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#1114186 - 06/06/06 05:38 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
I am just going to try to do only the FIRST page for now. I will work on playing the right notes , before I figure out the correct fingering for those notes.

I will do the right hand separately, then left hand separately,then both hands together, and then I will try to get the tempo right. The tempo from what I can see right now, is going to be the biggest challenge of all. From the way I look at it the more you practice it the better chance you have of getting the tempo right. And some of you will be better at this part that I will ! ;\)
that all has to come together before I will move to the 2nd page.

Some of you maybe able to move faster than me. Now I am thinking 6 months is the amount of time I think it might take me to go through the whole piece. ;\)
......
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#1114187 - 06/06/06 07:29 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
First of all, to all who've asked if they can join, yes! Please join us, there's no requirement, and you can come and go as you like.

Also, I don't think we *have* to work on the same spot, but if we are, we can give each other better advice. And as has been mentioned, this piece is full of repeated patterns, so even if we're not on the same page (literally!) we will probably be doing about the same stuff.

Yellowville, measure 26, yes.

DK, I don't know how to rank the difficulty.. For me, the straighforward 16th notes (like in measure 26) are easier to play than the rhythmically challenging stuff like 35.. But the 16th notes are probably harder to get up to speed.

Oh, and I haven't gotten very far at all on this piece, I've just been dabbling and haven't even played it for a few days because I've been trying to record Overcome. I think I'll do the Burrows, but I may slip into a few things from the other. I haven't shown the score to me teacher before now, it seems like every lesson I have something new to show her, so I'm trying to pace it so as not to drive her completely crazy! :p

Also, I don't know how we should rank the key change... maybe that should be worked on later? What does everyone think?

Hmm, I'm looking at everyone's posts and am starting to forget what I wanted to say, so one last thing and then I have to get ready for my lesson! \:\)

Another practice strategy is to use the metronome and double the beat. in other words, 8 clicks a measure, esp for the 16th note runs or rhythmically challenging parts. Practice it slowly but accurately. Go back and forth between metronome and no metronome. I did this a little with the other arrangement and that really helps to get my fingers moving correctly. Then when I shut off the metronome, I'll better able to work on speeding up.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114188 - 06/06/06 09:30 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
Ok..I played through measures 26 - 29 but of course at a snail pace. The fingering for the RH is rather straight forward but I found the LH to be abit challenging and not sure if I even have the best fingering.

Here's my fingering for the LH for measure 26 :

5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4

measure 27: (LH)

3-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-3

measure 28: (LH)

2-1-3-2-1-2-3-1-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4

measure 29:

straightforward fingering

Does anyone else have something better or different?
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#1114189 - 06/07/06 10:50 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
One & All

Our discussion about which version to use is limited to these relatively brief comments:

1. [dk]I am not sure it is worth the effort for everyone to get Kanemasu's transcription when an acceptable equivalent is readily accesible within a few mouse clicks. Either way, though, I am agreeable and would like to participate.
2. [ShiroKuro]And I agree with DK, getting the other arrangement would probably be a logistical nightmare. (I go through heck and high water every time I try to get something from the US.)

Yesterday, ShiroKuro had her teacher compare the two arrangements of the Croatian Rhapsody, who offered this opinion:

"While the two arrangements are comparable in terms of level of difficulty, the Kanemasu transcription might be more interesting to study, rhythmically."[/b]

If it's okay with everyone, I know ShiroKuro would really appreciate a little time to see if it would be possible to get the Kanemasu transcription for everyone, as another option. We want to make sure we would be able to obtain the Kanemasu transcription without violating any copyrights, etc.. Be patient, she works full time & has other obligations as well.

Not being in a rush, I am okay with...after all, we're really ahead of schedule anyway.

(hope everyone else is okay with this)
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114190 - 06/07/06 12:46 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
Thank you, Shirokuro, for putting in the extra effort.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114191 - 06/07/06 02:21 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
_________________________
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#1114192 - 06/07/06 03:21 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Laura D Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 176
Loc: Pennsylvania
I am interested in this piece. Please someone explain why there are two transcriptions? I take it that this was not originally written for piano. What is the history of this piece?

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#1114193 - 06/07/06 03:28 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
Laura,

We are currently discussing which of two slightly different versions to take on for this project. ShiroKuro might be able to better enlighten you regarding the history of this piece because she is the one that found it.

ShiroKuro has in hand both versions. One of them is available for free on the internet (Burrows) and the other she found in a Japanese magazine and is trying to determine how (if possible) to get us a copy of that version without infringing on any copyrights.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114194 - 06/07/06 03:36 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Laura, glad you're joining in.

It's about 4:30 AM in Japan right now & ShiroKuro has a planned adventure to an elementary school on a tiny island tomorrow morning so she may not have time to do much tomorrow.
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114195 - 06/07/06 06:28 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Opus, thanks \:\)

Yes, I am just going to leave to go to the port, and the news is saying we're supposed to have rough seas today! \:\( I'll be going in one of those little boats that sits low in the water (not a big ferry that can carry cars) and if the sea is too rough, the boat doesn't go out, which means that those children get no English lesson today. \:\( Or, if the boat does go, I come back all green. \:\( Ok, enough rambling off topic!

Anyway, I'll just write briefly.

Laura, this piece was written by a composer who does sort of rock-classical music (whatever that is.) I think this particular piece was written for piano, but with some extra instruments in the recording by the pianist Maksim.

The reason there are two arrangements is simple. First of all, it's very common for different arrangement to be floating around, esp of music that's "popular" in terms of being able to sell a lot of scores.

Secondly, the Burrows arrangement is probably exactly the same as the recording in terms of length and sections, whereas the Kanemasu one probably used the original as a guide without worrying about matching it exactly.

Because in the original, there are synths and so on, other instruments provide some of the rhythmic elements. From what I can tell, the Kanemasu arrangement appears to take that into consideration and that's why the LHis a little different.

Oops, I am running out of time. Tonight I'll scan in a few measures that will let everyone get an idea of what differences I'm talking about. And see if it's easy for people to order the Kanemasu arrangement if they're interested. Having said that, the RH seems virtually identical, and because of the similarities, I think we would still be able to work as a group even if some of us had a different arrangement. What do people think about that possibility?
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114196 - 06/07/06 06:49 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
Shiro: I am turning green myself thinking about your rough trip on the seas today! :p
Those children sure are lucky to have a teacher as dedicated as you! Don't push your self tonight to scan the Kanemasu arrangement if you come back green! :p We appreciate all your efforts in introducing as to this beautiful piece! ;\)

I have the Burrow arrangement, but I will hold off until we all get the Karemasu arrangement if it is available. I am looking forward to veiwing it.
_________________________
Make music not war

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#1114197 - 06/07/06 07:16 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
 Quote:
Originally posted by dk21208:
As an example:
1 page per month to equal the six months. We could further break down weekly goals.
Start Page 1
Week 1: Establish fingerings, identify trouble spots within page 1.
Week 2: Able to play through page 1 at tempo 50
Week 3: Page 1 tempo = 70
Week 4: Page 1 tempo = 80
Start page 2
Week 5: Establish fingerings, identify trouble spots within page 2. Page 1 tempo = 85
Week 6: Page 2 tempo = 50. Page 1 tempo = 90
etc.
. [/QB]
This is going to be so easy ( NOT[/b] !!!!)

This looks like a good piece to preform for a recital!

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#1114198 - 06/07/06 07:19 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
By the way...... Sign me Up!!!

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#1114199 - 06/07/06 07:48 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
You got it Debussy, VERY glad to have more people to share in the pain ;\) .

I just spent about 30 minutes tinkering around with the first and second pages and I've got to say that this is certainly going to be worth learning! It is going to be FUN TO PLAY (who else in this thread said that?)!

I recall years ago, our public television station would feature what they called "movies worth taping". In a similar way, I would suggest that the Croation Rhapsody might be one of those "pieces worth memorizing". For all of the repitition I know it's going to take me to get the notes under my fingers, and the rhythm in my mind & body, I wouldn't think it would be too much additional effort to memorize it.

Speaking of memorizing pieces, have any of you ever used memorization to help you learn to play something?

At the risk of rambling on, I want to also add that I think ShiroKuro might have been right when she said "the piece is not as difficult as it sounds (or looks?)". The thirty minutes I spent tinkering this evening have given me more confidence. I'm really starting to get a bit excited about learning the Croatian Rhapsody! (I'm still for projecting 6 months to learn it)
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114200 - 06/07/06 08:06 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
6 monthes to learn- Does that include memorizing???
I takes me a month to memorize a piece like this. One final question:
I am just putting the finishing touches on Sonata in C MAj. (k545) - By Mozart. Is this the right piece to start? Is it my level???

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#1114201 - 06/08/06 06:23 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Well, the sea was pretty rough today, or so I was told, I don't really know because I didn't go! There was a possibility that the return boat would be unable to make the trip, so rather than cancel the visit entirely, another school was kind enough to rearrange their entire schedule so that I could switch school visits around and go to the island school next week. So I am home, and not green. Whew. Which means I am off to wrestle with the scanner, and with these two scores.

Debussy20, I can't comment on your level, but have you looked at the score that's downloadable above. That should give you an idea of whether this will work for you or not. I tend to think that a sonata would be harder just because of the musical form (though maybe that's not the right way to think of it.) I think the difficulty of this rhapsody comes from it's tempo, so if you can handle Mozart, you should be ok.

Opus, what do you mean, use memorization to help learn a piece? As in, using memorization at the learning stage?

I don't know if this is a good comparison or not, but I've been trying to improve my playing of Overcome by David Nevue. I tend to stutter at the section changes. So I just closed the score and working on playing it from memory. I also played the piece in my head a few times, away from the piano and without the score. (actually, I should do that again today!)

What I do is look at the clock and write down the time that I start. Then I mostly close my eyes and sing/play the piece in my head, sometimes hum a bit if I need to. The idea is that I am not "recalling the score," but actually playing it in my head. I find myself sometimes moving my fingers a little bit to keep the tempo right, or tapping as if I was a metronome etc. When I'm done, I look at the clock again. If it has taken me about the same length of time to play it in my head as it does to play it at the piano, then I can assume I haven't skipped any sections and that I've done it at the proper tempo.

I find this incredibly tiring, it's much more difficult than playing the piece at the piano because it requires probably 100 times as much concentration. With more complicated music, I can't really do this fully, but I have done small sections or just visualize the score in my mind (each line, each page, where the music is, top or bottom, left or right)

Hmm, perhaps I'm just talking about memorizing/mental reading, not about learning through memorization...
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114202 - 06/08/06 08:06 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Ok, I am afraid this image is going to be very big, but otherwise you lose the ledger lines. Here are measures 1 thru 14 of the Kanemasu arrangement.



I played through a few pages of both arrangements, using only my LH. And my conclusion (subject to change!) is that the Burrows arrangement is a little more difficult, but also a little less interesting. You can see from these first few measures that, while the chords are the same, they're placed differently. Also, the Kanemasu arrangement has a little more bounce going on.

The reason I think the Burrows is more difficult is mainly beacause of the LH 16th notes that start in measure 26.

But, having said that, the difference is quite small.

Ok, now I'm off to see if I can figure out a way for the Kanemasu to be ordered in the US for those who want to.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114203 - 06/08/06 08:29 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Ok, the score is in this magazine:

Piano Life, Vol. 4
published by Yamaha Music Media.
(GTM01080998 or JAN code: 4910076260665, no ISBN code because it's a magazine.) release date is listed as June 20th 2006, even though it was in the stores last month (I never did get that)

The price is Y780 (less than $8.00 US)

I don't know how much would be added on for international shipping. Also, the web site said this is going to be the last issue "for a while." So I don't know if that affects anything.

Can someone try to search for this from the US? My computer takes me to Japanese sites, and I haven't found this on any sites in English. I'm going to try to email Yamaha.

Oh, and this isn't really the "Kanemasu arrangement" Kanemasu is the pianist, the arrangement was done by Miyuki Uchida.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114204 - 06/08/06 08:33 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
Thanks again, ShiroKuro.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114205 - 06/08/06 08:52 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
Oh! You can see the fingerings I wrote in! How embarassing! :p
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114206 - 06/08/06 08:54 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I found this:

Piano Life

However, the page isn't translating....
_________________________
Dean

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#1114207 - 06/08/06 09:35 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
DK, that's the one. But, unfortunately that site does not ship outside of Japan! \:\(

I thought Amazon might be better, but the magazine didn't come up on Amazon Japan.
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114208 - 06/08/06 09:48 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
hmmmm....wondering if we wouldn't be violating any copyright laws if we study a pdf copy of this version. (I mean it's not as if we're going to be performing this piece publically).

Do we have any attorneys in our groups?

Any thoughts?
_________________________
Jeff

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#1114209 - 06/08/06 11:24 AM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
I just questioned what we could get away with for fair use regarding the master those measure thread... Educational purposes pretty much get the biggest leeway when judging that, but I don't know what the answer is when you are talking about sharing the entire piece.

One possibility would be if ShiroKuro would be willing to purchase a copy for each of us. We could then have them sent to the US for someone here to distribute. Or once the purchase is made email us a pdf of the music. Once again this burdens ShiroKuro, and I don't think that it is necessary unless she wants to go through the effort.
_________________________
Dean

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#1114210 - 06/08/06 12:32 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
I agree. Personally I like the Kanemasu version. But whatever.... Playing the piano is a joy itself

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#1114211 - 06/08/06 01:30 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
dk21208 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 339
Loc: FL
We almost need separate threads to discuss what we are going to do and then what we are doing....

 Quote:
Originally posted by kawaigirl1:

Here's my fingering for the LH for measure 26 :

5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4

measure 27: (LH)

3-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-3

measure 28: (LH)

2-1-3-2-1-2-3-1-5-4-2-1-2-1-2-4
I changed it up a little for myself:

meas 26: 5-3-2-1-2-1-2-3, 5-3-2-1-2-1-2-4
meas 27: 3-2-1-2-1-2-3-1, 5-3-1-2-1-2-3-1
meas 28: 4-2-1-2-1-2-3-1, 5-3-2-1-2-1-2-3

I thought maybe this better sets up the hand to go from the Eb arpp. to the Ab arpp. Also, for those of you that have skinnier hands than me... The Eb felt real nice when I played it 5-4-3-2-1-2-3-5, but my fourth finger always scrubs the blacks on both side of the G, so I bailed on the possibility of that fingering.

What do you think?
_________________________
Dean

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#1114212 - 06/08/06 07:40 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3515
Loc: not in Japan anymore
I'm trying to figure out where to send an email to Yamaha asking permission to use the arrangement. Why is it so hard to find the right contact place?! Gee. Sit tight...
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




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#1114213 - 06/08/06 07:40 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Kawaigirl1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 989
Loc: Toronto
Txs dk, I'm going to try your fingering and see which one is more comfortable.
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#1114214 - 06/08/06 08:35 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
petrof1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Gulf Coast
I've tried both arrangements and I like the Kanemasu version better, it has better rythym, the left hand is a little more interesting. I think the Kanemasu might be a little easier to play because you can pick up on the rythym faster.

Shiro: do what you can do if you got the time to get this arrangement,but if you can't get it don't worry , we appreciate all your efforts!

The Burrows arrangement will do just fine,maybe some of us might even be able to improvise a little to pick up some extra rythym on the left hand on the Burrows arrangement?

As far as the fingering goes, I think I'll experiment on my own first and then try out the fingering y'all suggested. ;\)
_________________________
Make music not war

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#1114215 - 06/08/06 08:40 PM Re: Croatian Rhapsody Learning Group
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 920
Loc: North Carolina
My piano teacher called me to tell me I had one more pre-paid lesson with her & wanted me to see her one more time.

With my newly printed transcription of the Croatian Rhapsody in hand, I decided to take her up on the offer. We read through it and worked out some fingering together and I thought I would share some of her comments about the Croatian Rhapsody (she was able to sight read through much of it...wish I could play that well!!)

"What a great piece to study...this is something that sounds very impressive, very complicated and difficult, and yet it's very manageable pianistically...it's technically elegant...it doesn't require any overly difficult fingering/hand positions, etc.., the biggest challenge will be (as a few of you have already said) the tempo."[/b]

I am even more excited to be learning to play this very beautiful and compelling Rhapsody, and I hope all of you are as well!
_________________________
Jeff

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