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#1132783 - 12/22/06 01:24 AM ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
There are several other longer threads discussing swing eighths on the other forum:
http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...&bid=&room_id=1

Posted by Jazzwee:

"If the eighth note on the On beat is very long and the eighth note on the offbeat is very short, then you will have an extreme swing style like Wynton Kelly.

Or you can make your eighth notes more evenly sized instead of the heavy triplet feel, then accent the offbeat. The style will be more along the lines of Herbie Hancock.

Or you can play the lines marcato (detached) -- in other words non-legato, add the accents on the offbeat and you will sound like Chick Corea."
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132784 - 12/22/06 01:26 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
I would like an analysis of subtle differences of the swing eighths, and their relation to the beat, of the players Bud Powell, Sonny Clark, Wynton Kelly, Red Garland and Horace Silver.

I would also like to discuss the swing eighths of Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock and Keith Jarrett.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132785 - 12/22/06 03:09 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
EXAMPLES

Wynton Kelly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBwrv6RtvtA

Bill Evans playing "Nardis" (swinging eighths)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHstJt9jNk

Bill Evans playing "Gloria's Step" (more even eighths)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C84KmJwtPeI&search=bill%20evans

Keith Jarrett playing "Autumn Leaves"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Herbie Hancock "So What"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIVh2o9yK...20Sweden%20Jazz

Brad Mehldau "I'll Be Seeing You"
http://www.bradmehldau.com/media/index.html
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132786 - 12/22/06 05:47 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
wolfindmist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: In a state full of Volcanoes
Ooooooh!
Thank you for sharing these links...
I'm certainly going to get over to youtube and check them out. Interesting thread BTW.
Wolf

_________________________
I have my own weapon of mass destruction in the form of a "teenage" German Shepherd. Anything she spies and can get ahold of is fair game.

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#1132787 - 12/22/06 06:54 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
wolfindmist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: In a state full of Volcanoes
I am REALLY ENJOYING the Keith Jarrett Autumn Leaves Video...
Keith Jarrett playing "Autumn Leaves"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Interesting block chord voicings going on... and then he starts going to town with the right hand... crazy rhythm.

Thanks for sharing the above links....
_________________________
I have my own weapon of mass destruction in the form of a "teenage" German Shepherd. Anything she spies and can get ahold of is fair game.

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#1132788 - 12/22/06 06:07 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by wolfindmist:
I am REALLY ENJOYING the Keith Jarrett Autumn Leaves Video...
Keith Jarrett playing "Autumn Leaves"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io1o1Hwpo8Y

Interesting block chord voicings going on... and then he starts going to town with the right hand... crazy rhythm.

Thanks for sharing the above links.... [/b]
Here's an approach to "swinging" that relies more on phrasing, consecutive note individualized dynamics and duration, rather than "swing" to generate an incredible amount of propulsion tha's perceived as intense "swing". No jazz improvising pianist ever exerted as much dynamic and envelope control over the individual notes of his stretches at these type of tempos, each note having it's own atypical ADSR (attack envelope) and dynamic profile. More importantly than that, the lines themselves are incredibly crafted:

http://www.amazon.com/Lennie-Tristano-Ne...ie=UTF8&s=music

track 1 and 4

Lennie also exerted this control over his "locked hands" style:

http://www.amazon.com/Lennie-Tristano-Ne...ie=UTF8&s=music

Track 13 (based on Melancholy Baby)

Lennie executed "chord" harmonically contrapuntal aggregates of up to 15 notes (thumbs and pinkies on multiple notes) with perfect voice leading as easily as most pianists control 4 and 6 component motion.

I transposed this if anybody's interested.
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132789 - 12/22/06 07:20 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Thanks for the great clips, virtuosic1.

Tristano was the master with his duration and dynamics of each note.

Perhaps give us your thoughts on the way Kelly, Garland, Evans, Hancok and Jarrett play their notes.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132790 - 12/22/06 10:54 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
wolfindmist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: In a state full of Volcanoes
Tristano really does some interesting things on these clips you shared. Percussive block chords with dissonances and various modulations and inversions. At first taste I found it almost startleing; but as I got into the pieces I sensed how all the things he was doing fit into the whole picture. To be honest; I haven't really heard much of this kind of playing before.
It is something new I will try to explore and play around with. Thanks for sharing it.

Does youtube have any videos of this piano artist?
_________________________
I have my own weapon of mass destruction in the form of a "teenage" German Shepherd. Anything she spies and can get ahold of is fair game.

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#1132791 - 12/25/06 05:10 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
posted by "savage" on the other forum:

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...d&id=31805&bid=

"When it comes to swing feel, i think Kenny Kirkland was a hell of a player. In fact, i wrote an article a few years back where i analyzed his lines in digital spectrograms. That way i could see the exact timing and amplitude of every note in his lines. This is what he does most of the time:

He accents all the offbeats heavily unless there are melodic leaps in the line, in which case he accents the high notes.

When the offbeats are accented, he plays straight eights. In fact, he even makes the offbeat notes longer than the downbeat notes sometimes. He also places his downbeats behind the drummers downbeats, so if the drummer is playing with a triplet feel the upbeats are syncronized.

When the downbeats are accented however, the swing ratio is very high. In slower tempos the upbeats are often shorter than sixteenth notes. The downbeats are syncronized with the drummers´.

Kenny Kirkland was heavily influenced by Herbie Hancock, and though i haven´t studied Herbie´s phrasing in spectrograms i can hear these tendencies in his playing as well."

Savage
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132792 - 12/25/06 06:34 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
gregjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 316
Loc: CA
This is a great thread!

I love the idea of studying other people's styles. It's not that you're going to be an imitator, but certain things about people's styles will stick to you on your journey: certain things that will accentuate aspects of your own style.
_________________________
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
http://www.orangetreesamples.com

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#1132793 - 12/25/06 06:55 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
From yet another article on swing eighths:

"Years ago an article described how someone in the quest for the Grail had used a computer to analyze the swing eighth notes of a Bill Evans piano solo. Would technology reveal the mystic equation calculating where—between even eighths and triplet-eighths—true swing eighths fall? Such a definable proportion could then be easily passed from one generation to another. But the study revealed a challenging truth: no two swing eighths in Evans’ solo fell the same distance apart. He followed no formula, and none could be passed on to the reader as the prize so long sought."

http://www.garciamusic.com/educator/articles/swing.feel.html
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132794 - 12/25/06 11:13 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by wolfindmist:
Tristano really does some interesting things on these clips you shared. Percussive block chords with dissonances and various modulations and inversions. At first taste I found it almost startleing; but as I got into the pieces I sensed how all the things he was doing fit into the whole picture. To be honest; I haven't really heard much of this kind of playing before.
It is something new I will try to explore and play around with. Thanks for sharing it.

Does youtube have any videos of this piano artist? [/b]
There's a few videos of Lennie T on Youtube.com now! Although I studied with Lennie for many years, I don't have any videos. Lennie didn't even allow cassette recordings to be made at his casual monthly get togethers with students at his home. He would have absolutely hated a video camera, if any of his students and peers brought one (ca. 1963 to 1973). Lennie very rarely played at these recitals.

In order to even begin to properly grasp what Lennie is doing in that "blocked chord" piece, which is based on Melancholy Baby, you must hear the entire improvisation, not just a 1 minute snippet from it. When you do, you're struck by a sense of incredible structure of the totality, which is entirely spun from that initial 4-note cell that is based on a harmonic, fugal mirror of the first four notes of the Melacholy Baby melody, much in the same way of the most highly structured "Classical Compositions" of the 1st part of the 20th century.

What becomes clear as you listen, and even more clear when you play it, that these "blocked chords" incorporate individual note voice leading of a far higher magnitude than any other jazz pianists's improvisations encountered. Lennie's music has far, far more in common with Ives (especially "Central Park in the Dark", Bartok (especially "Music for Percussion, Strings and Celeste", and Honegger (especially the "Christmas Cantata"?), all harmonically contrapuntal tour-de-forces, than Parker, Powell, Hines, and his jazz peers.
Jazz influenced by Hines, Lennie's phrasing, his language and dynamics are jazz, but his constructive materials, his manipulation of highly complex numbers of gravitationally moving separate voices that form aggregates perceived as "block chords" are vastly different than his jazz peers. Solal and Tatum are the closest ones in this controlled, contrapuntally harmonic style, but Lennie's playing was uniquely more instant composition than improvisation!

You're right. In all of Lennie's playing, everything played somehow fits into the big picture, from the smallest cells, to the longest 200+ note stretches. It's not just harmonic layering because he knows these incredible chords and fancy open voicings incorporating up to 15 notes at the same time. Each and every component leads somewhere. Lennie was in complete control of each and every note he played, from where it came, where it was going, and it's relationship to the entire sonic event.

Sadly, critics and other misicians of his day interpreted this as "too cerebral". It was only too cerebral for others trying to grasp something, anything, to copy Lennie, and couldn't. To Lennie, his playing was anything but cerebral, anything besides just a study in complexity. Lennie brought himself to the piano. He heard this way, what was amazing micro and macro-structure complexity under later analysis. Innately, it was part of him and the way music generated itself inside. Lennie was hearing at the piano, not playing musical chess thinking 100 moves in advance, although the perfection perceived in the music's analysis gives one that impression, as though it was a carefully constructed perfect labyrinth.

This is why his style and music fell by the wayside as the years passed. It's just so unlike the music of his contemporaries and followers on all but a few levels. It was difficult to learn and as the decades passed the generations of quick-fixes embraced more readily understandable jazz piano that could be emulated to a fairly simple degree.
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132795 - 12/27/06 07:38 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
While on the subject of swing eights, here's an answer that I PM'ed to an excellent question from RinTin, that might be of value for inclusion in this thread:

Right off the bat, there is no set formula of how to group swing eights. Jazz is FEELING. Here's the best definition of jazz or swing that I can muster. Jazz is what a pool player imparts on a cue ball, the "English", topspin, backspin, right side, left side, masse, jump shot, etc. to move it (Propulse it) around the table as needed for each successive "shot" (note/phrase). It's the English, or accent/dynamic/duration/placement imparted on one note in a succession of notes that comprises a stretch. NOBODY runs out a table the same way, pool player to pool player. Maybe one guy "feels" the five ball in the side FIRST, and then draws back the cue to pocket the 10 ball in the corner, and the other guy pockets the ten first, and rolls the cue 2 cushions, then pockets the five in the side SECOND. Same result, two different spins. What dictates the spin is what a person brings to the keyboard. NOBODY swings the same way, unless of course we're deliberately trying to emulate someone else's sound (I can do a mean Tristano!)

Intersting side note:

About 3 years after Lennie died, I visited Connie Crothers (lived with Lennie). We were pooling some knowledge and I launched into that chordal piece that I posted, note for note with Lennie's exact phrasing and individual note dynamics WITHIN the aggregates. Connie didn't play the piece (very difficult, alot more than it even sounds for most pianists). Carol Tristano was dozing upstairs in her bedroom (Lennie's daughter) and she came down the stairs when she heard that piece that her father played. It SCARED her. She said she had heard others trying to play it, but never correctly, and she thought she was either dreaming, or half expected to see her father sitting at the piano!

Anyway, trying to say that there's a set formula for swinging, is like trying to say that there's a set formula for the order of notes that a jazz musician SHOULD play. In jazz, the notes are actually secondary to the spins imparted to them and the way the notes succeed one another. Interestingly, Lennie TALKED jazz. He talked in a breathy voice. His sentences in phrases. He talked jazz, lived jazz, exuded the spin of jazz. ANY note or group of notes should be able to take on any value dependent on the spin imparted by the artist. It's not the NOTES that separate one artist from another distinctly. It's the spin.
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132796 - 12/27/06 04:11 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Thanks virtuosic1,

That's a good analogy and interesting story. I have an LP by Cruthers with All The Things You Are as the opening track. It's interesting the way she takes her lines outside.

What are your thoughts on subtley accenting the upbeats in eighth note lines (but of course not all the same way). I think I perceive it happening to some degree more often than not when I listen to Hancock, Jarrett, Corea, playing their eighth note lines. And it seems quite obvious with the "hard bop" players like Horace Silver, Sonny Clark and Bobby Timmons.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132797 - 12/27/06 04:17 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
From an ARTICLE in:

New Scientist vol 168 issue 2270 - 23 December 2000, page 48

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. But what is swing?

WHEN the musical West Side Story opened in London in 1958 the producers had a real problem. They didn't know who should occupy the drum stool. Leonard Bernstein's score was hard. And it was jazzy. At the time most of Britain's jazz drummers wouldn't do because they simply couldn't read music well enough. The classical percussionists, though flawless readers, also had an irredeemable failing. These "straight" musicians, as the jazz world calls them, just couldn't swing.
Swing is at the heart of jazz. It's what makes the difference between music you can't resist tapping your feet to and a tune that leaves you unmoved. Only now are scientists beginning to unravel the subtle secrets of swing. Even today, many drum instruction manuals lay down a rigid formula for swing, based on alternately lengthening and shortening certain notes according to a strict ratio, says Anders Friberg, a physicist at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, who's also a pianist. But these rules are misleading. "If you took them literally you would never learn to swing," says Friberg.
The fundamental rhythmic unit in jazz is the quarter note. When you tap your feet to the music you are marking out quarter notes-or crotchets as they are called in Britain. Superimposed on this basic beat are melodies. Often melody lines consist of eighth notes, which last half as long on average as a quarter note.
But no one plays music exactly as it is written, just as no two people would read a passage from a book the same way. If you want to hear music played exactly as written there are thousands of Midi files on the Net which are direct translations of sheet music. And very tedious they are too-convincing proof that computers don't have a soul. Real musicians shorten one note, lengthen another, delay a third and accent notes. It is all part of creating an individual style.
In jazz this interpretation is taken to extremes-and the way jazz musicians play their eighth notes is one of the keys to swing. Faced with a row of eighth notes on a sheet of music a straight musician plays a series of more or less equal notes. A jazz musician plays the eighth notes alternately long and short. The long note coincides with the basic beat, the note clipped short is off the beat. There is a similar but less pronounced tendency to play notes long and short in folk and baroque music as well as in popular music.
Many drum instruction books say that the long eighth note should be twice as long as the short one. But you simply can't lay down a rigid formula for swing, says Friberg. It all depends on the tempo of the piece you are playing. Although professional musicians are largely aware of these complexities-or can at least feel how to swing-inexperienced musicians may not be so lucky. Friberg points out that many contemporary rock drummers may pick up bad habits because they practise keeping time by playing with drum machines, which may rely on the simplistic swing formula.
Friberg measured the ratio between the long and short notes, the swing ratio, of four drummers on a series of commercial recordings. They included some of the best drummers in jazz, such as Tony Williams who played with Miles Davis on the My Funny Valentine album, Jack DeJohnette, part of Keith Jarrett's trio and Jeff Watts, who played with Wynton Marsalis.
Friberg used a frequency analysis program to pick out the distinctive audio signal of the drummer's ride cymbal from a series of 10-second samples from the records. In modern jazz, drummers normally play a pattern of quarter notes and eighth notes on this cymbal with their right hand. He found the drummers varied their swing ratio according to the tempo of the piece. At slow tempos the long eighth notes were played extremely long and the short notes clipped so short that they were virtually sixteenth notes. But at faster tempos the eighth notes were practically even. The received wisdom of a 2 to 1 swing ratio was only true at a medium-fast tempo of about 200 quarter-note beats per minute. "The swing ratio has a more or less linear relationship with tempo," says Friberg.
Although this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo held true for every drummer, there were some notable stylistic differences. "Tony Williams, for example, has the longest swing ratios," says Friberg. This is partly his style. But jazz is also a cooperative style of music-you have to fit in with those around you. "It's partly a matter of who he is playing with," says Friberg.
Friberg backed up his findings by creating a computer-generated version of a jazz trio playing the Yardbird Suite, a theme written by Charlie Parker. He then played the piece back to a panel of 34 people at different tempos and asked them to adjust the swing ratio. He found that the listeners also preferred larger swing ratios at slow tempos while at fast tempos the ratio was closer to 1.
The results are impressively consistent-and they also give a clue to the split-second accuracy that jazz musicians have to achieve if they are going to keep the listeners tapping their feet. At a relatively slow tempo of 120 beats per minute most listeners prefer a swing ratio somewhere between 2.3 and 2.6.
Part of the reason for this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo, says Friberg, may be that there is a limit to how fast musicians can play a note-and how easily listeners can distinguish individual notes. At medium tempos and above, the duration of the short eighth notes remained more or less constant at slightly under one-tenth of a second. The shortest melody notes in jazz have a similar minimum duration. Friberg thinks this should set a maximum practical tempo for jazz of around 320 beats per minute, and very few jazz recordings approach this speed.
He points out that there's a limit to the speed listeners can process notes. When the tenor saxophonist John Coltrane made his first solo recordings in the late 1950s jazz critics began referring to his fast succession of notes as "sheets of sound". "This is what you hear if you don't hear the individual notes," says Friberg.
Just as jazz musicians have a standard repertoire of tunes, so there is a similar repertoire of jokes. One has a member of the audience asking: "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it.
In his latest research, Friberg went back to the same recordings and looked at the timing of soloists, such as Miles Davis, to see if they used the same swing ratios as the drummers. He found that the soloists' swing ratios also dropped as the tempo increased. More surprising was the fact that the drummer always played larger swing ratios than the soloist they were playing with. Even at slow tempos soloists rarely had swing ratios greater than 2 to 1.
The difference helps to explain why a soloist can seem to be so laid back on a particularly toe-tapping number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, the soloist hangs back slightly. "The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo," says Friberg.
This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
Members of the audience synchronise with the band by tapping their feet to the basic beat. But musicians have a more subtle strategy. "If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful," says Friberg. "The funny thing," he adds, "is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronise on the short eighth note."
He says that this off-the-beat synchronisation of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronise their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronised, says Friberg, "you often don't realise the soloist is lagging".


How the written and played music differ

So how did the producers of West Side Story resolve their drumming dilemma? Even after 42 years musicians still tell the story. At the time Britain's best jazz drummer was Phil Seaman, who was a good reader. But he had a problem. Or to be precise, two problems. One was alcohol and the other heroin. But after some dithering, the producers gave him the job. All went well until one matinee, when the regular conductor took the day off.
Seaman had a habit, half-affected, half-genuine, of appearing to doze when he wasn't playing-and during one pause in the music, his head began to nod. Fearing that he had dropped off and wary of his reputation, the conductor gestured frantically to the bass player to wake the dozing drummer. The bass player reached across and prodded Seaman with his bow. Startled, Seaman stood up and fell backwards over his drum stool, straight into the Chinese gong-which reverberated around the theatre and stopped the show.
Seaman stood up, cleared his throat, and announced: "Ladies and gentlemen, dinner is served." The management promptly sacked him.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132798 - 12/27/06 04:18 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
From yet another article on swing eighths:

"Years ago an article described how someone in the quest for the Grail had used a computer to analyze the swing eighth notes of a Bill Evans piano solo. Would technology reveal the mystic equation calculating where—between even eighths and triplet-eighths—true swing eighths fall? Such a definable proportion could then be easily passed from one generation to another. But the study revealed a challenging truth: no two swing eighths in Evans’ solo fell the same distance apart. He followed no formula, and none could be passed on to the reader as the prize so long sought."

http://www.garciamusic.com/educator/articles/swing.feel.html
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132799 - 12/27/06 04:20 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Posted by "savage" -- 12/25/2006, 05:54:54 -- #31955

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...&bid=&room_id=1

"When it comes to swing feel, i think Kenny Kirkland was a hell of a player. In fact, i wrote an article a few years back where i analyzed his lines in digital spectrograms. That way i could see the exact timing and amplitude of every note in his lines. This is what he does most of the time:

He accents all the offbeats heavily unless there are melodic leaps in the line, in which case he accents the high notes.

When the offbeats are accented, he plays straight eights. In fact, he even makes the offbeat notes longer than the downbeat notes sometimes. He also places his downbeats behind the drummers downbeats, so if the drummer is playing with a triplet feel the upbeats are syncronized.

When the downbeats are accented however, the swing ratio is very high. In slower tempos the upbeats are often shorter than sixteenth notes. The downbeats are syncronized with the drummers´.

Kenny Kirkland was heavily influenced by Herbie Hancock, and though i haven´t studied Herbie´s phrasing in spectrograms i can hear these tendencies in his playing as well."

Savage

----------------

Follow up:

Posted by "savage" -- 12/27/2006, 04:29:30 -- #32002
regarding your questions:

Upbeats shorter than sixteenth notes while accenting downbeats happens when the tempo is below 120 bpm.

The reason for the upbeats being longer than the downbeats sometimes while accenting upbeats is that he plays his downbeats so far behind the drummers´ but still synchronizes with the drums on the upbeats. Usually this occurs at tempos over 200 bpm. "

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...&bid=&room_id=1
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132800 - 12/27/06 05:52 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by rintincop:
Posted by "savage" -- 12/25/2006, 05:54:54 -- #31955

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...&bid=&room_id=1

"When it comes to swing feel, i think Kenny Kirkland was a hell of a player. In fact, i wrote an article a few years back where i analyzed his lines in digital spectrograms. That way i could see the exact timing and amplitude of every note in his lines. This is what he does most of the time:

He accents all the offbeats heavily unless there are melodic leaps in the line, in which case he accents the high notes.

When the offbeats are accented, he plays straight eights. In fact, he even makes the offbeat notes longer than the downbeat notes sometimes. He also places his downbeats behind the drummers downbeats, so if the drummer is playing with a triplet feel the upbeats are syncronized.

When the downbeats are accented however, the swing ratio is very high. In slower tempos the upbeats are often shorter than sixteenth notes. The downbeats are syncronized with the drummers´.

Kenny Kirkland was heavily influenced by Herbie Hancock, and though i haven´t studied Herbie´s phrasing in spectrograms i can hear these tendencies in his playing as well."

Savage

----------------

Follow up:

Posted by "savage" -- 12/27/2006, 04:29:30 -- #32002
regarding your questions:

Upbeats shorter than sixteenth notes while accenting downbeats happens when the tempo is below 120 bpm.

The reason for the upbeats being longer than the downbeats sometimes while accenting upbeats is that he plays his downbeats so far behind the drummers´ but still synchronizes with the drums on the upbeats. Usually this occurs at tempos over 200 bpm. "

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/sc...&bid=&room_id=1 [/b]
In all of these instances, "swing" is only being identified then codified from a placement/duration standpoint. That's one way to create "swing", by emulating the very familiar high hat, pushed swing eights (played approximately like an eight note triplet with the first two eights tied) which is that you would expect to hear being played on a high hat by a jazz drummer.

Swing is movement. This movement, or jump/bounce of durationally dissimilar eights generates propulsion. But propulsion can be created by methods completely extraneous to swing. By DYNAMICS. If each individual note, even of equal duration, can be attacked differently, to create a labyrinth of dissimalar consecutive phrases, a great deal of propulsion, by each note being imparted its own spin can be created, much like billiard balls all spinning in place, yet at different rates on a pool table.

Listen very carefully to the dynamic profile of each individual note and the note envelope's relationship to the beat in these lines for an example of this dynamic spin:

http://www.amazon.com/Lennie-Tristano-Ne...ie=UTF8&s=music

Track 1 and 4

Lennie was called "cold" and "cerebral" by critics due to his modest use of rhythmic swing, associated with most jazz pianists. Lennie didn't have to impart swing eights to generate an incredible amount of momentum. He created it with inter-note dynamics, phrases within phrases within phrases that seemed to eventually find resolution of tension somewhere further along the track.
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132801 - 12/28/06 12:10 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Lennie sure sounds ahead of his time. I hear some intense and frequent accents in his upbeats, leaps and target notes. He's really quite agressive in his creations. It would be interesting for me to hear him play with some modern virtuoso fusion players like Michael Brecker, Mike Stern, Dennis Chambers or Dave Weckl.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1132802 - 12/30/06 12:52 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
I always enjoyed Phineas Newborn playing the piano and I feel that he is one of the few that truly swings with both hands at up tempos. All pianists wanting to see and hear a master of swing should check him out. DPVJAZZ

One of the most technically skilled and brilliant pianists in jazz during his prime, Phineas Newborn remains a bit of a mystery. Plagued by mental and physical problems of unknown origin, Newborn faded from the scene in the mid-1960s, only to re-emerge at irregular intervals throughout his life. Newborn could be compared to Oscar Peterson in that his bop-based style was largely unclassifiable, his technique was phenomenal, and he was very capable of enthralling an audience playing a full song with just his left hand.
Leonard Feather once said of him "In his prime, he was one of the three greatest jazz pianists of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzX2S3rfJ_Q
http://www.jazzdisco.org/newborn/dis/c/

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#1132803 - 12/30/06 05:26 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by dpvjazz:
Plagued by mental and physical problems of unknown origin, [/b]
I won't name names, but in the case of jazz geniuses, this is more the rule rather than the exception! \:D

On a more serious note, anyone here ever see this blind and autistic jazz pianist?:

http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/savant/deblois.cfm

I saw a TV show where he was sitting beside another pianist at a second piano, who would play improvised passages with rather complex chord voicings. He would listen, then play it back with absolute perfection at the exact tempo, including all of the nuances, but he's unable to dress himself!
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132804 - 01/03/07 11:38 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
[QUOTE] virtuosic1
On a more serious note, anyone here ever sees this blind and autistic jazz pianist

Yeah he made the rounds on TV before and he is one of many. Our drummer has exhibited the same behavior after consuming many beers while playing and we call him an idiot savant.
http://www.autism.org/savant.html
http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/savant/faq.cfm
http://www.mysteries-megasite.com/main/bigsearch/savants.html


[QUOTE] virtuosic1
I won't name names, but in the case of jazz geniuses, this is more the rule rather than the exception!

I have noticed that also and of why do suppose that is. I mean watching Monk turn in a circle in the middle of a performance can be unsettling or Keith Jarrett going off on the audiences and let’s not get started on Bud Powell. You make and interesting point. DPVJAZZ

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#1132805 - 01/03/07 06:42 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
virtuosic1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 523
Loc: NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by dpvjazz:
I mean watching Monk turn in a circle in the middle of a performance can be unsettling or Keith Jarrett going off on the audiences and let’s not get started on Bud Powell. You make and interesting point. DPVJAZZ [/QB]
The three of them were lightweights in the eccentric olympics, compared to Bird! \:D
_________________________
My version of Lennie Tristano's "Scene and Variation":

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

A downloadable file with examples of my jazz improvising (Accompaniament on Fender Rhodes, lead lines on Acoustic piano):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

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#1132806 - 01/06/07 02:51 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
I thought a few links to add to this discussion for extra reading and research to help those that want to know more about how the jazz greats swing and the differences between their playing styles. The link from another site discussing this topic is also added. Everyone has their favorites and there is much to listen to and learn from. DPVJAZZ

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/021325/p/1.html
http://www.keynotesmagazine.com/article.php?uid=56
http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/ja/jazz.htm
http://www.tlavitz.net/200010keyboard.html
http://www.berklee.edu/bt/171/lesson.html?action=print
http://www.themeister.co.uk/dixie/lesson11.htm
http://www.alisdair.com/pdf/articles/It%20Dont%20Mean%20A%20Things.pdf
http://tags.lyricsfreak.com/Jazz/
http://www.iaje.org/pastrecipients.asp
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-1946-1949-Roost-Swing-Masters/dp/B00004VW9G

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#1132807 - 01/07/07 09:51 AM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
Horace Silver certainly did not have the chops of some of the other jazz pianist listed here but as for discussing swing and groups that swing you defiantly want to include Horace and Art Blakely and Elvin Jones. Horace made the most of what he had and was one of the most successful and well liked jazz pianists from the bop era. I met Blue Mitchell in the late 70’s in Phoenix with Pete Magadini the drummer. Prince Shell was playing piano and I ended up hanging with Prince and learning about jazz. Anyway here are some videos to make the point but there are so many more cuts still not on videos that need to be heard so do some research of the names mention and their body of works. Drummers had a big impact on the music so just don’t look at the pianists same to be said of the bass players. Check it all out. DPVJAZZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMKtGY3M-OM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uf6OJb3UKI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-AQpTtjDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Evp6KiGEw

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#1132808 - 01/08/07 03:06 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az

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#1132809 - 01/12/07 02:47 PM Re: ___SWING EIGHTHS IN JAZZ __
dpvjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 287
Loc: phoenix az
More links for how musicians swing and play jazz. Louis Armstrong is a great place to start learning how to swing. There are so many different ways to approach jazz that listening to all the players and how they played their music on the beat, behind the beat, and in front all have a place in jazz history. DPVJAZZ

http://www.musilosophy.com/swing-jazz-rhythm.htm
http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday_ejp.php?riff=1
http://www.jazzmediapress.com/whatisajazzsinger/index.html
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:yAHn...ient= firefox-a
http://www.musicdispatch.com/bin/MDInstrumentalCat261-284.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/jazz/beat/discography_artist_armstrong.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/stridepiano/midifiles.htm
http://www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html
http://playlikeme.com/bills-blog/index.html

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