Oh, just to be clear about how I'm looking at the trills...in measure 31 I read that particular trill as starting on the C. And when I say I've gone to the third page...it's actually the end of page two in my book. it's the piu mosso part with the matching triplets in both hands. It's amazing how different the rest of the piece is from the first two pages. Even when the theme comes back it sounds very different with those high triplets.

Christmas 07 is looking more and more likely for me too.... :rolleyes:

Peyton: So glad to have some "company" for Christmas 07.

I think we should then go out and buy ourselves something very BIG and SPECIAL. Like a new piano. I'm serious. My grand shimmies and it will cost me about 7 thou to get it fixed. For that money, I can buy a new/used good used one. Although I will be in my very late sixties at that time, I am going with Monica's idea about "dying broke." :p

And, wow, how different that third and part of 4th page is. But it's so exciting!! :rolleyes:

Kathleen

Less than five minutes? Good heavens. I'm the southest end of the northbound mule here, being as how I've only played through it twice. Even at the speed I'm blundering through it, it sounds less like a nocturne to me and more like some kind of dance--a mazurka or polka or something. I haven't dragged out my recording of the nocturnes, but I think it's Ashkenazy, so I'm anxious to hear it at that tempo.

I really prefer nocturnes that have a more melodic left hand--arpeggios and stuff--but this one is pretty, and I do like the fact that the various sections are so different.

It never occurred to me to time myself while starting out a piece. When I'm working on speed, I try to match a metronome setting, but timing the whole piece does work better when you're still working out the notes.

I got through it in 8 minutes and 10 seconds, but it wasn't pretty. I think I'm on the Christmas '07 plan, too.

Rubenstein's version of 55-1 takes a full 5:37 - if that makes y'all feel any better. Personally, I think Ashkenazy rushes it just a bit, especially at the end....

I'm not really IN this group, I guess, in that I'm not actively working on the Nocturne. But I am watching the thread with interest.

One curious thing about it is how the left hand notes are marked with a dot, staccato, yet in my edition (Paderewski) at least, there are pedal marks for beats 1-2 and 3-4 in every measure in the beginning. How can you hold down the damper pedal and manage "staccato" at the same time?

I was wondering about that too. I'm just ignoring the stacato dots.

You guys that are "reading through" this in anything under a half an hour I have to give you a hats off. I'd give anything to be able to read that well.

I spent some time on the first page this afternoon, finally.

About the pedalled staccato notes--

I have the Alfred edition, which is very finicky about the pedaling. The editor included the pedaling exactly as Chopin wrote it. There are footnotes when the manuscripts were unclear or contradictory. Sometimes the editor marks additional pedal changes in dashed lines where he thinks modern pianos are too resonant for the original marking, but Chopin's markings are still very clear. All in all, I find it very educational.

Anyway, it looks to me like those pedal markings are exactly the way Chopin wrote them. I'm trying to play the staccatos, even though the space between the notes doesn't sound, on the theory that it forces me to attack the notes in a different way that's audible, despite the pedal.

I'm finding it hard to pedal every two beats, because my inclination is to pedal every beat, but I'm working on it.

"the north end of a southbound mule" - What a great line .

So I guess I'm actually no farther behind than anyone else. I don't know where I got that impression. I swear, I've been misreading people all week - Makes me want to just sit down and shut up for the rest of the summer. (Good conditions for playing the piano, really .)

I play the left hand notes staccato even though the pedal is down. The notes aren't sharp and detached, but they do sound different, no?

Pianolina:

You are able to play the LH staccato?

I'm lucky to be able to read/recognize the chords even though most are repeated many times throughout the first two pages. I love those two pages and think I'll stay there for a couple of weeks. I'm not even thinking staccato and doubt if I ever will. I don't do staccato well.

DO NOT FEAR! I believe you are the "leader of the pack." Or, perhaps one of two of the leaders. Ooopppsss...don't want to make this sound like a race. We all know it should not be considered as such.

Relax and have fun. We will be coming to you for advice.

Kathleen

I am still puting along on the first 6 to 8 measures. Anyway, I found a reference for teh trills. In a book called Ornamentation by Watts and Bigler- Alfred publication. It says for the trill in Chopin's works," the trill generally begins on the upper auxiliary note. A termination is usually added whether indicated or not."- meaning you go down to the lower note and come up to the main note before you end. It also goes on to say.. " the trill may proceed slowly and increase in speed.. a small note on the same space or line as the trilled note indicates the trill begins on that note( the main note)>" Maurice HInson also writes " According to the testimony of his own students, Chopin usually begins his trills on the upper note."

I listened to my recording, which turned out to be Garrick Ohlsson, not Ashkenazy, and his tempo choices were very interesting. The first two pages are at a tempo similar to the one I hear in my head. (Which is faster than I can play it now, but still somewhat approachable.) The other sections, however, he plays at a significantly faster tempo. For example, he takes the piu mosso at measure 48 very, very seriously. He speeds up again at the molto legato a stretto at measure 77, which I wouldn't necessarily read to mean a tempo change. I hadn't even noticed that there was an accelerando at measure 90, but those last few repeated measures are so fast that they sound almost like trills.

The upshot is that he finishes the piece in 4 minutes, 40 seconds.

I was really concerned (well, just a little) about where to start as I had read so much about starting on the uppper note.[/b] :rolleyes:

I hate to be a "I told you so" about the starting point of Chopin trills, but I did. :p

I have an Alfred compliation of Chopin's easier works. And in shaded gray, the notes are printed out about the trill and they ALL start on the note above. And in the introduction to the book, Alfred has a whole section on Chopin's ornamentation and he states again the upper note.

Why doesn't it sound right though? Does it sound right to you?

MaryAnna: You are way ahead of me. I haven't even thought of the pedalling. But I'm glad you are going along at such a great pace because we are going to need you when we get to the section you're talking about, whenever that may be (in this decade, I hope!!. ) We're all proud of you and your progress.

One more thing. Chopin is played by most pianists today at too great a tempo. Much of the beauty and nuances of his music are lost in their mad rush to prove their virtuosity. Ala, Liszt-like.

Maybe that's why I so admired Rubinstein. He understood Chopin's music and knew how to play it. Wish he were still alive so he could teach this current generation a thing or two or three. In my mind, they have a lot of learn. Certainly not about actually playing but HOW to play. Big difference!

O.K. I'm off my soapbox for another week or two.


Kathleen

Re THE TRILLS ~~~
Watts and Bigler- Alfred say start on the upper note: JP Dunn says start on the principal. It seems even the authorities don't agree. Watts and Bigler- Alfred but did allow for a little weasel room with the qualifiers "generally' and "usually." If the trill in question is unprefaced by an auxillary and sounds dumb to me when begun on the upper note, I'm starting on the principal. Sometimes we just have to use some judgement. That's what weasel room is for. Remember we're musicians too.

BTW According to one of his students - Chopin was not so much concerned with speed in his trills as he was that they be played evenly.

I agree with Frycek. If it doesn't sound right, I'm starting the trill on the principal.

Glad we got that settled. :p

Now we just have to concentrate on playing staccato, the correct pedalling, and keeping it at the proper tempo, whatever that might turn out to be. In my case, it will be on the slow side. Really slow.

And that just thinking about pages one and two.

MaryAnna...you are still out there, right??


Kathleen

Yes, I'm still out here. I went to dinner at my 19-year-old daughter's apartment tonight. She and her boyfriend invited us and my son and his girlfriend and my mother and her godparents--twelve people in all.

From a mother's point of view, it was just perfect, a very independent and loving thing for her to do. But she did call me from the grocery store and again from her kitchen, getting detailed instructions on how to make the spaghetti sauce. So I'm not completely useless, yet.

Someday soon, I'm going to scan the Alfred edition's recommended interpretations of the trills and ornaments, with the caveat that Ohlsson doesn't seem to be playing quite the same thing. He throws in a few extra shakes on the trills, but I think he's just showing off.

BTW, don't mistake my observations on this piece for actual skill. I'm in that stage where I "survey" the territory. I read through it sloppily, just to get a feel for how it will sound. Since I have a recording, I'm comparing his interpretation with the impressions I got during my quick read-throughs. And now, I've started actually working on the first couple of pages. But listening to me play the piece is kind of like watching sausage made...

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy! I figured out the triplets! I may have my metronome set at 40 but they are finally working and starting to sound like a melody. (I've found them not so much difficult as infuriating! )

not on topic

Hi Everyone:

I just reread my last post and I have to apologize to all of you.

I came off sounding like a jerk.
This forum is of GREAT importance to me. I consider many of you good friends.

I was just a little upset with myself because I've become a little lazy lately (for me) and not practicing as much as I'd like to or have the time to. AND to top it off, I recorded myself playing the #4 prelude for the recital and either me or the piano or both of us sound pretty bad. I have been playing this prelude for years, but I still have a difficult time getting through certain spots. Always different ones. So, I was in a mood.

I'm going to confess to you that it has always been a dream (goal) of mine to be able to play all of Chopin's preludes before I die.

When I was in my teens, this seemed doable. Now, however, much of the sands of time have settled in the bottom of the glass.

I know of 5 the 24 now. Only 19 more to go!!


If I take two a year...some maybe a little less and some about 2 years, maybe I will realize my dream. Those "10's" will most likely be out of the question.

I know I probably seem a little obsessed, but that's why I am so driven.

Anyhow, I'm pretty good with page 1 of the nocturne and will start page two today in earnest. I'm playing the trills "by ear". What sounds good is my motto.

Hope everyone is managing to stay cool.

With affection,
Kathleen

Not to worry...you did not sound like a jerk. In fact, every now and then I try to disipline myself and not spend so much time on these forums (I run a telemark forum) . They really can eat away at your time. So I don't blame you!

That's quite a goal to learn all the preludes. There are some very tough ones so stop reading this and get to work!! :p

Aye, aye ...sir!

Your T-shirt should be arriving soon. Just in time for this terribly hot weather.

Kathleen

not on topic

I want to learn all the nocturnes. about three more of the etudes, most of the preludes, and the rest of the Well Tempered Clavier. I think I got a ways to go - - -

Regarding your message - you didn't sound like a jerk but I was a bit saddened as I think we all were at the prospect of less interaction with you. Glad you got over your hissy fit.

Kathleen,

I listened to my recording of Garrick Ohlsson playing the preludes about a squillion times, then I went and bought the Alfred edition and set myself a goal of playing them all before I'm 50. (I have just a hair over 5 years...)

What edition do you use? Do you like it?

Back to the nocturne at hand--Frycek, you said you'd conquered the triplets. Which batch? All of them? There are several passages with triplets that are tricky for me. Any tips?

Cuz, I've been working on the ones at the top of the third page. Left hand triplets. I can't say I've conquered them. But at least now I can get into the cage with them without feeling in imminent danger of being devoured. They are by no means tame yet. What I discovered is for me the fingering 5 - 1 -5 -1 for the left hand triplets works, if that makes any sense. Other than that I've been practicing with a slow metronome a measure at a time.

Kathleen,

I've met Stephen King but can't say I know him... He got run over not far from my house... :rolleyes:

not on topic

You probably have to be there.

I never would have thought of 5-1-5-1.
We need a smiley for this:
[Off to the piano to try it out.]

My tee-shirt came in!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, Kathleen! Ol' Chopin is lookin' very studly indeed.



I tried Cousin Joe's 5-1-5-1 fingering, and it's almost working for me.

The first 5-1 works great. I was reaching for 5-2, and it wasn't working. And the last 1 is working good, too. I keep throwing in something else on the third part of the triplet--something like 5-1-x-1. I think I can get this to work...

Glad it's starting to work. I just fell into it, I think it's sort of a Bach fugue thing.

I had been making some steady progress on the piano- gosh darn it- before my husband got laid off and I had to get a paying job! Music is my passion and 3 weeks after I took the nursing job I got a job offer to teach music in Catholic schools- the pay is lousy- 30 grand a year, as a nurse, I make 40 grand a year for 20 hours a week- so I have more free time to practice piano, and to be in other bands- but I have been working full time for orientation, and I have only been practicing on 2 days a week- not enough! My down fall is FSFM- short for feeling sorry for myself. So I fight that in myself becuase if I give in to it, I tend to feel lousy. PIano is DIFFICULT- really- I am still working on getting the trill perfect in measure 6- I really wish I could practice 5 or 6 hours a day- I really love it that much, but life intrudes. So back I go now to the piano- after listening again to the recording Kathleen provided. My goal is to get the trill in m.6 and the roll in m. 7 just right. I did try to play one day last week without scales and Hanon and it did not work well at all.