Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Weekly Lessons - is there a REAL alternative?

Yes, there are real alternatives. I have a 2-3 hour lesson once every 4 weeks - this suites me fine. The lesson is long enough to get into some nitty gritty detail and the gap between is long enough so that I can usually find some practice time. However, there is exactly nil expectation of progress when I go to a lesson, which is as it should be for adults with a busy life - flexibility being the key. Love it - and I am ever so gradually learning to see what he sees...

Probably worth a flight from Hamburg to Cardiff once a month...

I agree with Betty that small increments of time invested in learning to play the piano can pay off big time. What I don't agree with is the implication that a teacher is required for that investment.

Although the money going into the bank may be somewhat greater with a teacher - to follow the investment analogy - any investment at all will increase one's assets.

I try to find time to practice every day and in two months without a teacher, I am two thirds through the Alfred's self teaching book. And I'm loving it.

So once again, if you can afford the time and money for a teacher, great, but it is not the only route for many of us.

I wasn't sure how my post would be read so I'm relieved it seems to have been taken by all in the manner I intended

I, personally, know that a teacher (and an advanced one at that) is required for me to make progress with which I am satisfied. As I took lessons for much of my childhood and majored in music ed (altho I wasn't able to complete the degree for other reasons) I have a pretty traditional view of what is necessary for _me_ to feel I am playing well and making progress.

So I will "keep on keepin' on." Unfortunately the economic situation has hit my place of work very hard and mandatory unpaid overtime is going to continue. If I don't get the job done I will lose it. Of course if I do get the job done I might lose it anyway (sigh). I just hope that I won't have to cancel many more lessons at the last minute when the boss says "it has to be done tonight"

It's probably true that any investment at all is better than nothing, but at my age time is often more important than money. Could I quit lessons and work on my own with some good results? Sure. Can I make more progress more quickly with a teacher. No question.

I don't want to look back on each year of study and say "Well, I did okay but I could have done more". Once it's gone I can't get the year back, but if I can can get more for it with the expense and scheduling hassles of regular lessons, it's an easy decision for me right now.

ProdigalPianist:
I hope that you didn't take my comment as meaning that anything less than "daily" would be a waste of time. I understand fully what you are going through. You can only do your best given your situation. And I'm sure your teacher feels that something is better than nothing as well. It sounds as though you aren't quite happy with things either, and that is a concern. Don't pressure yourself to do the impossible...it will only add to your frustration.

On a side note, have you ever thought about using a crock pot for dinner? There are tons of great recipes that take very little time to prepare, and you come home to a meal already cooked after a long day!

...once a month would be a little too expensive for me LaValse But, you've guessed it, I'm still having problems finding that elusive 'right' teacher for me :rolleyes:

Hi cruiser, I wondered if you'd read that - I'm having a lesson tomorrow and intend to ask him if he knows anybody in your area...

Often as possible yes - but to suggest it needs to be every week IMO is wrong. I have seen some remarkable results from students who have fortnightly or even monthly lessons.

To suggest you should have 1 hour minimum is again wrong IMO. When at the RCM in London they didn't insist on 1hr lessons . . . very good outcomes can be gained from 30min lessons. In fact I would not suggest more than 30mins for anyone below about grade 5 standard.

Are you suggesting that because someone doesn't have a 1hr piano lesson every week that they aren't commited?? 'Wholely commited' will depend on ther individual and their stage of life. A working person who has a 30 min lesson every week and practises every day is in my opinion commited - by your definition they are not . . . .

Indeed. I completely agree here

I normally let differences of opinion pass (afterall that makes the world interesting ). However in this case I think some of your views are a bit insular and perhaps smack a little of elistism.

Mike,

With 38 years under my belt of teaching I guess I do sound a little know it all and pompous and this creates argumentative discourse. What I'm using as information is my experiences and all that I know about piano study - there are pro's and con's to what's in the "all" I know. I work daily in my piano life and always have as there are many things to do done besides teaching the music page and the student.

There are many arrangements under which a piano teacher will teach. The one that I think works best for the adult student and teacher is the consistant one that paces and paves the way for a successful and progressive outcome.

quote: Originally posted by Betty Patnude:
"If you let a good teacher mentor and guide you, you will get to your destination faster which in the long run saves you money and time and brings success and progress to your endeavor." And, I''l add the part that you so completely agree with here: "Indeed. I completely agree here"

I think that what I am advocating here is effectiveness and efficiency, not elitism. And, I think most productive teachers wouldn't mind being called insular - is it an insult? I will hit the dictionary to see what you meant. And, I will read your "How to Practice" link, too. Then we'll talk again if necessary about "elite" and "insular".

Try remembering that if an adult student studied half an hour for 40 weeks - 52 weeks per year that would only give them 20 - 26 hours of time with the teacher per year. Do the math! Does that really seem adequate?

Betty

Well I would! I'd much rather be called open and eclectic, and flexible. I'm flexible with my adult students and it works for us. I reject the notion that half-hour lessons result in a "weak outcome". It's not the amount of time but what you do with it. My students are making solid progress, and they don't feel they have to beat themselves up if circumstances force them to miss a day's practice.

What role does practice play in the equation?

On a similar thought, I've been thinking about the notion that when we are taught something, we lose part of it during the week. For that reason teachers recommend more frequent lessons. Is this necessarily true, or might the opposite also happen?

However, there are times when we "get" the concept but we can't execute it well during the lesson. During the week we work toward doing this thing, and over the days we get closer and closer to it. By Day 5 you might be closer to what you were taught, than on the day it was given, because your body and mind know what to do. In that case you would get *better* over the days, not worse?

Since that has been my experience, I think I need time between lessons to absorb and internalize what was in the lesson. The way we concentrate when working on our own is not the same as when we are with a teacher. They have a different nature. If lessons are too frequent, there is no chance to concentrate deeply on what you are doing and make it part of you.

Does anyone else have that experience?

Figured I'd stick an oar in here.

I'll probably languish in abject mediocrity (stealing a phrase from Piano*Son) for the rest of my life.

I'm quite convinced that I would make more (or some ) progress with weekly lessons, regular practice and an excellent teacher.

But I'm not in a position to pay for lessons. It breaks my heart that we had to cancel my kids' lessons, and I'm hoping that it won't last forever.

But one prioritizes. If, for example, I'd rather keep my home and feed my kids than pay for piano lessons, then I can live with being a "weak" player! :p

Thank goodness for Piano World!

At odds with some posters in this topic, I will stick by what I'm saying about more lessons, longer lessons.

I can always tell when a student is getting a passion for piano lessons, the lessons start to go over the 30 minute time, and we find 5 - 10 additional minutes creeping it because the student wants to do just a little more, or there is something I need to say at the moment.

If not said right now, that moment may never come again. My 12:45 lesson (an 8 year old with a new classical book "Masterworks - Jane McGrath-Alfred Pub. with CD Level 1-2" today). She was so excited that we added 3 new songs to her lesson mix of Dennis Alexander Just for You book and she did hands alone under construction and fingering choices very accurately and we talked about practice points that would help her make progress to put hands together. We exceeded our lesson time by 15 minutes, as we had done the previous week. She is a candidate for an hour lesson.

My 2:30 also had some new materials last week and they are at a higher level than she has played before 3# and 1/16 notes tied, and coordination challenges. We developed patterns and color coded them on the page, and defined what the component parts were and how they work together. When the first page is complete, the other 3 pages of the piece have lots of repetitions and some variations that will go a lot easier.

One of the good things about both pieces is that she is accessing the different registers of the keyboard much more compently than before.

We spent a lot of time on octaves (LH) with the 2nd finger activing as a swival for small hands that can't quite reach. She is 10 and the light bulbs constantly go on in her head. We exceeded her lesson by 10 minutes.

I have always been known to go over when the opportunity to use time and effort well is there in the mix.

I don't really keep a time clock accurately - and when the student is ready I take advantage of it.

I will understand that some people can not make the same commitment for various reasons, but for those who can and do, the difference in the outcome and the happiness of one who can spend time developing at the piano is so evident and so much a part of exceeding our goals. To get into that frame of mind is a gift and a rare bird.

Minimalism or maximization?

I truly feel empathetic to those having financial challenges that have interrupted their music study. My widowed mother found a teachers who would teach me for $1 per lesson, later going to $3 when I was in public school. They were godsends. This is back when (1952-1960) when she paid for her refrigerator by putting quarters in the slot on the side of it until the payment had been accumulated for the month. Nothing was easy in our household. Underpriviledged was a word I learned early in life.

So being so grateful for my opportunites in music, I just feel that when you find it, and it's important to you, you are going to immerse yourself in making music in whatever way is possible for you.

I'm not the person that so many of you think I am but I will just have to live with that as it's part of the challenge of posting on the internet.

I've been told many times for many years, that I have a great sense of humor, love people, open minded and a possibility thinker, and that I have lots of patience, I'm sincere, and I'm real. I'd like to believe that!

Does that sound like an insular person? I didn't think so.

We should all laugh more and say gratitude for the good things.

I wish everyone well!

Betty

Betty, considering the financial challenges your mother faced, and the effort she put into getting you lessons...how would she have felt if a piano teacher had told her she was 'just not sufficiently committed' and 'apparently your family did not really care about piano lessons' if she was not willing to pay $5 or $10 per lessons multiple times a week? I'm guessing she would have been very upset if not heartsick.

I don't think anyone is really arguing with you that more time with a good teacher (who, naturally, deserves to be paid well for the expertise) is better. FOr me, anyway, that's a no-brainer.

It is also a no-brainer that I 'should' practice more. That I would get so much more out of lessons and the piano if I did (well, duh) .

You are justifying the wrong message. The message that is upsetting many adult beginners (and, as I said before, it is certainly not just coming from you) that, because we don't have (at least) weekly one hour lessons and practice an hour or more a day we are just not committed enough and must not really care that much about piano.

That message is, frankly, insulting, hurtful and, at this point, seems to be the result of willfully misunderstanding or ignoring what many adult students say about their situation!

I aspire to the level of abject mediocrity that rustyfingers has! I'm not quite there yet, tho

What's a challenge for me right now, and will keep me growing:

2 friends and I (both much better musicians than me) are getting together on Sunday afternoons to play swing tunes - and, *if* I happen to have sheet music it's not in keys they want to play in (neither of them plays horn, Eb is not *home* for their instrument ) - so there you are. Instant trial by fire for transposing in real time. And I work on it thru the week, too. And learning to sing and play at the same time. Harmony.

Wednesday night jams - old time, Irish, Scottish, swing, blues, songs - again, stretch for by-ear, bass lines, from memory, lots of new tunes.

gigs - St Patrick's is coming up. contra dances, duos with a harpist, weddings, bar mitzvahs, graduations, birthday parties, anniversary parties, charity fund raisers, ceilidhs - I can't even remember all the stuff we play at. Sort of the ultimate motivation for getting something up to speed and polished.

ABF recitals. Ai-yi-yi! I only have 3 days to get Audacity reinstalled and get my selection recorded and entered!

I learn from all of it. And every musician, no matter what instrument. And from listening. And from reading PW.

I definitely have time to learn - but not from traditional lessons, no matter how many times a week/month. For the stuff I play - I don't even think there *are* lessons - we all learn from the music community - each other.

I had 2 years of formal lessons as a teenager. Believe me, that was enough At the end of them, with Poet and Peasant Overture being my "hardest" piece, I still had no idea what it was to play music. 30+ years later it took about twice thru the oom-pah part of a dance tune and there was music everywhere. And I suspect, since I know people who've done it, that one could learn to do the oom-pah part of dance music on a piano without formal lessons, and could build on it.

To each our own

Cathy

Our hearts go out to ProdigalPianist ... never ... ever ... on any Forum thread have I heard such life-clinging passion for the piano than ...

"The reason that I keep struggling to accomplish anything at the piano is that, often,
PLAYING THE PIANO IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF SATISFACTION AND ENJOYMENT I GET IN LIFE."

Any crass piano teacher who presumes to add one patronizing comment on how PP could better plan her day, deserves to be excommunicated from all fields of piano tuition.

However, Prodigal Pianist might like to avail herself of the vast and imaginative resources which can be discovered in the very membership of the Forum ... QUOTE THE PIECE OF MUSIC you’ve got your heart set on ... and out will pour top notch advice from the friendliest of members .

This ploy is often the only piano tuition available for cash-strapped members ... and the guidance has the advantage of being DAILY.

unfortunately, some piano teachers, such as Betty, might not understand adult students and don't really know how different we are from kids in learning piano.

i'm sure she's out of good intention saying all that her ideas about lessons and she cares about her students, kids or adults. but being a piano teacher itself doesn't guarantee the deeper understanding of adult students' learning process and experience. you can't blame her when she just doesn't see it...

Let me just say, that when my ship comes in, I know exactly who I will ask to be my piano teacher. There's no doubt in my mind that that would be the right course for me.

But I see no reason to criticize those who get pleasure working on their own. We certainly have a number of examples of the self-taught here who are making lovely music. Could they have progressed faster, or have better technique with a good teacher? Probably. But if they are meeting their goals, they are doing what they want.

There is room for the amateur piano player who has other priorities--maybe a child with an illness, important volunteer work, a demanding job with incessant travel, difficult financial circumstances, or all of the above.

I realize this thread has turned a little bit into a pigpile on Betty, because she came on very strong.

But I can certainly respect her viewpoint (although I may be taken aback by her manner ) given her experience.

This thread certainly opened some interesting discussion. To add to my original posting can I say that after Christmas I made the decision that I would continue with my lessons until the end of term (June) and after that I will use the wealth of knowledge I have gained to work on my own, building up a nice repetoire of pieces/tunes I can play for my entertainment.

I don't smoke, I drink very little, I work hard every day and seldom go out. My wife says that my lessons are my only 'treat' in life.

Prodigal Pianist said: "Betty, considering the financial challenges your mother faced, and the effort she put into getting you lessons...how would she have felt if a piano teacher had told her she was 'just not sufficiently committed' and 'apparently your family did not really care about piano lessons' if she was not willing to pay $5 or $10 per lessons multiple times a week? I'm guessing she would have been very upset if not heartsick."

Actually, I'm posting here to thank one of my piano teachers, my mom and my older sister for everything they did in support of my music study - they made it possible.

One of the things my mother did was to provide housekeeping services to the best and longest teacher I had, a bachelor, who after I knew him earned a doctorate at Crane School of Music in Potsdam where he had earned his BA and MA. This man was a popular host of social gatherings and dinners in his musical circle, and my Mom "did" for him in housecleaning, food preparation, serving and kitchen clean up. This went on for several years.

And, as I got to be a teen and capable at sightreading and accompanying, he used my abilities in his vocal projects to work with his singers in rehearsal and theater performance projects, and church choir.

This teacher really made himself available to me and was the catalyst to finding myself in music.

So in tribute to him, my mother, and my older sister - it was them who found a way to cooperate together to reach a goal. I knew that and in appreciation, took as many lessons as he would give, practiced long hours, and make sure I was deserving of their efforts.

That's why I feel one has to give their all to music study and not creep along at a slow pace. They invested themselves in me and I'm paying back. I really believe it's my duty to get piano students to their personal best in as little time and expense as is possible. Because I commit to them, I expect them to commit to me and do the things that are necessary on their part to make their dream come true.

But that's just me, a philosophy because of my circumstances as a child and teenager.

My Mom also bought an old piano for $25 from a neighbor, and get this, my piano teacher sanded it and painted it beige so that it looked better in our livingroom. Pretty unusual!

Betty