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#1115483 - 07/23/06 01:10 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
btb: I was put off by that warning when I first came on the forum. What it means is that only YOU (the original poster) and administrators and moderators can edit or delete.

Just ignore the warning and go to your thread, click on the image with the paper and pencil at the far right on top of your message (in front of the quotation marks) and this will take you back to your message box. From there you can edit or fix anything. As Peyton says: Highlight the jpg image line and then hit delete. This will take out your picture. Then, to let the screen go back, press Add Reply under the message box. You'll get a screen that will have "we're taking you back to...." Then you'll be back to the threads. Boy, I'm confused. Did you get this?

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115484 - 07/23/06 01:14 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
ANOTHER QUESTION:

Starting in measure 3, they put a flat in front of the B. Again in 5.

Well, the B is already flat in accordance with the key.

Does this added flat mean it's a double flat? That's not the way to indicate a double flat, or is it?

Confusing.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115485 - 07/23/06 01:22 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
Starting in measure 3, they put a flat in front of the B. Again in 5.

Well, the B is already flat in accordance with the key.
[/b]
Because there is a b natural for the right hand in this same measure, but it's a b flat for the left hand. So a flat symbol there is just to make sure there is no confusion with the b natural on the right hand part.

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#1115486 - 07/23/06 01:45 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Peyton,
Sorry to be a bit of a drag ... and thank you for
being so considerate ... but where do I find the posts with the large pictures so that I can hightlight the jpgs and hit delete.

When I tried it on the "Full Reply Form" ... there was an instant bold-lettered warning:
"Only administrators or moderators may perform this action" [/b]
Go to your own[/b] two posts. May sure you're not clinking on someone else's. Use the icons to the right of your username. The next to last icon looks like a piece of paper and a pencil. Click on this icon. It will take to you the screen with this warning on it.
 Quote:
"Edit Post
Only forum leaders or the person that posted this message[/b] may edit this message (and only registered users may edit/delete posts)"
Go in and highlight the entire post and then delete it. I've already copied the posts.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115487 - 07/23/06 06:35 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
qtpi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/05
Posts: 253
Loc: Hockessin, Delaware
I worked today on the measure six trill. When you listen to the recording it sounds like there is a very slight retard on the trill , then back to tempo in measure 7. The trill is okay- but the 4th beat of the measure in the left hand sounds odd to me- the G flat octave- but after practicing it, I think I got it today.
_________________________
qtpi

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#1115488 - 07/24/06 01:54 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Like riding a bike ... easy when you know how.
Thanks Frycek,Kathleen and Peyton for getting me out of a jam. It would be good to know of a simple formula to know if a picture is right size. You chaps are snoozing while I'm bashing in this word of thanks ... must get another breakfast cup of tea.

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#1115489 - 07/24/06 09:13 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Thanks, LA, about that Bb question. Of course, you're right. It didn't connect at first. But when I looked at the music again. Sure enough, I noticed that natural Bb in the RH, and I've been playing it as such.

While we're on the subject (sort of), I KNOW I think of the RH and LH as two different spheres and not just a large extension of one major staff, which it is. This is what causes me to have problems reading the left hand and (in some cases) playing it. I'm getting better (I should, after all the practicing I do), but still recognizing a certain note (in the LH on the lower ledger lines) and chords (some I still have to pause and figure out) is probably one of the reasons why I don't progress as quickly as I should. That left hand thing is still a bug-a-boo for me.

When I do sight reading, I will often just play the left hand in a piece...to get more practice noticing and becoming more familiar with chords. That's helped. But, I think the LH will never be as easy for me as the RH.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115490 - 07/24/06 07:35 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
not on topic
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115491 - 07/24/06 10:58 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
I still have a lot of work to do on the first two pages but I have started trying to work on the second section. It is night and day from the first. Much more difficult. I find that for two handed passages like this I almost have to memorize them before I can begin to play them smoothly so I see many months ahead before I begin to have it down.

The first time I ever heard that 28/4 was in the movie Five Easy Pieces. Jack Nickelson is asked to play, plays it and then ridicules it as "easy". As usual the "easy" pieces are sometime the hardest to interprete well. I bet you play it wonderfully despite the broken sound board and bad mic.

I've been working on 28/2 and 28/3. I'm beginning to think both are out of my reach. 28/2 has these strange left hand stretches and 28/3 has a jump I just can't see possible at speed. It's very frustrating to put so much time into something and just not be able to "get it".
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115492 - 07/25/06 12:16 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2896
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
When I do sight reading, I will often just play the left hand in a piece...to get more practice noticing and becoming more familiar with chords. [/b]
You need to work more on sight reading BOTH hands together. Sight reading is more of an exercise for the brain than for the hands. You train your brain to process information faster. Go to a church and borrow a hymnbook. Hymns are full of chords, but they are usually very easy chords. Work on them for 3-4 months, and you will see how much you improve on your sight reading skill.

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#1115493 - 07/25/06 07:04 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Bad backs have got to be the most debilitating of curses ... I packed in my golf rather than continue to face the aftermath of a twisted back ... stumbling round like a decrepit wrech is no way to go. Might I suggest that Kathleen (get better soon) ease her back problem by limiting her turns at the piano by taking periodic breaks to "smell the roses" ... I haven't the patience to sit at the piano for more than 15 minutes let alone 3 hours as suggested by some.

One of my quirks is always to pay through and record the entire piece of music ... my stab at
Nocturne 55.1 might be desperately short of Ashkinazy's nimble fingers timed at 5:51 minutes. OK, so my stopwatch has just indicated my lame effort at 12:28 minutes ... time for a cup of tea and a snack to muse on what measures need to be sharpened up to reduce the latest time ... like a marathon runner wanting to reduce the time ... clearly measures 57-68 (blocky chords laced with frills having dialogue with a regular LH outline) are costing time and need work ... the advantage of this approach is that practising takes on a very real purpose in helping cut down the overall time ... mindless repetition is no longer a factor.

I feel sure that this approach can be used on a smaller scale by comparing Ashkinazy's time over a set number of measures ... by so doing a finite goal is established.

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#1115494 - 07/25/06 07:16 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Ashkinazy takes 4:51 minutes to play the Chopin
Nocturne 55.1 - not the 5:51 as given above.

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#1115495 - 07/25/06 09:43 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
btb, you must be a very good sight reader? I tried to use your method and not only could not come close to 12 minutes...I just couldn't do it. I end up spending too much time trying to figure out all the notes. I would love to be able to sight read through a work.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115496 - 07/25/06 12:13 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Peyton: I SO agree. No way could I sight-read that piece in 12 minutes. I'm thinking maybe 12 hours would be more in line with my abilities. Good luck on the preludes 2` and 3. 2 is rated as a #7, and 3 a #8. I think I'll stay at level 7 for quite a while.

Frustration is a real problem for me. It's what kept me away from the piano for 15 years. And while I am more mature now and won't let that happen again, I know my abilities and want to stay there (at a 7) until I can play many pieces at that level. Then, perhaps, I'll take on an 8.

Thanks, LA, for the tip about sight-reading hymns. I have heard that before as a method to improve the skill. However, I'm afraid if I walk into a church, the roof would fall in on me. I think I'll order something from Amazon.

btb: I also envy your ability. How long have you been playing?

qtpi: I tried recording those measures and slowing them down to see if we could determine which notes (and how many) were being played. But it doesn't work. Again, I am going to see my piano teacher next week and will ask her.

My back problems are caused by my stupidity. I lift things I shouldn't. Had three surgeries on my spine and should know better. But I get too impatient to wait for my husband to move anything, so I end up doing it myself. Big mistake!! When will I ever learn?

O.K. I'm going to start on those T-shirts, then practice.

Take care everyone.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115497 - 07/26/06 09:48 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
not on topic
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115498 - 07/26/06 10:55 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
not on topic
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115499 - 07/27/06 10:49 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Hi All:

I posted a question on both the Pianist Corner and the Teachers' forum about the trills. I received a reply from the Teacher's forum from Chris. Here is what he had to say about the trills. I am going to use his advice.

********************

Hi Kathleen, it's possible you may have your measure numbers mixed up. Measure 7 is actually measure 6. Remember that you would count from the first full measure where the LH starts. This would mean that the numbers you quoted would be measures 6, 14, 30, 46.

As for the trills... I haven't played a lot of Chopin nocturnes so I could be wrong in my interpretation but here goes.

In general, I would keep the trills moving melodically (so they move by step). So, in measure 6 start the trill on the B flat and use Bb-C-Bb-C-Bb etc. Always use the given note and the note above it for a trill. To end this trill move smoothly from the final Bb into the grace notes (A natural-B flat) so you keep the stepwise movement. The other trills work in much the same way but are preceeded by the 2 grace notes. I would play the grace notes on the beat in line with the LH bass note. Eg. in measure 14 start the trill on the 3rd beat with the A natural (grace note) and move by step -A natural-Bb-C-Bb-C-Bb etc to finish with the flourish of grace notes at the very end of the bar (these notes should be played following the LH chord). The trills in 30 and 46 should work in the same way.

That's how I see it anyway. Let's hope you can make sense of my description
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115500 - 07/27/06 12:18 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:
Hey...I finished the T-shirts yesterday. Four of them (one for me). I'm going to send them out tomorrow. \:\)

They look pretty good, I think. At least, they're "one-of-a-kind." :p

So Peyton, MaryAnna and Pianolina be looking out for a padded envelope in the mail in the next several days.

I should add that it took me a few tries. I kept forgetting to click that box that says "Reverse Writing" and had to print out the lettering a couple of times. Then once I got it going the right way, I ironed it on upside down!

But, it was worth the effort. May you all wear them with pride. \:D

[/b]
That's amazing! How did you do the shirts? Do you use your computer printer and some kind of iron on?

Thanks for asking about those trills. That will help!
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115501 - 07/27/06 12:28 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
not on topic
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115502 - 07/27/06 05:42 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
MaryAnna Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 400
Loc: Florida
I'm so excited to get a look at my T-shirt! This is so cool.
_________________________
Mary Anna Evans
Author of the Faye Longchamp mysteries
http://www.maryannaevans.com
Blogging at maryannaevans@blogspot.com

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#1115503 - 07/27/06 09:20 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
qtpi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/05
Posts: 253
Loc: Hockessin, Delaware
I worked 3 days and haven't practiced but I had a day off- and i had a great time at the piano.I have mastered the m. 6 trill, I think. I did a lot of counting aloud and realized it is very imortant to hold those dotted eithgs in m. 6 and m.7 for their full value.
_________________________
qtpi

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#1115504 - 07/28/06 09:57 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
I've been sort of letting the first two pages go and spending time with the next (the fast two handed) section. When I get frustrated with that (which does not take long) I go back to the "easier" section.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115505 - 07/28/06 10:38 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I've only become familiar with the first two pages. Quite frankly, I'm afraid to look at the third page.

qtpi: Thanks for the tip on those trills. I have ALWAYS read that Chopin's trills start on the upper note. So in the case of the trill in m 6, it would be played:

C (played with the Bb in the LH??),then Bb, C, Bb, C, Bb, C, Bb...then the grace notes...A, Bb, C (which would be played with the LH.)

Is this correct? Or do I have trilled two notes too many?

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115506 - 07/28/06 04:18 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Pianolina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 204
I think I must be bringing up the rear on this one. So far, I've only managed to get through the first two pages. I'm still working on smoothing them out and making them fluent. Hopefully I can spend some quality time with my piano and make some more progress this weekend. Although these thunderstorms that keep threatening to roll through are not helping - I keep unplugging my digital in anticipation.

...And of course, the rain starts again as I type this.

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#1115507 - 07/28/06 06:18 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianolina:
I think I must be bringing up the rear on this one. So far, I've only managed to get through the first two pages. [/b]
Aas far as I know we are all still on the first two pages. I have not begun to get them down, only went ahead on the third page for the thrill. \:D
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115508 - 07/28/06 08:04 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I believe Peyton is correct, Pianolina. We're all still on the first two pages (and I wouldn't mind staying there for a while because the next two pages look IMPOSSIBLE).

I am still somewhat confused about the trills in m 6 and etc. In several books that I have read on Chopin's method, they all state that he begins this trills on the note above the note given. I have two books that show this. However, when I play the trills this way, it just doesn't sound right.

So I decided I am going to start the trill on the note given (Bb) and trill it up to the next note (usually a C).

If anyone has concrete proof that I am wrong, please do let me know.

Otherwise, I will be on the first two pages for about two more weeks...then, hope to have worked up the courage to start the last two pages.

I once mentioned that I thought finishing this piece would make a great Christmas present to myself. I just hope it's Christmas 06 and not 07.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115509 - 07/28/06 08:37 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianolina:
I think I must be bringing up the rear on this one. So far, I've only managed to get through the first two pages. [/b]
I think not. I haven't even started.

Joe, affectionately known as the north end of a southbound mule.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115510 - 07/28/06 11:57 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally posted by Kathleen:

 Quote:
I am still somewhat confused about the trills in m 6 and etc. In several books that I have read on Chopin's method, they all state that he begins this trills on the note above the note given. I have two books that show this. However, when I play the trills this way, it just doesn't sound right.

So I decided I am going to start the trill on the note given (Bb) and trill it up to the next note (usually a C).
I've got a neat little book here, Chopin's Ornamentation. It was published in 1921 by JP Dunn, a lecturer in music at the University of Edinburgh. Here is what he says about the Chopin's trills - what he calls a "simple shake" indicated by "tr" "tr~~~~".

"The simple shake is comparatively rare in Chopin's works. When no direction to the contrary is given, it should invariably begin with the principal note. If Chopin wishes it to commence with the auxiliary note, he prefixed the latter as an acciaccatura." (a preceding grace note.)

This is only an apparent contradiction of Kathleen's earlier statement that Chopin's trills begin on the upper note. This was a assertion of one of
Chopin's students. I believe this student was referring to those trills preceded by the upper note as a grace note as so very many of Chopin's are, not to the "comparatively rare" "simple shake" or tr~~ unpreceded by the upper note as a grace note. The "tr" (or as this guy calls it a "simple shake") begins with the principle note. If this is the case then the Bb tr~~ would be BCBCBCBC. And it should be the same for all the trills unpreceded by the auxiliary as a grace note. This is essentially the same instruction given by the poster from the Piano Teacher's Forum. The author of my little book also states the in Chopin's work ornaments are "almost invariably" played "on the beat."

I finally pulled my music out and spent the evening playing the first page.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115511 - 07/29/06 07:00 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by loveschopintoomuch:


I am still somewhat confused about the trills in m 6 and etc. In several books that I have read on Chopin's method, they all state that he begins this trills on the note above the note given. I have two books that show this. However, when I play the trills this way, it just doesn't sound right.

So I decided I am going to start the trill on the note given (Bb) and trill it up to the next note (usually a C).

If anyone has concrete proof that I am wrong, please do let me know.

Otherwise, I will be on the first two pages for about two more weeks...then, hope to have worked up the courage to start the last two pages.

I once mentioned that I thought finishing this piece would make a great Christmas present to myself. I just hope it's Christmas 06 and not 07.

Kathleen [/b]
The trills sound best when started on the Bb IMHO. Plus in the recordings I've listened to that seems to be where they are starting their trills.

The third page is really tough. I've just been working on the first two lines and not getting very far.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115512 - 07/29/06 09:33 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Frycek: :p

"The northend of a south-bound mule"....

Thank you both of you for clearning up this trill business for once and for all.

I was really concerned (well, just a little) about where to start as I had read so much about starting on the uppper note.

However, due to your advice, I'm glad I have been playing on the Bb and on the beat.

Peyton: Oh no! You started the third page and it's hard. No surprise there. I can imagine I will be taking it one measure at a time (for about a month devoted to each). Yeah, I can see it will definitely be Christmas of 2007 when I can finally play it (somewhat correctly). I can barely make a 16th note run now. How am I ever going to play those 32nd notes? Veerrryyyy sllloooowy.

Oh well, we do love a challenge, don't we?

Frycek: Glad you've found some time to look at the first page. But don't be fooled, as I'm sure you know. It's the same "thunder and lightening" section coming up, only in a MUCH more difficult manner.

Good luck to all.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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