I also have 1-3-5 in my music (Chopin -- Selected Works for Piano Book II, Compiled and Edited by Keith Snell.)

But I think 2-4-5 is also a good alternative. I may try it, which means I have to change the fingering for the following notes in measures 3 & 4.

I like to try different fingerings. That's just me.

I just tried the 1-3-5 approach and I liked the way it felt by itself. But I can also appreciate the way 2-4-5 prepares the left hand to accomodate the rest of the notes in the same measure(s).
Guess I'll need to work with it a bit more to see which one will likely work better when I start to increase the tempo.

Hey Guys:

Are we talking about the same measure? Please pull up the following. This is a copy of the
3rd measure in my version. There's no way you could use a 135 fingering in that measure.

The LH has to play 4 on the Aflat and 2 on the Gflat. The RH plays a Eflat with 3. Plus you have to have the 5 finger ready to play the Aflat immediately after the chord, not to mention that you have to hold down the Aflat while the thumb (LH) goes from Aflat to Bflat, which is held while the 5 in the LH is playing the Aflat! Wow!

Maybe your version shows something else for this measure.

http://www.savefile.com/files/4042360

Kathleen

I think you may have said Ab where you meant C a couple of times, but if I'm understanding correctly, that's totally how I play it. I can place 5 on the Ab, 3 on the C, and 1 on the Bb quite comfortably. (I know, not dainty little girl hands.) Probably not a good fingering unless you can open your hand wide enough for this stretch.

The measure is the same. My music shows 1-3-5 (actually 1-3 because 5 is already on A-flat from the previous measure.) But I think I may prefer 2-4-5.

So, 5 = A-Flat, 4 = C, 2 = G-flat.

It is totally up to you, one way or the other.

I always find myself adapting as I go along.

I think you meant 5 on the Ab, 3 on the C, and 1 on the G-flat[/b]!

I have to agree that the 5 4 2 approach allows for easier play of the aflat and bflat. Otherwise you are hitting three notes in a row with that thumb (Gflat, Aflat, Bflat). Playing the Gflat with the second finger I think also allows for a little more legato.

I just played it several times...

I like the way 1-3-5 feels, initially.

But I think I'm going to prefer 2-4-5 in the long run because it seems to me to accomodate the rest of the notes a little better.

[Edit: (2-4-5 seems to be the crowd favorite)]

No, I meant Bb. I was thinking ahead to the biggest stretch, on the second beat. That's where the 1-3-5 fingering may cause problems (or be less comfortable) depending on your hand shape. Sorry... People always tell me I speak without giving proper context.

Ah, yes I use 1 on the second beat!

.

This is the way I do it, on the 3rd measure I think it might be what Pianolina does, I use :

finger 5 on A flat,finger 3 on C,finger 1 on G flat and then I stretch over with finger 1 over to the B flat on the next beat[/b]

...moving on,

I would LOVE to see ANYONE accomplish the suggested fingering for the Db-C-F left hand chord in measure nine. My score suggests: 5-3-1 (all with the left hand)....I know, I know, split it up & play the Middle-C with your right hand.

Still, if anyone can play that as suggested in my book, PLEASE take a picture of it & post it in this thread. (some things I just gotta see to believe )

Jeff, since the chord is rolled that's not that tough. My score has no fingering so I've been doing it 5 2 1 but I tried it 531 and it makes sence (I think). It allows you to then play the d flat with your second finger without having to lift it off the c flat first.

rolled

I'm using a Henle & some other edited version & neither of them suggest the chord is rolled...what's with that?

Split it up. My music suggests right hand plays the F4 and F5, using 1 and 5 fingerings, naturally.

Left hand plays the D-flat and C4 (middle C), also with 1 and 5 fingerings.

My edition (edited and fingered by Joseffy) definitely has it rolled. I agree with you, if it's not rolled that's a wicked stretch.

No way is that chord rolled!! Sorry, Peyton.


Jeff, I'm sure you meant a Cflat but it's still impossible for anyone who has normal-sized, even extra-large hands. I have the same fingering notation. I wonder if Chopin played it this way. I doubt it.

I see no other way other than to split it up as Jeff suggested and it's actually not that bad if you remember to go from the Eflat (3)in the RH to using a 5 for the F. Then you'll be ready for the 15 stretch on the F's in the RH. I play the LH with a 5 on the Dflat and 1 on the Cflat, then the 2 is ready for the Dflat.

I'm even confusing myself.

I think once we get through these two measures our fingers will be stretched to their fullest capacity and ready to conquer the rest of the piece.

Oh God, I hope so!

Kathleen

Just so you don't think I'm nuts...



I have to agree, just about any fingering without a split or roll is pretty tough.

This is how my score shows it also.

Sorry to be late to the party but I'd like to join in also. I'm a bit behind you guys though! This piece may be beyond me, but I love it and would like to give it a try.

Welcome SAS:

I thought I didn't recognize your name. We'e glad to have to join in as you can see the more the merrier as far as "debating" different versions and different (and crazy) fingerings. Please do join in and add your comments and/or advice whenever you feel the need.

You are not "behind" us. Most of us are(there are a few :p who are keeping pretty quiet and I'm thinking they probably have already finished the piece ) doing a bit of struggling with the first two bars. However, I think by the end of the week, we'll be through it.

Sorry Peyton about that rolled chord. I had the same problem with another Chopin prelude that had a chord that was very difficult to play, so the publisher just rolled it. When my teacher saw it, she almost fainted. It wasn't fun having to "unroll" it after playing it rolled for about a year.

Fingering: As mentioned before, you don't have to use what is suggested. What works for you is fine. But sometimes when someone has come up with a different combination, it could be useful to the rest of us to know about.

That said, forward...ever forward!

I'm going to be busy today (still spending a couple of hours at the keyboard with the prelude and other pieces). However, I was "appointed" head of the annual multi-block garage sale this year. Flyers to print out and distribute (100), posters to make, and last, but not least, bringing some of the junk up from my basement and starting to price. Ugh!!

Have a productive day,
Kathleen

Just reporting in. Have the first 3 bars (first 14 measures) more or less melodic and plan to spend the rest of the week bringing them up to speed. I plan to tackle the next three next weekend, and so on. FWI I'm playing the disputed chord 5-2 in my left hand and 1-5 in my right.

An aside. Chopin didn't allow his students to roll chords unless it was specifically indicated by the composer. He expected them to cope. Splitting was right up his alley. His hands were little too.

Well I'm convinced. And spliting it makes it so easy. I'm going with the 5-1 in the left hand. Playing the following dflat with a 2 seems to set my hand up nicely for the following gflat/dflat chord with the 5-3.

It does make you wonder why Joseffy (Tausig's student and one of the great performers of his day) and Henle and others wrote it for the left hand alone? And as Jeff asked, how could anyone play that chord with a 5-3-1? I can barely play it with a 5-2-1 and I have a fairly large hand.

I'm taking a break from sorting out my junk.

Yes, Frycek is right. Of course, I haven't looked at or played all of Chopin's compositions (I'd be touring the world if I could), but I don't recall ever seeing a rolled chord in any of his works. I could be wrong, and I know someone will catch me on this if I am.

Also Chopin never composed anything that he, himself, could not play...small hands not withstanding. This may seem obvious, but there were and probably are some composers who would purposedly create a piece that was impossible (for even him/her) to play, just to be nasty.

I am so gratified to learn (from Frycek) that I was OK (with Chopin) to split that chord in the 9th measure.

Speaking of making adjustments, I am assuming that we all way to play the piece as originally written...that is not leaving anything out. Changing fingering is perfectly acceptable; however, should we come to a spot where we just can't get all the notes in, what should we do?

I do remember some piece (maybe some other composer) that I just could NOT play a chord as written, no matter how hard I tried or how many adjustments I made. My teacher, at that time, suggested I just leave out the one note that was making it impossible for me.

I sort of cringed at the idea, thinking the composer would be rolling around in his grave. I don't think I ever continued with it, just for that reason...good or bad.

So what would you do if/where/should you get to a part in this prelude that you just can't manage?

I'd vote for leaving out that note that is giving you the problem. Who knows that maybe after you have finished the composition, your hands/fingers will be stronger and you can go back to that chord and give it another shot.

What say you all?

Back to my junk!

Kathleen

Maybe it's just this score book I have but I see lot's of rolled chords. When you have a chance look at 28/10. It's written in mine with rolls and Ivo Pogorelich rolls them on my recording. Are they rolled in yours? (And if you really want to see some rolls check out his etude 10/11. )

All the same...I think I may grab myself another book of preludes. What edition would be closest to what Chopin wrote? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Frycek
well just when I thought I might be a little ahead.
okay, it's back to the back of the room for me

A side note - I didn't say there were no rolled chords in Chopin, just that he didn't want his students to roll them unless it they were written purposely that way by the composer. Apparently the composer in question was sometimes himself. There are a couple of rolled chords (actually the same one twice) in Chopin's nocturne Op 37, no 1 which I'm also working on. They are a bit decorative and performed that way on the recording I have. This is in a Henle urtext edition and the roll is clearly indicated. My textural knowledge of Chopin is pretty limited so I doubt if that's the only example.

Yea, I went looking and found rolled chords in his Etudes, Nocturnes and even some Mazurkas. This has all been interesting to me because I had never questioned markings before (other than fingering). I posted a question regarding rolled chords on the other forum and I'm seeing that the roll marking can be dependent on how large the chord is. If it's an octave or under you can assume the composer wanted it to sound that way. Over an octave and it can be that the composer wanted it that way or more likely, written in to make the hand more comfortable.

I think I may go out and get the urtex edition of the preludes...

Can someone more knowledgable than I help Peyton with her request for a more accurate version of Chopin's Preludes?

Whooaa! I just looked in my Schirmer's Library of Musical Classics - Chopin Album. And would you believe that chord is rolled in this edition? And here I thought Schirmer was an accurate edition and I was going to recommend it to Peyton.

Someone (sorry I can't remember who) had The Complete Preludes- Alfred edition (I think Alfred's stuff is very good). She said that the book was great in that it gave a lot of information about Chopin and his style and also had gray shadings of possible fingering. I have the Alfred - Introduction to Chopin, which has about 15 of his lesser known and easier works and it came with a CD. I think the book/CD was about $15.00. However, I don't think the Prelude book comes with a CD.

Boy, I wish the publishers would say on front of the book: WE HAVE TAKEN LIBERTIES WITH THE COMPOSITIONS WITHIN. THEY ARE NOT IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM.

Kathleen

Kathleen, it's no big deal. If anything I'm finding this all very interesting (my edition is Schirmer by the way). If not for you and the study group I would not have questioned the markings and now will look and listen more carefully. Sorry to have dwelled on this for so long

I'm a guy by the way :p .