Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Sudnow - first impressions (long)

Well there you go, chprout! Looks like Sudnow is the method for you!

To Bob (and any other Sudnowites out there) ...

I've decided to commit to the Sudnow philosophy because it looks like the most bang for buck: sure, lots of formulas and rules to absorb, but logarithmic increase in acquisition as work progresses and ultimately a very rewarding grasp of the skill required for sight reading from fake books with a professional sound.

My impression is that a very key concept is one Dave Sudnow accents in his talk for a brief moment...look at the keyboard, because eventually each of the twelve scales will become a "picture" (whose elements you will be instantaneously modifying according to his formula, once you get sight reading down).

Thus, before I jump in to his frighteningly didactic method, whose rules I fully intend to obey, I'm sitting at the piano each night for 60-90 minutes and just playing the twelve scales. Don't laugh, I just want to bring myself, a beginner, up to a level of familiarity with this basis so I don't have to worry about learning scales as well as his formula all at once.

Does this sound like a plan?

"frighteningly didactic"? hmmm, alrighty then.

I hope you're not spending 60-90 minutes at the piano all at one time! Much, much better to break up the sessions into 20-minutes each. Focus on very specific tasks. Perhaps 2-5 minutes on each scale with complete focus including focussing on the intervals. Once 20 minutes is up, take a 5 minute break and start on the next task(s).

Thanks for the Sudnow review Bob. It sounds very interesting, and prompted me to order it just now. It sounds just right, and $40 isnt very much, so I'm really looking forward to it.

The timing was just right for me, as I just quit my piano lessons today and was pondering my next move when I saw your post. Its been over a year, and I felt a need for a different direction, as yet unknown.

Thanks for the tip on the breaks, Bob. I know I should break it up but right now these scales are showing me patterns and playing them is almost philip glass-like...I can deal for an hour. Right now I'm like a kid in a candy store.

I've noticed some picture patterns to the scales that makes learning them pictorially, like Dave Sudnow suggests, a bit easier.

C is easy;
Db has a repeat pattern (the first 4 notes are the same picture as the second four);
D is also a 4 and 4 picture;
Eb is also a 4 and 4 picture;
E is also a 4 and 4 picture;
F is easy, just have to remember the Bb;
Gb uses all the black notes plus B and F;
G is easy...just have to remember the F#;
Ab the first 3 notes look like the second 3;
A is also a 3 and 3;
Bb is also a 3 and 3 and it looks like two "w's";
and B is again a 3 and 3.

For the Sudnow takers, study the card of the major scale, you'll see these shapes I'm describing.

For any guitar players out there learning the Sudnow method or anything else requiring rather instant recognition of thirds, fifths, sevenths, etc., during instant chord changes, if you've learned barre chords, and have played blues patterns in different keys with barre chords and the moving C7th shape, you can get a quick brain-reference to first, fourths and fifths if you think of your blues patterns: E-A-B; C-F-G; F-Bb-C; Eb-Ab-Bb; etc, to give you a quick reference point to the middle of any scale; then you just have to remember the second, which is easy, the third, which minors so there's maybe a reference you can quick-hit, the sixth (you know the fifth), and the seventh, a half step below the root.

I hope this isn't confusing. I've just cornered a couple ways to jump-start my knowledge of scales, which I must confess I've never learned after all these years of guitar, and I thought it might help.

Another tip...you can cut and paste the dot diagrams strip-wise on a wide page to save page-turning time.

Bob...please delete this post, I fixed the problem in my previous message. Thanks.

I received my copy of Sudnows CDs yesterday. Confirmation said airmail, but it was media mail, so it was slow. It's really too new to comment, but I've watched the video so far, and listened to the first three CDs once, but not yet the two supplemental CD. Other than his dots, and one fingered scales, I thought the third audio CD was really the only new content so far, the ideas of spitting and embellishing the chords seems good stuff (and hard to play too ) I sure wish I had that manual he keeps mentioning. I do have the downloaded material and the cards, but organization is a real problem. Maybe it makes more sense later. And one would have thought the notion of quarter notes and eighth notes might be a factor of piano too

I thought it was interesting that Sudnow made a casual reference about every 5th being a scale note (meaning in C, G is the 5th and then in G, D is the 5th, etc. Every sequential 5th is a note within the root scale).

So I tried this for Misty's scale of Eb:

Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm D0
I ii iii IV V vi vii

In Eb, Bb is the 5th
In Bb, F is the 5th
In F, C is the 5th
In C, G is the 5th
in G, D is the 5th
in D, A is the 5th

Oops! why didnt that come out Ab? A is not in this scale. Why the mismatch? Until that point, it gave the scale notes of Eb as expected, just a different order (I havent figured out the reorder thing, maybe it is not significant).

I knew vii is always diminished, meaning that for this D at vii, both its 3rd and 5th are flatted. That is true if vii, but I wasnt expecting it for this every 5th sequence. But I suppose D in this Eb scale must be considered diminished because it is vii, then it does give Ab as the diminished 5th, then followed by Eb at the octave again. That has to be it, but it takes this additional data to work out, more than just every sequential 5th.

Further, in reverse, the astounding thing is that it seems a real good bet that this must be WHY vii is always diminished. It doesnt complete the scale otherwise.

Anyway, I thought that was neat, and it helps my understanding, at least my acceptance. I had not realized that "every 5th" relationship as another way to build the scale. Who ever figured this stuff out 600 years ago must have been pretty sharp. For quite a few months, I thought they were diabolical

"I sure wish I had that manual he keeps mentioning."

The "manual" is the card deck.

So after a month, what is your impression of the Sudnow method Bob? Does it show signs of promise for you?

I havent started yet, and I'm still trying to decide my procedure. I know he says no deviations allowed at first, but I keep looking at the music in conventional format and thinking surely I can adapt his chord phrasing ideas into that format.

Yes it does show signs of promise. But no more than when I listened to the CDs for the first time. I'm working his method exactly as he describes.

That is, I'm working on fingering the 12 major scales, (although I'm adding the left hand as well), and I'm working on Misty. Unfortunately, due to work, home renovation, Fur Elise and "Oh Holy Night", I haven't practiced as much as I would like on Misty. I've only made it up to the tree.

"Look at me, I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree"....THAT tree, yo, Bob you better get moving and get out of that tree

I really love that song too.

Thanks for the information, Bob.

How long is it supposed to take to achieve the goals of the course? (Sorry if this has already been answered, but I couldn't see it anywhere.)

"How long is it supposed to take to achieve the goals of the course?"

Sorry, too many variables:

- How much time spent practicing
- How efficiently the practice takes place
- Hom much already learned (starting point)
- How quickly learning is absorbed

etc. etc.

But in general, Sudnow says that someone with over a years piano lessons should be able to get Misty down within a month and be well on their way to voicing their own songs within three months.

Great posts, Bob.

A couple of questions:

What songs does David's method prescribe before working up to Misty? (Does he present Misty in the key of Eb?)
What tunes does he follow with after Misty?

Can you outline his "rules" for voicing?

Thanks,
rintincop

"What songs does David's method prescribe before working up to Misty?"

None. Misty, fully voiced is the first song. That's why it can take a complete beginner a couple of months to be able to play it. But the key is that the chords used for Misty are part of the foundation you're building.

"Does he present Misty in the key of Eb?"

Yes.

"What tunes does he follow with after Misty?"

The second song is "As Time Goes By" (in C) and the third is "Danny Boy" (in Eb). With the first two, they are fully voiced and notated. With Danny Boy, he provides part of the voicing notation, but you are to finish it before learning the piece.

There are two more free songs you can download from his website, "Somewhere over the Rainbow" and "Someone to Watch over Me". But I think I'm going to try my hand at voicing my own song before learning those.

"Can you outline his "rules" for voicing?"

No, I'm afraid not. I mean, that's why you buy the course. But there's much more to his philosophy than voicing.

Basically he believes that we learn best by doing. We didn't learn to ride a bicycle by reading the manual and then sitting through physics lessons and steering and braking drills. We hopped on the bike, went 'til we fell, got back on, fell, and kept at it until we stayed up.

That's why he has us learn a real, fully voiced song from the beginning. Sure it's a lot of work, but it's worth it! He could have made a LOT more money be coming up with a whole system. He could have started out with songs where you just play the melody, then songs where you play the root and the melody, etc. etc. I truly believe that he is most interested in having successful students than in making a ton of money.

Unfortunately, since I wrote the original review back in December, the price has gone up. The course is now only sold as a complete course for $80 with shipping. But compared to most of the dreck out there, it's still a bargain! You can easily spend that much on just one month of lessons.

I'll be posting Friday on my progress after my first full month of practicing.

Thanks again, Bob.

Is there an audio file online of Misty being played as arranged by Sudnow?

"Is there an audio file online of Misty being played as arranged by Sudnow?"

No, but I'll be posting a recording of me playing it, which will probably give a better idea.