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I'd say start at the beginning! It's nice to get that left hand descending run in your fingers at the outset because it shows up so many times. That and the arpeggiated figure that starts in measure 9 are the characteristic left hand figurations of the piece. They are also easy to memorize.

See how the passage I posted is arranged in four groups of 16th notes? Pretend that you are only responsible for one group at a time. Give the slightest hint of an accent to the first note of each group. (You don't want to overdo it or it will sound too chunky!) That's what lends a rhythmic pulse to what would otherwise be an endless stream of 16th notes.

Thanks jazzy, I thought that's what you meant.

I already have what I believe is comfortable and efficient fingering for the left hand for the first page, but I'm not so sure about the right hand fingering in the 8th measure.

How does this fingering arrangement compare with what you all have worked out for those right hand 16th notes in m8: (?)

2-1-5-4, 3-1-4-3, 2-1-4-3, 1-3-4-3

Jeff--I have changed my fingering ten times now. It's very hard for me to find something comfortable at a slow speed that remains comfortable as I move it faster. Here's what I'm doing in measure 8 in the RH:

2-1-4-3, 2-1-4-3, 2-1-2-1, 3-2-3-2, 1---

Keep in mind that I have tiny hands and pretty inflexible fingers, so I probably never go from 1-5 if I can find any other way. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to hit the RH chord in measure 3--I can't reliable stretch a 5th with my 5 and 3 fingers, and that's a pretty important chord, so I'm not willing to dump any of the notes. With the LH tempo so fast, I can't imagine trying to play one of them with that, so I'm back to just trying to get more accurate at the chord as it is written.

The fingering that is really giving me fits is the LH on measure 18. The good thing is that I have practiced these runs so many times they have gotten into memory fairly easily. I have never done so much hands separate practice with a piece before. I know some teachers are opposed to any HS practice, so I hope I'm not setting myself up for some problems later.

Nancy

Nancy,
Keep in mind that generally fingering you pick at slow tempi will change as you speed up. I just started teaching myself this piece for the sheer love of it and everything Chopin wrote! and my "just" I mean I've played through it twice so far. The fingerings I'm using I am not married to, and will change them as I speed up. I usually don't pick fingerings to begin with until I'm a bit further along, because right now I'm still sight reading it. So, just remain flexible with your fingerings and adjust them as needed until you get closer to performance tempo, at which point fingering should be solidified.

I'm playing HT for now, but I always do some HS practice as I try to increase the speed. I'm not one who doesn't believe in HS practice, but I like to get an overall sense of the piece the first week or so. Once I discover the tough areas then I do HS practice concentrating on those difficult measures only.

Thanks for your thoughts, Morodiene. It makes me a little nervous to hear that my fingerings might change after all this thought I've put into them, but it makes sense that what works slowly doesn't work very quickly. I'll try to stay flexible.

I have just begun to do some HT practice. I find the dynamics the trickiest part--so many times I find the RH getting louder while the LH decrescendos! This will take some work to get used to, but the effect is great when I hear other pianists play it.

I agree with your reasoning for learning this piece. I enjoy every phrase, even at my snail's tempo!

Nancy

I've also found I've had to change established fingering patterns after speeding up a piece, but less so that I once did.

In addition to selecting fingering that allows for more efficiency, I've used some fingering as "mental cues" that something was about to happen. I'm typing this from my office so it's hard to express what I'm trying to say. I'm remembering a particular Bach Fugue where the fingering was a big part of memorizing particular passages. If this doesn't make any sense I'll find the score later & try to clarify my point.

I seem to recall a past teacher telling me it was important to select the best fingering at the early stages of learning a piece.

Opus 45 is right that as you get more experienced you do tend to pick better fingerings, but still allowing those to change will only improve things, not take you a step backward.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while it's great to keep dynamics in mind, when playing under tempo it is often much more difficult to do things such as crescendos and diminuendos accurately. It can also distract you when you are in the beginning stages of note reading a piece. Sometimes it is best to focus on one task at a time, learning the notes with as much accuracy in pitch, duration, and articulation as possible. As this gets easier, then consider dynamics and phrasing so you aren't overwhelmed with everyone all at once.

Hi, you all hard workers! This is so cool!
Thanks to LisztAddict's practice recording (which I downloaded and listened several times) and everybody's encouragements, eventhough I know this is way~~way beyond my reach, I decided to, at least, give it a try.
Lastnight I had my computer on my piano top and played the whole piece hands separate very slowly. It is amazing feel that I am actually practicing this piece. I am already proud.

One fingering question.
Measure 27, right hand, the 3rd cord, with E-F-A-D: I can do it with 1-2-3-5 but hurts my finger #2 muscle. So I am omitting 2(F) and just doing 1-3-5 so that I can keep practicing without spending too much time on this cord.
Should I keep trying 1-2-3-5 until it gets less painful hoping the muscle will get used to it eventually? Or is there a better fingering for this?

I am really enjoying this process. Thank you all and have a good musical day.

okay, here is my favorate. It is arranged into a rock style. Have fun.

oops, forgot the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSkh5dgn69U&feature=related

I have rather small hands, and this one gives me a challenge as well. I can play it without pain only if I play very high on all the keys with fingers 1-2-3-5. There's really no other fingering that would work. If you play too low, however, you have to contort your hand. To avoid this, play higher up so that all fingers are playing in the black key area (hope this makes sense, not playing the white keys on the lower, fatter part). If you do this and it is still painful and not simply stretching things, then it's OK to leave out the F. It's played in the LH twice on that beat.

Thank you! I tried your suggestion and it seems to work for me. Do you always remember to do that? I have to make sure to remember this trick even when I put some speed on.
Thank you again.

I am practicing the Nocturne Op.9-2 at the same time just to have something I can play in the correct speed. I love Chopin but there isn't many songs I can play well. This study group gave me a motivation to learn more Chopin songs. Thanks to you guys! Okay, back to practice....

Hi, everybody in this study group, I hope you guys don't mind me asking a question about the 2nd mov of Beethoven Pathetique sonata.

I taught myself this song long time ago, never bothering with the "holding notes". I hope you know what I'm talking about, because I don't know what the proper name for this skill where you hold your finger on the key to keep that particular note going without using the pedal, I mean the sustain pedal. And please bear with my English as it is my 3rd language.
So, in fact I've been using the pedal almost throughout the movement. I knew I was not playing it right but enjoyed playing that way without having to work so hard. (I know I've been bad... :rolleyes: )
Now I am trying to learn more skills while I'm learning this Chopin piece and some Beethoven and Mozart (and even more, as I agree with most of you that I shouldn't focus on Revolutionary Etude. I am thinking one year to learn it as well).

Today when I tried "holding notes" of this 2nd mov of Pathetique, I realized I needed some advice.
For example, right hand of the measure 3, I find it very difficult to hold finger 4(or5) when you go from E to A playing the lower part of the right hand (fingers 1-2 with B-E-C-A) at the same time. I can almost make it but the E-A (upper part of the right hand) are not really connected like the most pianists' recordings.

Would it get better over time, or do you use a little help of pedal?
My life would be a lot easier if I can just use the pedal, but I do recognize the difference when I try really hard without using the pedal. I can see why Beethoven didn't use the pedal.

This is such a beautiful song, I'm taking a big step to learn it properly. I will very much appreciate any input of yours.

Holding down some notes/fingers while play and lift other notes/fingers, that's quite a bit advanced stuff. Try one hand alone and play it very very slowly so the brain can control each movement of each finger.

If you want to improve your skill in this area, practice the first few finger exercises by Dohnanyi.

Be patient. With practice, you will be able to do it. Once your 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers can play independently, you will say to yourself "wow, this is so simple".

Thanks, LisztAddict.
I tried your advice. You're absolutely right. I think it is going take a lot of patience and time until I can play this completely without the pedal. But I don't mind taking time at all, and I am pretty good at being patient. I haven't found Dohnanyi yet, but I will try later. Thanks again.

BTW, I am playing along with your practice recording, and it is so much fun. I haven't used a metronome for a long time, but today I found it very helpful and fun to play like you. I have to say, using your recording has opened a whole lot of a new world of my practice time, so thank you for posting that.

This is a question to everyone in this thread: How many of you memorize the whole thing hand separate and work on speed before you start practicing hand together? I believe that's what Chang says in his book, and I find it almost impossible for a piece like this.
I am one of those really good sight readers but when it comes to memorizing, I don't even know how to describe how bad I am. I can do some short music, but not this, and not hand separate, (no kidding! ).

I feel that once I practice countless times, I will be dreaming about the score and my heart and hands will remember the music. (That's what happened when I was much younger.)
I envy those who can memorize and perform long and complicated pieces without sheet music. I wonder what would have happened if I didn't stop my lessons when I was 16 and kept playing throughout my life? (I'm 41 now, but it seems my memory is a lot worse than others around my age.)
Ever since I started relearning piano 3 years ago, I have performed in front of small private groups only a few easy and short pieces without sheet music.
I'm curious to see how you guys are doing with memorizing this piece. What are your plans to memorize? Anybody who is not going to memorize at all?

Hi Coffeelover--

I find that memory comes to me as I work on the piece. After practicing the fingering for the whole piece (LH), I realized I had pretty well memorized the first 20 measures of the LH. I had to just make sure I wasn't repeating a pattern one too many measures, but otherwise it came pretty easily. One thing that really helps me is to view the piece theoretically--to see that the first run is basically the G7 chord, etc. Then the notes don't look like they were randomly chosen. It's a little like trying to remember this series of letters: ksnehlpqituwn or this series: revolutionary. They're the same length, but since I understand how the second series of letters is put together, I could repeat it to you much more easily than the first series. Theory does that for me, though I wish I knew it as well as I know English spelling!

There is no way I can ever play a piece this fast that requires this many large hand motions and NOT memorize it. Looking at the keyboard is a must for my accuracy. I just don't have a strong enough sense of where the keys are to jump around without looking.

When I memorize, I take one section at a time (say 2-3 lines). I look at the patterns, the theory, the fingering, then I play it through very slowly. Then I start with the first measure in that section, look at it very hard, and see how much I can remember. If I can't do it, I try to figure out what is the stumbling block, work that out, then try again. Once I do it right, I speed it up a bit. Once it's very confident, I move on to the next measure.

I find that the easier a piece is to read from the start, the harder time I have memorizing it. That's one good thing about the Revolutionary Etude--it was a bear for me to read and finger, but I am getting the benefit from that in the memorizing!

Nancy

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Dear Nancy,

Thank you for your reply. Please don't take this rude, but I don't quite understand how knowing the chord will help memorizing. I just can't connect the dots. I have never used chord to play classical music, and done't even know what exactly the G7 chord is. I am helpless here. I feel like I have been missing a lot. Is it important to know chords to memorize or even for other skills?
When you compared it to English spelling, in my mind I pictured you memorizing all the chords in order that are in this music and recall them as you play by memory. Is that what you meant? I somehow doubt it. Maybe you can clearify for me.

Nancy, by the way, I think I like your idea of trying one measure at a time when you memorize, actually since you mentioned I realize that's what I have been trying.
I know somewhat it will take a long time. I mean long long time. Just to think about it, it makes me depressed.
Well, I just wanted to say thank you again.

I am kind of addicted to piano since I joined this thread. I am in a different state far away from home, lost my job, taking care of MIL (mother-in-law) who suffered from a spinal cord injury a while ago and learning how to walk again. She's doing a lot better and able to take care herself more recently, and that's why I have so much time to play piano and come to this thread so often. I stayed up after midnight as I found "Croatian Rhapsody" free score online which I printed right away and played for a while like a mad woman. (I had the volume of my digital piano way down)

Well, my point is I am very excited about this thread and am glad that you started it. That's what I wanted to say.