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#1115453 - 07/22/06 01:30 PM Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
These are some links to various topics on this subject. Chopin's Nocturne 55.1
Introduction and General Information on Nocturne
Free Sheet Music for Nocturne
Recording of Nocturne by Maryanna
Those Tricky Trills and Grace Notes
More on Trill Notes
On What Note Do Trills Start?
The Rolled Chords
Portrait of our Hero by Delacroix
Linear Diagram of Measure 6 (courtesy of btb)
Measure 3 - Double Flat?? Suggestion for Trill Practice
Sight Reading Advice
How Fast Should It Go??
What Staccato Notes??
The Triplets!!
Still More on Triplets

LINK WORK STILL IN PROGRESS[/b]

It has 102 measures, if I counted right. If you can make a copy of your transcript and number the measures, it will be so much easier when referring to a specific measure which is causing us problems or for which we have some questions.

My transcription is from a CD I purchased, but I know you can download it free from in Internet.

The following is some general information I got from a site on the internet to give you some background information.
****************
Nocturne for piano No. 15 in F minor, Op. 55/1, CT. 122
Date: 1842 -1844
Main Performer: Fryderyk Chopin
Genre: Keyboard
Period: Romantic (1820-1869)
Review
Fryderyk Chopin's penultimate group of Nocturnes (only the Opus 67 pair were composed at a later date: all the posthumously published Nocturnes were actually the work of the composer's younger days), the Two Nocturnes, Op.55, have had a turbulent and often unhappy history. While most musicians of the late-Twentieth Century regarded them as two of the finest entries in the genre, during much of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Century the pair was ignored by the majority of concertizing pianists. (Such sweeping changes of general opinion are often very informative: during the same Victorian period that the Opus 55 Nocturnes were in disservice the Opus 37 Nocturnes were widely considered the most masterful of the entire collection, while a hundred years later the precisely opposite view reigns). Certainly it is easy to understand the professional neglect heaped on the Nocturne in F minor, Op.55, No.1, which, due to its relative technical ease, has become the property of amateurs and students around the globe. The E-flat Nocturne, Op.55, No.2, however, is a work of extraordinary power and a testament to both the masterly command of Chopin's later years and the distance he has traveled since the Fieldian Nocturnes of his Opus 9. The primary melody of the Nocturne in F minor, Op.55, No.1, has to it a bittersweet tang. The piece as a whole is cast in the characteristic ABA (ternary) form, with a dramatic and anxious middle section. An exciting stretto passage leads directly into the reprise of the opening theme, which has itself assimilated something of the second subject's agitation. A welcome harmonic change (from the minor to the major mode) as the coda progresses, and a trio of arpeggiated chords make a firm conclusion. This Nocturne, though clearly less inspired than some of its brothers and sisters, makes an effective "entry-level" piece for those players and listeners seeking a clear glimpse of the composer's basic style.

***********************

Well, the above is just one person's opinion. That it is somewhat easier (other than after meaasure 55) is fine with me. I don't mind being considered a beginner, since (in my opinion I am) compared to many of you.

I should add that this piece was dedicated to Jan Stirling, the Scottish woman who took care of Chopin in those last few years when he was at death's door. She was a wealthy woman and really wanted to marry Chopin, but (paraphrasing) he said he was ready for the death-bed not the marriage bed. She was quite generous to him. Paid the rent for a very nice apartment in an exclusive area of Paris in which he died. She even paid for his funeral. All though Chopin liked her (and her sister), they got on his nerves with all the fussing they did over him. She and Chopin's sister Ludwika (sp?) became close. After Chopin's death, she made sure that his sister got all the letters he wrote and some of his unfinished compositions. However, his wish that his unfinished pieces be destroyed was not granted. At Sand's request, his sister sent back to her all the letters Sand wrote to Chopin. And Sand destroyed them.

Anyone who wants to add any additional background information, please feel free to do so.

Otherwise, we're off to the races, so to speak.

********************

I have the first question (one of many, I'm sure). Someone said the first 55 measures are smooth sailing and that appears to be true. I played through the first page and had no real problems other than the trills, measures 7 and 15.

I've played Chopin trills many times, but these seem more complicated (more notes).

So the first question is: How are we playing the trills I mentioned and will all of them in the following pages be played in the same manner?

Thanks, Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115454 - 07/22/06 04:53 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
I've worked up to the "piu mossa" part. That's going to be the tough part for me. Kathleen, those trills have me confused as well. I listened to a recording and I'm thinking that first trill (measure7)goes Bb to C. The second, measure 15 I think does the same going grace note A/Bb to C. That's the one I'm not sure about as in my score it has the Bb twice (like A,Bb,Bb,C). But just hitting that Bb once and trilling up to C and back sounds better to me. I'm hoping someone can clear that up? The next one (measure 31) looks like it goes A,Bb then C to Bb.

And BTW, I have rolls written in for measures 8 and16. After the mistaken roll in my raindrop score I just want to make sure that's what everyone else has as well.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115455 - 07/22/06 05:06 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Thanks, Peyton. Wow...you're going strong.

Yes, I do have a roll for m 8 (and 9) and for 16 (and 17).

I'm going to play back the piece (I have it on audacity) and slow it down on the trills, so I can count the number of notes played and see if I can tell what they are. You may be right. I'm going to test your theory out right now.

Thanks, Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115456 - 07/22/06 05:35 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Pianolina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 204
I wasn't having any trouble with the trills until I read this thread ;\) . Now I'm not sure what I am (was?) doing or what I should be doing...

Where are the rolled chords you two are talking about? I started working on the first two pages and haven't run across any yet.

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#1115457 - 07/22/06 08:13 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pianolina:
I wasn't having any trouble with the trills until I read this thread ;\) . Now I'm not sure what I am (was?) doing or what I should be doing...

Where are the rolled chords you two are talking about? I started working on the first two pages and haven't run across any yet. [/b]
I haven't studied in such a long time that I'm betting those trills are fairly standard and I just don't know how to read them.

The rolls in my score (and I can hear them rolled in the recording I have) are chords in measures 8 and16. In fact the roll in 16 has the Bb hit twice (once as a grace note and then again for the chord). (The chord is the Bb/E/Ab)
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115458 - 07/22/06 08:20 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Pianolina: Tell us what you have been doing with those trills. I'm sure we all would like to know.

The rolled (or broken) chords are in measures 8 (in the RH, the Bb, E natural, Ab). In the next measure, a small one (again RH, the first chord Ab, F).

Again in measure 16 same as measure 8 and 17 same as measure 9. Again, repeated, in measures 32 and 33. Again in 48 and 49 (the LH is rolled also...an F/C chord).

In measure 53, (LH C,Eb, C and the RH.. Eb, G, grace note D natural, C)

Measure 57 (LH G, D natural, Eb...RH Bb, D natural, grace note A natural, G)

Do you have these? There are more 64, 99, 100, 101, 102.

Let me know if you need the details on last measures mentioned.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115459 - 07/22/06 08:37 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Pianolina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 204
I'm genuinely uncertain about how I was playing those trills. My fingers became shy once I started to study them. As best as I can figure it, I start the first trill on the Bb to retain smoothness in the melodic line. I think I start the second trill on the C to avoid a repeated Bb in the ornament - Again for smoothness.

I can hear the rolled chords in my recording too, but unfortunately they are not marked on my score. Maybe I should just look around for some other sheet music and mark them in myself. It sounds like there are a lot missing - It might be hard for you to descibe all of them.

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#1115460 - 07/22/06 09:06 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
If your transcription doesn't contained the rolled chords, I wonder what else it is missing?

Perhaps it would be best to download a free copy from the site below. Go to the bottom of the site and click on Chopin and all his works will come up, then scroll to the nocturne and click it. It will be downloaded to your computer and then you can print it out. I think this is where I got mine.

Free Sheet Music

Good luck. I'll try your suggestion for the trills. Thanks, Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115461 - 07/22/06 09:33 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Pianolina Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 204
Thanks for the link. I compared the scores and marked in the missing rolls. Everything else seems fine. I read the score while listening to the recording to double-check. I wonder why it's like that - I've definitely played other pieces out of that book where there are explicitly marked rolled chords (yes, in the correct places ;\) ).

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#1115462 - 07/22/06 09:46 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Good, I'm glad it worked out.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115463 - 07/22/06 10:41 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
qtpi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Hockessin, Delaware
I started back playing piano tonight- for 45 minutes- the longest amount of time by far I have planned since January! It is great to be back! My husband was laid off from his job in the spring, and I started a nursing refresher course in February, which consumed my time. After I finished that,I accepted a full-time position at a local hospital, and after August, I will be working about twenty hours a week.

I started with 4 exercises from Hanon,scale study, and then the first Bach invention- which I found surprisingly difficult. That had been my pattern for daily practice in the past- warmup with scales, Hanon,and Bach. After having such a difficult time at warmup, I was surprised how easily the Chopin came. The left hand was hitting all the right chords,the right hand playing along legato.

So ...I also need to get the trills down. In the 8th measure, I hit the half note C with my thumb, then hit the B flat with 2 , trilling to C on 3. I am planning to isolate that trill this week- work on it by playing it 5 times smoothly and correctly a day.
_________________________
qtpi

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#1115464 - 07/22/06 10:59 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by qtpi:


So ...I also need to get the trills down. In the 8th measure, I hit the half note C with my thumb, then hit the B flat with 2 , trilling to C on 3. I am planning to isolate that trill this week- work on it by playing it 5 times smoothly and correctly a day. [/b]
For that trill I'm hitting the half note with my thumb but then switching to 3. I'm then playing the Bb with 2 and trilling to C with 4. I still can't figure out exactly how that trill in 15 is supposed to be played. My score makes it look like the Bb is hit twice before trilling to C. That just doesn't seem right.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115465 - 07/23/06 06:34 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Peyton,
Having spent a good hour trying vainly to add a picture dropped to my blurb ... would you be kind enough to provide me with a pointer to how the blazes it is done... greatly appreciated.

Might just have the linear image to make those trills make more sense.

However, in the meanwhile I had written down a
whole tribe of words to describe measure 6.

Measure 6 can be considered to be split into quarters with the first half a held halfnote C.

The third quarter contains the trill with the 3 notes Bb, A and Bb (trill) forming the first half and the following A and Bb the second half.

The 4th quarter is a dotted 8th C closed with a Db.

Measure 7 drops to the Ab.

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#1115466 - 07/23/06 06:47 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa

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#1115467 - 07/23/06 06:49 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry chaps ... far too large ... back to the drawing board!!

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#1115468 - 07/23/06 07:32 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa

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#1115469 - 07/23/06 08:19 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
btb, how do you read the trill in measure 15? I'm not so concerned with the duration as I am with exactly what notes to play. Is it Grace notes Ab-Bb then Bb again trilling (Bb-C)?
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115470 - 07/23/06 08:49 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Peyton,
My ABRSB edition shows an opening A (not Ab) leading into the trill Bb/C (repeated 3 times) before the 5 crisp stacatto grace notes
A, Bb, C, Eb, Db ... dropping to the halfnote Ab.

Do you know how to reduce the screen to normal size ... for some reason the thing has doubled in size ... probably due to my mismanagement of the size of pictures.

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#1115471 - 07/23/06 09:38 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
Hi btb:

There is a way to resize pictures and diagrams. But I forgot how to do it. It's done with a program called Imagine Resize. It's on my computer, but I don't know how to run it. Lots of help I am.

I think Frycek does and hopefully will read your threads today and resize them. I think I'll send a PM to Frycek right now, so we can get a normal size screen.

Not to worry, I did the same think myself a few weeks ago.

Seems we are going to have a few discussions about the trills. That's fine. Hope we can either find an authoritive source or come to a general agreement about them.

I am going to print out the rest of your and Peyon's suggestions on how to play the trills. I played the first one slowly on audacity and it sounds like it had 10 notes in it. That's not too unusual for Chopin. I don't mind playing all the notes, just want to know where to start it (he usually starts on the upper note) and where to end and how many notes to play.

As someone once say: Oy Vey!!

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

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#1115472 - 07/23/06 10:00 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Peyton,
My ABRSB edition shows an opening A (not Ab) leading into the trill Bb/C (repeated 3 times) before the 5 crisp stacatto grace notes
A, Bb, C, Eb, Db ... dropping to the halfnote Ab.

Do you know how to reduce the screen to normal size ... for some reason the thing has doubled in size ... probably due to my mismanagement of the size of pictures. [/b]
Woops...I meant A not Ab. Yes that's what I thought! The way it's written in my score it was making me think the Bb was hit twice but what you say makes sence and sounds right. thanks.

Yea those pictures have really messed up the size of the thread.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115473 - 07/23/06 10:03 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
I e-mailed Frycek and said we needed help! It should be coming soon.

Kathleen
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115474 - 07/23/06 10:52 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
MaryAnna Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 400
Loc: Florida
Okay, I finally played through it, and it's...doable. Not easy, but doable. It'll take me awhile...
_________________________
Mary Anna Evans
Author of the Faye Longchamp mysteries
http://www.maryannaevans.com
Blogging at maryannaevans@blogspot.com

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#1115475 - 07/23/06 10:56 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Panic over Peyton,
I think I've got it licked.
However my first bash is a Delacroix painting of Chopin. [/b]
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115476 - 07/23/06 10:58 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:

Hoping this proportional linear diagram of measure 6 of the Chopin Nocturne 55.1 has emerged at a reasonable size... to convey the duration split of notes. C takes up half the measure.
the trill 3 notes in an eighth of the measure ... then two sixteenth notes completing the third quarter of the measure.

Thanks for your patience. [/b]
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115477 - 07/23/06 11:03 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
When btb deletes his original images the look of the thread should return to normal. It's nice to me needed. Sorry I took so long. If anyone pm'd me, I didn't get it.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1115478 - 07/23/06 11:25 AM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
loveschopintoomuch Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 4690
Loc: Illinois
You are a sweetheart...and YOU are always NEEDED and APPRECIATED!

For all the background information you provide, the photos (which add so much to our appreciation and knowledge of Chopin and his life) for all the suggestions and helful tips you give, for all those links that are invaluable, and the humorous quips you add.

HOW can you ever think you are not needed??

I didn't PM you. I never know if you get them.

Gratefully, Kathleen

PS btb...just delete your images and as Frycek stated, they should become smaller in size.
_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Top
#1115479 - 07/23/06 12:32 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
A special thank you to Frycek for getting the team back on track. I've spent ages trying to find where the heck those images are to delete but with no success.

If everybody else is not inconvenienced by my blunder in oversizing the pictures ... I think I'm going to call it a day ... SA time is 18h30
and time for supper and a look at what additional
missles have been launched in the Middle East...
maybe not!!

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#1115480 - 07/23/06 12:33 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
A special thank you to Frycek for getting the team back on track. I've spent ages trying to find where the heck those images are to delete but with no success.

If everybody else is not inconvenienced by my blunder in oversizing the pictures ... I think I'm going to call it a day ... SA time is 18h30
and time for supper and a look at what additional
missles have been launched in the Middle East...
maybe not!!

Top
#1115481 - 07/23/06 12:39 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
A special thank you to Frycek for getting the team back on track. I've spent ages trying to find where the heck those images are to delete but with no success.
[/b]
btb, all you need to do is push "edit" for the posts with the large pictures, highlight the jpgs and hit delete.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1115482 - 07/23/06 12:47 PM Re: Chopin Nocturne Study Group
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Peyton,
Sorry to be a bit of a drag ... and thank you for
being so considerate ... but where do I find the posts with the large pictures so that I can hightlight the jpgs and hit delete.

When I tried it on the "Full Reply Form" ... there was an instant bold-lettered warning:
"Only administrators or moderators may perform this action"

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