heck did you get such a fantastic recording quality with just the internal mic? My laptop is being delievered tomorrow, you can bet I'll be trying that!

Shiro,

Looks like we cross posted. See above for edition information. The Palmer edition I have goes through about a dozen pages explaining baroque ornamentation at the begining of the book. It's neat.

One thing that helps me get the best out of the internal mic is probably placement. My old Kawai is nested in with the new beast so I use the Kawai lid as a stand and I open up the Grotrian lid on the long stick. That means the laptop is about eighteen inches away from the Grotrian's treble strings (which may account a little for treble dominance in the sound). I think you want to have a direct path for the sound to hit the laptop rather than leave the laptop on the ground receiving only indirect sound.

P.S. my edition lists metronome markings for various editions and for several performers of the time. The range is 58 for Landowska to 84 for George Malcolm. Palmer suggests 60-66.

Piano*Dad - excellent.... after hearing you and Barbara play, I am convinced I need to order the book. I am looking at the Palmer edition and notice you use it...it gets some bad press on Amazon - I take it you like it from you post, but how about for a beginner? Is it "confusing" (according to posts on Amazon..)?

My teacher way back when preferred urtext editions, but she didn't make me throw away this book. Actually, I do like the Palmer edition because it gives editorial suggestions that represent what a lot of people actually have done with these pieces, but it keeps those comments in a noticeably lighter shade so you don't confuse it with the autograph. I'm not an edition snob, and I may be easy to please. If the autograph parts of the edition are in error, that would be a problem, but I value the suggestion in this edition and the discussion of ornamentation was useful.

OK -Thanks....As I need all the help I can get, I am ordering it this morning.....now if I will actually use it..., oh well, good intentions in any case.....

Yes indeed, I was using the term "trill" rather generically. I'm playing mordents, or rather double mordents. See
http://www.interactivemusicnetwork.org/glossary/Mordent.htm

What is a mordant? Strange as it may seem, I've never seen term.

Thanks.

Pardon my earlier misspelling. It is indeed mordent, not mordant (unless your satire is biting).

A mordent is just a three note ornament that starts on the note marked. A basic trill is four notes, usually starting above the note.

For instance, a mordent on C would either be

CBC (a downward mordent), or
CDC (if it is played upward).

The basic trill would be

DCDC

Thanks, sorry for the typo - wrote my question late last nite and didn't catch it.

Excellent job Barbara. I find your recording inspiring.

Could someone tell me at what level an adult beginner could start to tackle Bach's inventions? Six months, one year, two years? And if one finds the inventions too difficult, what should one work on to bring themselves up to speed in order to tackle the inventions?

Oh! I love this invention! I would love to show you a video of me playing this invention, if you let me

I just have to take a new look at it, since I played it the third month! I'll ask my father to make a video, and I'll tell you how do I feel this piece.