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Won't name the dealer as not to raise a mess but while hanging out at a Steinway store today, I heard a salesman "selling" a rebuild job to the owner of an older Steinway.

He made a huge production about replacing the pianos soundboard as it is the heart and soul of the piano.

What I find amazing about his "pitch" is the fact that Steinway's website still has an article about why cracked soundboards didn't matter. A new piano with a cracked board is okay but a customer has to spend thousands to replace a cracked board on an older piano?

As far as I know, there is not another piano builder which claims that cracked soundboards are okay.

The more I listen and read the more my personal opinion of Steinway as a company erodes. How can they have it both ways?

What you heard was a salesperson, not Steinway. Don't confuse the two. The salesperson makes a lot of money selling replacement soundboards.

My brother, an RPT of nearly 30 years, does say that a crack in the soundboard is not necessarily a big problem, but if so are usually easily repaired with shims.

How about this:

For a piano with cracked soundboard --

1. If it still sounds good (no buzz year round, regardless of whether it's shimmed/repaired), then it is OK.

2. Else, it is not.

Simple enough. Does that make sense?

Sounds like the bottom line to me.

Jchmag:

I'll throw this out for discussion if anyone would like to bite...

Maybe it *is* possible to have it "both ways", considering...

If a newer piano has a cracked soundboard, is it more likely it will still sound good (as long as there's no separation of the ribs/buzzing, etc.)??

Maybe so, considering...

If a *much older* piano has a cracked soundboard, even if there's no buzzing, isn't it more likely the soundboard should be replaced because:

1) The crown is probably gone. (If that really makes a difference and I understand there are differing opinions on this) and,

2) Perhaps more importantly, might the wood fibers in the soundboard be "crushed" having withstood years and years of high/low humidity, with the result the soundboard is "dead".

Experts?

Jeanne W

Jeanne, I'm no expert, but I tend to think you're right about this. Something about impedance and the ability of the board to carry sound waves as it was meant to.

This goes for an uncracked soundboard as well, regardless of age. Even simpler.

A new soundboard might sound better anyway ( it might sound worse depending on who installed it!)
and will give the piano a longer life.

Beware of technicians that don't have the ability to install new soundboards who are trying to sell you on the merits of keeping an old worn out board because they make a lot of money this way.

Jeanne,
You are right.
I wonder how did you get to be such a piano expert yourself.


Keith wrote:
Right on Keith.

Over here they are touting a dead soundboard as “authentic”.

POTENTIAL DUMB QUESTION ALERT:

What exactly is a "dead" soundboard? How can you tell if your soundboard has met its demise?

Seriously.

Maybe it's obvious from my question that all the soundboards I've encountered are amongst the living. But I've always wondered...

Nina,

It is not a dumb question, at all. A rebuilt piano with an original old soundboard vs. the same one with a brand spanking new one might sound no worse, or just different, or maybe it would be better. Not a clear-cut question, and one that, probably more than anything, requires experienced evaluation by a "true" rebuilder (or should I say, one of those few "true" rebuilders).

The problem is, absent obvious serious damage or deterioration, how do you tell for sure? A few cracks means nothing. Strings in an old piano are very likely to be "dead", and you know those are going to be replaced on a rebuild. So do you restring, stick in the completely rebuilt action, voice it up nicely--then, if the piano still sounds rather "dead", tear the whole thing apart and put in a new soundboard!? Well, of course not--much more economical from all points of view (actual costs, and marketing a rebuild) to just use a new soundboard. But it is not ALWAYS necessary, and not always an improvement--sometime, maybe the opposite, which could require some serious (way) before-and-after knowledge to truly evaluate.

Bottom line, you'd never just replace a soundboard alone, so if an older piano really does need a new one, you can be sure it really needs a true rebuild. (And I just don't believe "crown" by itself has as much meaning as people usually impart to it. Well-shimmed older boards can sound great--good shimming affects nothing AUDIBLE except the elimination of buzzes, et. al.)

Why are cracked soundboards such an emotional thing?

Because perhaps "cracked" = *broken* - hearts....

..... are!

norbert

As far as I can figure out, there isn't any reason to replace a soundboard, ever. First of all, I've only seen one piano that had a soundboard that sounded dead. That was a spinet that someone put in a bathroom, and the ribs had separated. It wasn't worth restoring. There isn't any reason why a soundboard under ordinary circumstances should be under any more stress as it gets older than it is when it is new. If the soundboard is going to fail, it's going to fail whan it is new.

Second, if you do all the work that some people claim you need to do with an old piano, replacing the soundboard, pinblock, action, keys, etc., saving only the frame and case, you have do practically all the work you need to do to make a new piano except making the frame and case, and you have the additional work of disassembly and removing the old finish. It has to be pretty much custom, as opposed to assembly-line work. You just aren't going to save that much money to get the same quality of work. You might as well just get a new piano.

On the other hand, if you just replace the things that are known to wear out, strings, springs, hammers, felts, and finish, you probably won't pay much more than the cheapest new piano. If you start with a decent old piano, it can come out a lot better than the cheapest new piano.

So I don't see any economic sense in doing a full rebuilding, including a soundboard.

THere often seems to be more emphasis on the condition of the soundboard from a physical perspective than there is on the actual sound of the instrument though.

I wonder where Irving is? I woulda thought he'd comment on this. ???

Jeanne W

Hopefully busy selling pianos for the holidays!

It is amazing how different BDB’s and my experiences are.
I almost NEVER find a soundboard older then 70 years that doesn’t need to be replaced.


The soundboard is made of spruce.
As the humidity changes, the soundboard expands and contracts. These movements damage the cells of the wood.

Take 2 fibers of the same kind of spruce, one that is 70 years old and one that is newer, and stretch the fibers, one would break before the other.
The older one would break first. The newer fiber will have more resilience.

An old soundboard will vibrate differently than a new one. It will produce less sound, all other things being equal. The loss of sustain will be noticeable first in the mid to upper treble, around the 5th octave.

Many times, old pianos that were ”rebuilt” with the original soundboard will lack so much sustain that the “rebuilder” will over harden the hammers in order to get some volume. This only makes the obvious “lack of sustain” become even more apparent.
Some people may think it's normal, but to many it sounds like someone pulled some strings over a tin can.

A piano is good only as what you compare it to. Take a good fully restored piano (with a new board) and place it near a similar one that was “rebuilt” with the original board and the difference is clear.

In some parts of the country, soundboards will last longer then in others. A constant humidity level may add many years to the life of the soundboard. But if a piano spent most of its life in one climate zone will be moved to another it will deteriorate very fast.

In my experience there's also the psychological element of "feel" involved.

If you already are willing to spend the $$ to rebuild the whole piano, it - at least for some - doesn't *feel* right to leave the soundboard *old* and potentially decrepit in the original corpus.

Which leaves to debate, if the *frame* - holding the soundboard in its place, at least in some cases - could/should not be perhaps rebuild as well.......

norbert :rolleyes:

Must have been one serious pianist - committed to utilizing all potential practice time.

The picture your words bring to mind is too funny. My children will have a good laugh when I tell them.