I asked my kids' piano teacher if he'd ever seen any Marx Brothers movies, and he answered no. I told him that I thought that a piano pedagogist should do a scholarly study of Chico's technique...here's an example:
Go West

If you study his right hand/arm configuration in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fx252AgYeM&feature=related

which is shot at a very good angle to view this, his positioning from shoulder to finger tips is a textbook example of everything I advocate.

The fingers are activated from the hinge of the knuckles, a raised point of a triangular hand formation, the hand held index knuckle finger as the high point (not flattened out parallel to the keys, as would be necessary to balance coins on the back of the hands), descending at a 45 degree angle to the pinky knuckle, which is very close to the key tops.

Other than purposely exaggerating his motions for his finger wagging and trigger motions, his fingertips stay in close contact with the keys, applying only the necessary amount of key depression to sound the key.

His elbow is slightly below the level of the key bed, his forearm raised toward the wrist at about a 7 degree angle and the plane of his hand to the knuckle completes this same angle to the knuckle tops, which are the highest point of his playing mechanism.

Just before he plays his first right hand note, his entire mechanism is exactly where it should be to produce the most maximally advantageous playing position for most pianists.

I've never heard Chico play anything other than this type of music, but studying his technique and execution, I have no doubt that with practice there's not much in the repetorie that he wouldn't be equipped to play, though at concert level would be difficult to determine.

Excellent, completely relaxed, textbook technique.

I grew up watching the Marx Bros. What I thought was great about their movies is that in the midst of all of the hijinxs, the music was taken seriously, well, as serious as could be expected!

I'll always remember the Chico "pistol" fingering. And in "Horse Feathers", when Groucho walks up to the camera as Chico is about to play a song and says, "I have to stay here, but there's no reason you folks can't get up a grab a snack until this blows over". Classic.

Why is that an ideal playing posture? My tendons feel friction when I play that position.

Is your elbow raised when you feel the friction or do you feel it with your elbow relaxed at your side? Which tendons exactly? Where do you feel the friction and do you feel it whether you're playing chords, intervals, octaves, single notes? Do the dynamics affect the sensation of friction?

Interesting enough, many SELF TAUGHT pianists who haven't had pedagogy suggestions made like, "keep the hand level, fingers high, etc. INSTINCTIVELY approach technique with that type of hand configuration which is actually most natural to developing a "tickle type" of technique where minimal motions are in play at the surface of the keys, like the fluttering of insect wings capable of producing extreme velocity when directed in the correct manner.

I know Glenn Gould sat with his elbows way below the keys later in his career.

Here's Art Tatum's posture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzj6Q61h3oA

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Chick Corea's posture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRzkDFDDUM&feature=related

Oscar Peterson: The camera angle and the looseness of his jacket sleeve makes it somewhat hard to judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgmnlwjTRRw&feature=related

Kenny Barron looks level and slightly high and at times Brad Mehldau looks like his elbows are high sometimes but then other times he will lean forward causing the elbows to go low:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q97V_CSnqz0

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More Brad Mehldau, elbows look slightly elevated to me. The camera angle distorts reality, when the camera angle looks down from above his elbows look low, but when the camera angle is level they look slightly high. When he occasionally leans forward his elbows go down quite low, so he varies his position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCwauzeL27w

Mehldau looks level and occasionally raised here, shoulders move quite a bit, I think I have seen Jarrett move his shoulders a lot too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8j_LRFO4Lc

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Disciple,

I am a jazz pianist and have had tenosinivitis in both wrists ever since the third grade when playing tennis first brought on the condition in my right wrist. I have tightly packed narrow wrists channels.

My tenosinivitis is an inflammation of the linings that wrap around the tendons in my wrists and holds the synovial fluid. The inside of the linings get irritated from too much friction as the tendons rub and slide back and forth inside their linings. This creates inflammation and scarring of the tissue on a microscopic level. As the tissue inflames it swells which decreases circulation and further compounds the problem. The tissue becomes permanently scarred. The scarred tissue is rough and gritty which makes it worse. It's sort of like pulling a rope across a coarse surface, the ropes starts to fray.

I am experimenting with your posture advice:
"The fingers are activated from the hinge of the knuckles, a raised point of a triangular hand formation, the hand held index knuckle finger as the high point (not flattened out parallel to the keys, as would be necessary to balance coins on the back of the hands), descending at a 45 degree angle to the pinky knuckle, which is very close to the key tops."

"His elbow is slightly below the level of the key bed, his forearm raised toward the wrist at about a 7 degree angle and the plane of his hand to the knuckle completes this same angle to the knuckle tops, which are the highest point of his playing mechanism. " (end quote)

To get my elbows lower I have raised my keyboard stand 2" higher, it was quite low before. So now my elbows are below the level of the keys.

I think I am noticing less stress on my tendons. My usual position was the traditional forearms and knuckles parallel to the floor. I am going to need to get used to this new posture and see if it is less stressful over time b y playing with it several hours a day for a week or so. It feels good so far, I feel nimble and quick especially with stepwise playing. The only thing that could be a disadvantage playing so low is that large intervals, like stride in the left hand and octaves in the right hand feel trickier to target than when I was playing at level or from above. I think that may be why we see some jazz pianist sit high up like Garner and Hines.

If this new position helps my tenosinivitis and I can continue to play without hurting myself I will adopt it. I think you, Chico Marx and Glen Gould are on to something good!

Thanks,
rtc

Disciple,

I have some important questions and would be grateful for your thoughts.

1) I notice that when I am playing around middle C my forearm is raised toward the wrist at about a 10 degree angle, but as I play up the keyboard the angle decreases to around 7 degrees by the time I am 2 octaves above middle C.

2) Also, as I play a C scale from middle C ascending for four octaves should my elbow be in close near my rib cage when I am playing around the middle and then gradually move outward as I run up higher in the scale?

3) What about octaves? They seem to flatten the knuckle bridge because it's a wide interval span and my elbow tends to move out and away from my torso. Do you recommend elbow in or out for octaves?

4) Do you play the pinky on the white octaves and the 4th finger on the black octaves? Or all with pinky?

Thanks again,
rtc

There will be slight angular changes as the arm is drawn farther away or further towards your center. As long as you're tension free, whatever slight angular changes incurred by your forearm will be fine, natural and unstressed if your hand remains index knuckle high, the fingers fluttered from the knuckle.

Same applies. It has to adapt angularly otherwise conscious tension will be necessary to maintain the same angles when targeting at distances removed from your center of gravity.

Anything more than a 6th as far as combined intervals or chords will certainly flatten out the hand of most pianists. If you retain the same feeling in your hand that you do while playing single notes or close intervals when you're maintaining your pyramid, playing from the knuckle, though flattened, there will be no undue tension. From that angle you'll almost automatically avoid "clawing" like many do, letting the hand pyramid flatten and replacing it with the middle phalang of the fingers being the highest point, even higher than the knuckle.

Nothing produces more tension than that!

Trick question as I rarely play octaves! Improvising, I do play mostly b9ths, 9ths, 10ths, and sometimes all three together with the thumb splayed across three notes! As my video shows, my thumbs and pinkies are very frequently playing 2, and sometimes 3 notes, making for some dense aggregates, though carefully voice led.

When I do play octaves, as in classical music, it depends on the music. I use 1/3, 1/4, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 on chromatic octaves and standard 1/4, 1/5 on diatonic octaves.

Also, Rin, I tried to PM you and your mailbox is full.

Saturdays and Sundays are 16 hour days for me if everybody shows up for their lessons so I didn't get a chance to study the videos. I'm familiar with each of these pianists playing mechanisms but wanted to see the camera angles their shot from before commenting/critiquing.

Thanks Disciple,

I have had multiple sessions of deep tissue massage several times in the past 5 years but tenosynovitis continues in the center of my wrists. This has been going on for 30 years.

I am surprised you use 1/3, 1/4, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 on chromatic octaves and 1/4, 1/5 on diatonic octaves.

With octaves I thought 1/5 was standard on white keys and 1/4 on black keys. I'll have to try some of your different octave fingerings.

What's your opinion on playing 1/5 continuously on octaves?

I play a lot of Red Garland octaves with a perfect 5th inside (root 5th 8th). I finger them 1 2 5 but find them stressful at anything faster than ballad tempos.

Thanks
rtc

Alot of pianists with slightly larger hands find 1/3 helps alot with octaves, in addition to 1/4 and 1/5.
Disciple took the words right out of my teacher's mouth when he said "retain the same feeling when playing octaves as single notes".

Alot of people are intimidated by octaves, fast octaves, loud octaves, quiet octaves.... they think they have to tense up and hammer them out using the entire forearm. Nothing creates more tension than that approach.

Octaves should be played exactly like single notes. The only difference between an octave and a single note is that there are two single notes in the octave. The physical approach should not have to change.

Playing octaves continuously with 1/5 is fine as long as there are no black keys, legato is not needed, and you do not use the forearm-tension-hammer approach.
In classical repertoire octave passages that are completely detached and entirely on white keys are rare, but when they do occur, I use only 1/5.
Hope this helps.

Thank you Mr Kitty,

If I understand correctly, I should pull the fingers slightly towards me, from the large knuckle, when playing octaves, like with single notes? That does feel better than bouncing the forearm up and down and percussing the octaves.

For chromatic lines, do you play your black key octaves with 1/4 and whites keys with 1/5?

What fingering do you recommend for the Red Garland style right hand octaves (158), again in chromatic line type situations? I use 1/2/5 for all of the Red Garland octaves, it seems the most practical.

Thanks,
rtc

I understand the classical fingering of playing octaves on black keys with 1/4 and 1/5 on white keys.
That works well in stepwise situation such as a chromatic scale or scale with flats or sharps in it.

But when doing leaps with right hand octaves, for example outlining the notes of an Ab major triad arpeggio with right hand octaves, do you still play 1/4 when you leap to the black octaves and 1/5 when you leap to the white notes? Or is it recommended to be done all with 1/5?

On octaves, chords, and large intervals, where rapid repeated strokes of the hand are necessary, the articulation should come from the wrist, loosely hinged, a macro-version of the pyramidic hand shape, emulating the hinged fluttering action of the knuckle.

When I need to chord and octave very rapidly, I use a complex movement of the wrist and forearm, what I call a double strike with one subtle complete forearm stroke (down and up), striking twice with a push/pull action of the wrist/hand.

This may be difficult to envision. I'll try to describe it verbally.

Te forearm is lowered or dropped for the first stroke of the octave and the wrist continues down on the hand strike. As the forearm is raised to starting position for another strike, the wrist is raised up which drops the hand/fingers onto the keys for the second stroke while the forearm is repostioning itself for the third strike on only it's second stroke in the series.

In my youtubevideo, I do this at about 1:30 on the triplet chromatic octaves in the left hand from E up to c# and use the same technique on the descending aggregates in the right hand. It's a very subtle motion, two strikes for the price of one. With it, octaves and chords can be executed very rapidly. Far more rapidly then I did here.

Thanks again, Disciple

I understand your description. The octave technique you describe seems like the way I am used to playing them, I use a wrist hinge combined with a little gentle forearm lift and drop motion. The double stroke your describe for fast octaves is not yet in my repertoire.

I think Mr Kitty describes something different when he writes: "Octaves should be played exactly like single notes. The only difference between an octave and a single note is that there are two single notes in the octave. The physical approach should not have to change."

rtc

Yes and no! The approach of total relaxation remains the same. The hinge approach, the fluttering of wings to "tickle" te key tops also remains in effect BUT with one drastic difference. The mechanism to do this has changed location from the knuckle fluttering the finger, to the WRIST fluttering the hand.
Finger motion plays a very minor role compared to WRIST motion, even when playing semi-legato octaves with the 1/3, 1/4, 1/3, 1/3, 1/5, 1/3 fingering. There is SOME movement and futtering from the knuckle articulating the 3-4-5 fingers but with the pyramidic-index knuckle high arch flattened out considerably by the octave span, more articulation from the wrist strokes is necessary for ease and facility of execution, which takes the role of the knuckle when playing single notes and smaller intervals that don't much cnhange the shape of the rounded, pyramidic hand position.

Octaves are played with a far more static, fixed, forklike hand position, negating almost all individual vertical finger articulation.

The wrist must act as a major substitute for single note, raised knuckle/hinge articulation.

Subtle movement of the forearm, especially a forearm already positioned at about a 7 degree angle, starting from slightly below key-top level at the elbow assists and acentuates this desired wrist motion.

When playing very quick octaves, I literally THROW my hands at the keys from the wrist, raising my hands and fluttering them 2, 3, even 4 times!, from just one complete very subtle stroke of the forearm. Mastering then applying this multiple strike technique from one complete positive and negative forearm stroke, by utilizing fluttering from hinges below the elbow are the secret to playing extremely fast octaves and chords with a high degree of targeting accuracy.

This is difficult to pick up on my youtube video because of the stop-motion nature of Youtube videos. But it is there, though very subtle, especially when I'm playing the triplets at 0:35, and 0:45, and again at 1:26.

With this type of technique, even huge multiple aggregates of 13 to 16 notes (up to 8 notes per hand) are targeted very easily, because the targeting DEVICE (the WRIST and not the forearm) is smaller, closer to the keys, and more accurate.

Note at 0:22 of my video how easily the left hand grabs an 8 note aggregate, F-G-A-B-D#-F-G-A (a whole tone chord (the piece started out with the fan opening of alternating whole tone aggregates!)
against D-E-G-B-D-E in the right hand.

The left hand plays:

pinky: F-G
ring: A
middle: B
index: D#
thumb: F-G-A

F9 (b5) against E min. 7th or F13 (b5/b15)

The wrist is THROWING the fingers from a close proximity to the key tops making targeting of even complex configurations very easy within strings of aggragates and octaves.

Great post, Disciple.

I get what you are saying, but help me to understand about the function of the forearm, need it necessarily be stroking in order to flutter the wrist? It seems multiple wrist flutters could be done without forearm motion.

see next post

Disciple,

Ok, I am experimenting with the fluttering wrist for fast octaves. I am playing a triplet flutter per each forearm stroke. I am also trying sixteenths: 4 wrist flutters per forearm stroke. I notice the forearm down stroke produces a slight accent on the first wrist flutter. I also notice the flutters seem more difficult without the forearm motion and slower without it. Are my observations correct? Did Jerry Lee Lewis play his repeated octave this way too?

JLL imitator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwbTRLQ2Cs

rtc

Hard to see based on the video frame progressions but I suspect so going by what I can see by his wrist undulating, dropping and raising the fingers on each successive forearm motion.

Thanks, Disciple.