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#1132661 - 11/04/08 11:26 AM Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
DeepElem Offline
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 367
Loc: USA
I was listening to an old Pianojazz broadcast where Marian McPartland had Bill Evans on as her guest. At one point Bill Evans said he'd much rather practice 1 tune for 24 hours rather than practice 24 tunes for an hour each. The idea being by playing 1 tune a lot you get into all kinds of things you wouldn't normally just because you'd get bored really fast playing it the same way for all that time.

I'm just a beginner-intermediate player, but from my limited experience I think I'd agree with this. Obviously it's not the way to build a repetoire quickly, but it does seem to work to push your playing forward.

Thoughts ?

[EDIT] Note the use of "24 hours" is mis-leading. This is not implying 24 hours all in one day, it was just meant to be an arbitrary amount of time over an arbitrary amount of days. The concept is if you practice one tune a real lot as opposed to dividing that time among many tunes you'll learn more because you'll get past the point of playing a tune with techniques that you are most comfortable with and you'll start trying to do new things.
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#1132662 - 11/04/08 12:26 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Never practice more than a couple hours at a time. The worst thing a pianist can do is practice while in a state of fatigue.

John
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Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1132663 - 11/04/08 12:41 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
DeepElem Offline
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 367
Loc: USA
Good point Johnny-Boy. I wasn't being literal about playing for 24 hours straight though. I should have made that clear.
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If you knew what you were doing, you'd probably be bored.
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#1132664 - 11/04/08 01:13 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Yeah, I figured that. I just wanted to let young pianists (that may read this thread) know that a quality practice is much better than a quantity practice.

In my early years I fell into 6-8 hour practice sessions. Looking back, I realized every minute after two hours was not only a waste of time, but was also damaging.

Best, John
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#1132665 - 11/04/08 01:32 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by DeepElem:
I was listening to an old Pianojazz broadcast where Marian McPartland had Bill Evans on as her guest. At one point Bill Evans said he'd much rather practice 1 tune for 24 hours rather than practice 24 tunes for an hour each. The idea being by playing 1 tune a lot you get into all kinds of things you wouldn't normally just because you'd get bored really fast playing it the same way for all that time.

I'm just a beginner-intermediate player, but from my limited experience I think I'd agree with this. Obviously it's not the way to build a repetoire quickly, but it does seem to work to push your playing forward.

Thoughts ? [/b]
Consider a piece like an onion with various layers. The problem is that one layer is not accessible until the first has been deciphered and mastered. Usually what you practiced one day you learn the next day or more, because the learning process of gathered data occurs at night. That's exactly whi insomnia impairs learning and memory or why sometimes you wake up and something you couldn't understand the day before is now clear and easy. So I would guess that many layers would not be on surface the say day, within the 24 hours, but the next days, after all the post-practice brain work has occurred over one layer.

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#1132666 - 11/04/08 02:44 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
DeepElem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 367
Loc: USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
Consider a piece like an onion with various layers. The problem is that one layer is not accessible until the first has been deciphered and mastered. Usually what you practiced one day you learn the next day or more, because the learning process of gathered data occurs at night. That's exactly whi insomnia impairs learning and memory or why sometimes you wake up and something you couldn't understand the day before is now clear and easy. So I would guess that many layers would not be on surface the say day, within the 24 hours, but the next days, after all the post-practice brain work has occurred over one layer. [/b]
Yeah, I need to edit that original post. The 24 hours was not meant to imply that it was all in one day. It was more of a general statement that practicing 1 tune a lot will lead to more development than playing many tunes during that same amount of time.

I like the onion analogy though. The more you play a tune, the more things you learn and can build on.
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If you knew what you were doing, you'd probably be bored.
- Fresco's Law

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#1132667 - 11/04/08 03:34 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 3003
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
i prefer the cauliflower to the onion. each time you tackle something, you split the cauliflower in half. each half can be split again, leaving you the option of what route to take.
in other words, you don't particularly need to master one thing before you can learn another.
and each time you learn one thing, you've essentially uncovered more things to learn.
and finally, you can never end splitting problems in halves.

as for the original question, it is up to you. if your goal is to play weddings, receptions and such, then repertoire is key. everything from classical to rock and reggae is fair game.

if your goal is to play music and explore possibilities, then i would say you're better off learning a few tunes and applying all you can to them.

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#1132668 - 11/05/08 09:43 AM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 208
I agree that you shouldn't practice more than 2 or 3 hours a day but if it's just playing for fun without any serious aim, it's ok to go 4 or 5 hours or even more.

Regarding the original statement: I don't like to practice the same song for a long time because it starts to annoy me and if hear one say again and again, I don't want to play it anymore. But I agree that if you play one song for a long time, you notice a lot of new ideas in it or you try new things because it does become quite boring to play the same song in the same way again and again.
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#1132669 - 11/06/08 10:53 AM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
JDelmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 634
Heck, just practice!! One of my recent favorite quote I saw, may have been here--I don't remember, is:

The amateur practices until he can play something right; the professional practices until he can't play it wrong.
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#1132670 - 11/06/08 11:02 AM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 12346
Loc: Canada
How about an onionoflower? I like both those metaphors and I also like working on less things and longer on one thing. Each time you work on a different aspect (the cauliflower) and over days you also get deeper into each one (onion). What metaphor could we use for a third thing, the fact that the different parts of the cauliflower interrelate?

(Sudden visions are appearing of cauliflower and onion gently sauteed in butter.)

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#1132671 - 11/06/08 01:02 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Bachrocks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 94
Loc: New England
Onionoflower . . . I like that. \:\)
Thanks for the quotation from Bill Evans, who is one of my piano heroes. Now I don't feel so bad about not "getting" a new piece after only one or two or twelve one-hour practice sessions.

Since my gigs at the hospital are one hour long, what I try to do is play (not practice; play) through my best known repertoire for an hour without stopping, then go back and work on the bits that gave me trouble. Or if I don't have an entire hour to play, I'll either pull out those bits or a newer piece with challenging bits, and work on those. Even fifteen minutes on a tricky phrase makes a difference when it's time to play the piece from beginning to end.

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#1132672 - 11/06/08 01:15 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Good idea Bachrock! Work on the difficult parts. No sense in repeating too often the parts you already know.

Best, John
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#1132673 - 11/06/08 01:21 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Bachrocks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 94
Loc: New England
Yup, works for me! Plus, I agree with the posters who spoke of getting annoyed and bored with playing the same piece over and over ad nauseam. Even five-ten minutes of focused practice before I have to run out the door to my day job helps a lot more than mindlessly drifting through the piece from beginning to end, thinking "this time I'll play it perfectly." An hour later, nothing has been accomplished.

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#1132674 - 11/06/08 01:48 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Another good point: "focused practice"!
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Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1132675 - 11/07/08 03:37 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 290
Loc: Massachusetts
1 tune for 24 hours, or 24 tunes for 1 hour each?

I think it is best to study 12 tunes for 12 hours each \:\)

But I see where Bill Evans was coming from -- many of the late, great jazz musicians had a relatively small repertoire (although maybe they knew zillions of tunes, maybe they only chose to focus on a small portion of them).

But there were also many late, great jazz musicians that had huge repertoires too.

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#1132676 - 11/07/08 07:33 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Arabesque Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 553
Loc: Japan
Play 24 tunes for 24 hours X 24 is the answer to that. The ratio of 24 X 24 has been proven as a particularly effective learning formula for many subjects. At the rate of 1 hour per day that'd be a total of 576 hours for a 24 song repertoire. At 6 days a week it will take you 1 year 8.5 months. Those 24 songs at an average of 5 minutes each would give you 2 hours in a live solo gig or a double CD.

Alternatively, the intensive practice of 7 hours a day 6 days a week for 24 songs @ 24 hours each would require 4.5 months of your life.

This would be for your regular light standards repertoire and not classical or extended jazz solos.
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#1132677 - 11/07/08 07:39 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
If you memorize two songs a week for a year, you'll have a 104 song repertoire in one year. Doesn’t sound too difficult.

Of course, you’ll have to methodically review these pieces on a regular basis.

John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1132678 - 11/09/08 06:02 AM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
pianobroker Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
If you are playing jazz,I would think that learning many tunes is beneficial in that no two tunes are the same and one would approach them differently.One would approach Body and Soul totally different than A Train. I'm not saying blow thru the entire fakebook in a week but being able to construct an arrangement on the spot is key. If you practice and play your well thought out arrangement note for note everytime you're not playing jazz. Quantity is key though one should assimulate quality via true improvisation which becomes secound nature dependent on how vast your vocabulary is. Play a tune for a half an hour straight making a conscious effort of not repeating anything.Harder than you think. \:\)
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#1132679 - 11/09/08 10:28 AM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
monkmonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Osaka, Japan
The thing that keeps me inspired to learn?
Avoiding arbitrary choices.
Make choices based on your feeling and love for music, that is how you can decide which is the best path for you.

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#1132680 - 11/14/08 05:05 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
I heard that same broadcast and that is what I will do until the song becomes mine. I will spend one hour sometimes two on one piece and will do that for a week or two on just the single tune. I will play with midi files, jam cds, records or cds of the song I want to learn. I will use the music and PLAY WITH OUT THE MUSIC. I will sing the melody and clap the rhythm out whatever it takes to really have an understanding and control of the tune. It is true that after the first 20 minutes you will run out of ideas but keep pushing after awhile your thought process starts to change and new ideas will come.
DPVJAZZ

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#1132681 - 11/14/08 05:35 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by dpvjazz:
I heard that same broadcast and that is what I will do until the song becomes mine. I will spend one hour sometimes two on one piece and will do that for a week or two on just the single tune. I will play with midi files, jam cds, records or cds of the song I want to learn. I will use the music and PLAY WITH OUT THE MUSIC. I will sing the melody and clap the rhythm out whatever it takes to really have an understanding and control of the tune. It is true that after the first 20 minutes you will run out of ideas but keep pushing after awhile your thought process starts to change and new ideas will come.
DPVJAZZ [/b]
My intention isn’t to discourage you for sure. But..there’s such a thing as musicianship.

You should define your goals. Do you want to be like a trained dog and be able to perform a couple pieces satisfactory – or do you want to become a real musician and a real pianist.

What is your reasoning for perfecting one piece? Is it to impress listeners? It will be short-lived when they request encores.

Bottom-line; until you reach a certain level of technique, you won't perfect any one particular piece of music. It can't be achieved by staying with one piece. A large variety of music is needed to achieve a respectable level of performance.

Your technique will be developed through years of practice, and mountains of music, not by mind-numbing repetition of a single piece.

Don’t be in a hurry to dazzle people. Rather set-up long term goals to become a fine pianist and a fine musician. Your listeners will be happier, and more important, you’ll enjoy music so much more.

Again, don’t be discouraged. Rather take the bull by the horns and set-up an affective practice routine.

Good-luck, John
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#1132682 - 11/15/08 01:35 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
Johnny-BOY You should define your goals. Do you want to be like a trained dog and be able to perform a couple pieces satisfactory – or do you want to become a real musician and a real pianist.

I have been playing piano for 30 years, professionally for over 25 years, and run my own restaurant business. I give 6 to 7 jazz concerts a year with the best Phoenix has to offer for the last 10 years plus other gigs through out the year. I play solo piano once a week at my restaurant for the last 3 years and is one of the busiest days of the week plus 2 to 3 times a month at the church I attend. I get calls to play my music around town plus I get paid for what I ask for, and every establishment that I've played for has called me back for more gigs. If I played liked a trained dog I do not think I could have achieved this and I would think this describes what a real musician and a real pianist is.

JOHNNY-BOY What is your reasoning for perfecting one piece? Is it to impress listeners? It will be short-lived when they request encores.

Some tunes I just love and when I practice this way I enjoy the result I get. I believe when I first heard Love Supreme by John Coltrane it took a while to really hear what was going on but I got it and sometimes playing all the possible changes and then some might be a little a challenge for those who are looking for a hook or something familiar to attract the listener. I do encores all the time. Sometimes when playing in a group we might play ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE or ALL BLUES for over 20 minutes but sometimes that is what it takes say what you have to say.

JOHNNY-BOY Bottom-line; until you reach a certain level of technique, you won't perfect any one particular piece of music. It can't be achieved by staying with one piece. A large variety of music is needed to achieve a respectable level of performance.

I made it a point to always have teachers both classical and jazz that not only teach well but have careers in music. When I play solo piano the most common comment is what a nice sound or touch. I play behind a wall and the music can be heard through out the restaurant and customers always come by and say I thought it was a record or radio playing. I KNOW OVER 300 PLUS TUNES. Been working on technique for over 30 years and I can play most styles of music.

JOHNNY-BOY Your technique will be developed through years of practice, and mountains of music, not by mind-numbing repetition of a single piece.

It can only be mind-numbing if you’re not using your mind.


Don’t be in a hurry to dazzle people. Rather set-up long term goals to become a fine pianist and a fine musician. Your listeners will be happier, and more important, you’ll enjoy music so much more.

I have accomplish most the goals I set for my self when I was 20 and starting out. I am 55 now playing what I want with who I want and having the time of my life. If I want to dazzle I can but I personally prefer a group sound you know where everyone listens to each other and works off that.
DPVJAZZ

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#1132683 - 11/15/08 02:43 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Sorry DPV. I only meant to give you a possible new direction. I guess this statement from the original poster through me off (thought it was you); "I'm just a beginner-intermediate player"

Best, John
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Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1132684 - 11/15/08 03:34 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
I figure as much since I was not really clear on my first post. Any way I agree with what you said because the first 10 years I did pretty much what you stated and it is great advice for the beginner. Your music always soundS good and I always enjoy when you share with us. If you ever come to Phoenix please drop by and maybe we can make some music together.
DPVJAZZ

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#1132685 - 11/15/08 03:53 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Will do Dpv.

Best, John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1132686 - 11/15/08 06:25 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
DeepElem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 367
Loc: USA
Johnny-Boy, I know what you're saying. Being early on in my piano journey I certainly do need to get a lot of different tunes under my belt and get the different techniques each of them may bring. But I also think there is a lot of value, even for someone of my level, to really working one tune also.

I wasn't saying the goal of playing one tune a lot was to perfect it. I was saying that if I play it a lot and try to find new things to do, a new bass line, a new chord sub, a different voicing, whatever, it was really helpful because it made me think and it made me work on new things just so I didn't play it the same way all the time.

dpvjazz, I like what you said about "keep pushing and new ideas will eventually come". I really need to remember that. Too often I can't see another way of playing something, or just get in a rut, and do nothing to get out of it. I need to keep pushing.
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If you knew what you were doing, you'd probably be bored.
- Fresco's Law

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#1132687 - 11/17/08 09:10 PM Re: Practice 1 tune for 24 hours or 24 tunes 1 hour each ?
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7153
Loc: So. California
I would spend months on a single tune, learning all the intricacies of it and then move on to another tune with completely different characteristics.

Then I realize that I can apply those same things I learned to any tune and I don't have to spend more than a few hours on a new one.

So in a way it's a combination. I have "learning" tunes for developing some skill, like unique voicings or unusual keys, or uptempo, which I will practice constantly, then the rest of the time, I would scan the Realbooks for tunes where I can easily apply what I know.

In general, I think I could not have done it any other way than the Bill Evans way. Certainly the fast way of grasping the big picture IMHO. Now I have a very deep understanding of some really complex tunes and makes tunes like A-Train seem like a piece of cake.
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