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#1133482 - 02/23/08 06:05 AM A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
I don't know if what I have to say is going to generate much discussion, but it's something I'd like to share with PW members.

This post was prompted by the "Disciple has been driven off" post.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/1278.html

I value PW's forums. The forums provide an opportunity for us to talk to, share with, and learn from others.

I believe in trying to understand, be considerate and respectful of others on these forums and that there are consequences for my actions.

I believe it's possible to discuss and critique music - to explain one's dislike for and faults of music in an even handed, respectful manner based on fair comparisons and facts. The kinds of factual data that cannot be disputed.

I believe expressing our opinions - things we may not agree on based on certain non-factual value judgments, for instance, our likes and dislikes - are not grounds for becoming offended, as long as opinions are clearly presented as opinions and in a respectful manner.

I think criticism based on unfair comparisons, inconsiderate, boorish/snobbish attitudes; and thoughtless, rude, insulting, mean-spirited remarks - no matter how cleverly crafted - is offensive and destroys the purpose and experience of our being here. That kind of discourse does nothing to further our understanding of each other's differing viewpoints and prevents us from learning from one another. Instead it puts us on the defensive and makes for rude, angry, out-of-control exchanges that degrade the interaction we have with each other and us along with it.

There is a socially acceptable norm in society and on these forums that I think most of us at least try to adhere to. But I've sadly come to the conclusion that there are people in the world who cannot understand, are unable to recognize, or do not wish to recognize that certain types of expression is outside the accepted norm and is offensive. Is it that or that they just don't care or enjoy inciting "riots"? Or maybe they have an unconconscious wish to alienate themselves from others? Or they are unable or unwilling to change their bad behavior? (Please excuse me, I try to understand other people so as to try to get along with them. If some consider that to be a personal fault or failing as Virtuosic1 seems once to have said to me, I'm guilty.)

I guess I'm too idealistic. Unlike some other members here, I'd rather not tolerate or play along with (take advantage of?) rude people merely because I think I could learn something from them. I do not believe that knowledge, expertise, talent - whatever - is a license or provides some kind of justification for a person to act any way they want. I'd like to think there are consequences for those kinds of actions that are unfair and/or socially unnacceptable, whether mine or someone elses.

I do believe most of us here on PW attempt to express ourselves in a civilized manner, but the other kind of PW members do exist. My impression is they often don't last long. They are banned or maybe they leave of their own accord? That's too bad. We would otherwise have, all of us, welcomed them. We could have had some interesting and enjoyable discussions and maybe even learned something from each other.

I'm interested in hearing other members views on this subject.

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133483 - 02/23/08 10:10 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1241
 Quote:
the other kind of PW members do exist. My impression is they often don't last long. They are banned or maybe they leave of their own accord?
The problem in this case is that only one of them is gone - the one with the most to offer musically. I've never had any contact with any of the key players in this case. I've simply observed this latest episode from a safe distance. There's plenty of blame to go around.

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#1133484 - 02/23/08 10:42 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Jeanne,

This is a theme that comes up once in a while in threads. Heck, I remember a newbie a couple of years ago initiating a thread just like this one because he recoiled from the "hack and slash' take-no-prisoners sword fighting that broke out here so often. Maybe I'll go back and find that thread, just for old times sake. \:\)

Threads like this one deserve to sprout up once in a while. The medium often encourages the worst in people. Anonymity does have its disadvantages, as does conversation at such a remove from personal contact. Nonetheless, it is the game we play. And every once in a while there is some mileage in reminding people that it is their choice what to write. No one forces us to be disrespectful to other posters.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1133485 - 02/23/08 12:31 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1239
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Well, we live in a real world and as long as this is a public forum, we can and will have participants of all sorts post here.

I don't know how the decisions are made to ban someone and I'm happy that I don't have to make the decisions. Of course some situations would be clear but most are in the proverbial 'gray area'.

Understanding that we CANNOT change anyone, my solution is to just not respond to any inflammatory posts. Unfortunately, sometimes the temptation is intense and you REALLY REALLY don't want to let the post stand unchallenged. Then you post and it only gets worse. I would suggest resisting the challenge and just letting it die.

Some just can't for whatever reason or maybe they enjoy keeping the pot stirred. I expect that if everyone had just stopped responding this thread would have disappeared quickly. Unfortunately I think people actually believe that if they make this one last 'well reasoned' post that the person would obviously see their 'correct' view and change their ways. Ain't gonna happen and they are just feeding the problem.

To that I say, take a deep breath and either step back and look at it as the childish exchange it is or if you can't do that, just plain ignore the entire thread or stay away from the forum entirely for a week or two until it all dies down.

Life is too short to let this sort of Internet foolishness get to you. Not worth it.

Just let it go.

And here I am, I think if I send out this 'well reasoned' post that people will oviously see my point and change their ways.

HAH!
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1133486 - 02/23/08 12:36 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
ocd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 201
Loc: North East
I am willing to wade through a lot of disrespectful and offensive postings to find good technical discussions. It is a personal preference. Your trade-offs are different from mine, clearly.

I suppose that you could argue that one can express any possible technical point while being exquisitely polite, and you could be right. But it takes work to make sure that nobody could ever be possibly be offended by what one says. Maybe some of us are not as tastefully socialized as others and prefer a less punctilious milieu. Perhaps my preferences are a sign of testosterone poisoning!

Cucumber finger sandwiches anyone?

ocd
_________________________
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

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#1133487 - 02/23/08 12:49 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Roger Ransom says: "Understanding that we CANNOT change anyone, my solution is to just not respond to any inflammatory posts. Unfortunately, sometimes the temptation is intense and you REALLY REALLY don't want to let the post stand unchallenged. Then you post and it only gets worse. I would suggest resisting the challenge and just letting it die."

At the minimum, it's ok to say "I very much disagree". I'm going to give that a try soon.

I posted just before this in the piano teachers forum because of the same problems - and I imagine it will be worse rather than better. "It" being the content of the posting may die away, but the continuation of the same tone of voice, lives on in the person unless you somehow reach through to them to let them know their style is not working for them on the receiving end. Try some thing else."

Betty

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#1133488 - 02/23/08 12:56 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I think the message gets lost if it is conveyed in a disrespctuful and offensive manner. The point is either the person is talking about something you already know and understand and hence can understand as "good technical material" and therefore you don't need that. Or either the person is talking is talking about something you ignore, something which might be good "technical material" but ... how do you know if the person doesn't have enough confidence for the material to speak for themselves and must resort to insulting and bragging, if the person is so insicure to fight against any little civil disagreeement, if the person is more worried about defending honor than making the point clear? It's rather impossible to discriminate the good material from the way it is conveyed. The strength of the material give confidence and control to the person. He knows facts will speak for themselves and feels safe that whatever is said will be baked up by the reality of it.

I posted about a program of weight lifting in young kids. If someone started to doubt it I would understand and try to explain the pros. If skepticism and disagreement arised I would accept and try to explain point by point why I believe in the safeness and correctness of the program. Eventually the fact that I can reply with material, fact, information in a self-confident way says something about the program and its merits. If I started to call idiots, incompetents, naysayers and to claim how they haven't ever liften that much weight, or runned that much distance or know Mr. Faigenbaum and how I have instead ... people would start to doubt how valid the information I have provided are, how they don't and "can't" speak for themselves and they would be right. How a person is sure of what he/she says and what he/she believes also demonstrate how what he/she says and believe allows this person to be sure, confident and willing to reply to questions and doubts. If the person needs to resort to attacks, insults, bragging, begging ... then in my opinion it say something about the information as well.

So the point is

If I know that the information is correct I already know what is discussed and don't need to wade through lot of useless offensive postings

If I don't know the information and it is something interesting and new to me then the way it is presented says something about how trusteable the information is in the first place.

Testosterone has nothing to do with anything.

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#1133489 - 02/23/08 01:07 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Testosterone has nothing to do with anything.
Hmm... it has something to do with something.

(That is my attempt at being 'exquisitely polite') ;\)
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#1133490 - 02/23/08 01:17 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I myself has been subjected to the same unfair commentary as Disciple and by one of the same people. A whole thread was focused on it. Fortunately no one sided with the 'chappie'. I got hot headed there for a moment but I'm been around these forums long enough to just ignore the thread.

The point is that these individuals have nothing good to share. They spend their time criticizing. Disciple on the other hand was constantly sharing. Was he opinionated? Of course. The other party I mention above was too. So he gets to contribute nothing unproductive arguments and instigate more fights while another is banned.

Offensiveness is pretty common around here. And then we have the 'drive by shooters' who make no comment, but insult you nevertheless with unexplainable ratings.

Sometimes we have to take people in balance. And those that contribute positively, I honestly cut them more slack. No different than real life. This is not all black and white.

Those who do nothing but provide negative Karma get to stay indefinitely. How's that for balance?

So my response is: I don't take things to seriously anymore. It's not worth it. If you have a good relationship with a few good people here, it makes it fun.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1133491 - 02/23/08 01:27 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
I know this will never happen, and I am not saying that it should, but if people had to identify themselves, rather than hide under their desks behind pseudonyms, the tone of the conversations would be much more civil.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1133492 - 02/23/08 01:40 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Hey, I'm all for that!

When you use your real name (Google: "Betty Patnude") everything you write in piano forum goes on the internet and you can read your history of posting on PWF there.

Some of the posters would possibly be more cautious about what they write if it shows up in "ink" other places!

Did you know this?

Betty

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#1133493 - 02/23/08 01:43 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
The main problem, if you ask me, is not one of being exquisite or not, but of emotional investment in what we write, of how much ego we hang to our message.

A poster can be the most unbearable bitch/the most unpleasant bastard in real life, but if she or he does not attach much of his ego to what he writes he will not start to fume when people he does not esteem disagree with him.

A poster who is the nicest gal/the most agreeable guy in real life but attaches too much of its ego to what he writes will need to fight a world war about such occurrences just to be able to sleep at night, probably not succeeding even at that.....

Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character.

P.s. PW is very civilized and no mistake.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133494 - 02/23/08 01:50 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
If people had to identify themselves, many (including me) would not write.

In a forum you express your opinion in, say, religious and political matter; my employer or prospective employer have no legal right whatsoever to put its nose into those.
If my name had to be there, it would be somewhat easy to do just that (unless your name is John Smith and all boards have this rule).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133495 - 02/23/08 02:25 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
"unless your name is John Smith"
Hey, how'd you know my real name. Now I'm in trouble.
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1133496 - 02/23/08 02:37 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
A word about anonymity: People who are concerned with security and privacy generally consider it a bad idea to post under your real name in forums, as it can leave you vulnerable to unscrupulous people on the internet at large.


Jeanne W:
I believe that the title of this thread creates a false dichotomy. It implies that either we follow this particular notion of politeness, OR, we are rude and uncivilized... with no other options.

I believe that the "socially acceptable norm" you refer to is actually a particularly American norm, and is not universal. For example, the French are often considered by Americans to be overly opinionated and derisive in their expression. But they just have a different way of discussing ideas... one which I happen to admire, and which is conducive to intellectual exchange.

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#1133497 - 02/23/08 03:25 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
+Innominato!

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#1133498 - 02/23/08 03:28 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
P.s. PW is very civilized and no mistake. [/b]
Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company. I'm not the "PC" type, but I think the word is fairly offensive. Like I said, nothing personal.

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#1133499 - 02/23/08 03:39 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Are you going to be okay, J. Mark?

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#1133500 - 02/23/08 04:31 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
If people had to identify themselves, many (including me) would not write.

In a forum you express your opinion in, say, religious and political matter; my employer or prospective employer have no legal right whatsoever to put its nose into those.
If my name had to be there, it would be somewhat easy to do just that (unless your name is John Smith and all boards have this rule). [/b]
This is not a religious or political forum.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1133501 - 02/24/08 03:26 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Thanks, everyone, for posting. I'd like to respond to some of what you've said.

Piano Dad: You said this is a topic that comes up every once in a while. Now that I think of it, I participated in this type of discussion topic a while back. I'd forgotten about that.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Ransom:

Well, we live in a real world and as long as this is a public forum, we can and will have participants of all sorts post here….take a deep breath and either step back and look at it as the childish exchange it is or if you can't do that, just plain ignore the entire thread or stay away from the forum entirely for a week or two until it all dies down. [/b]
Yes, I guess that's the thing to do. As far as living in the real world goes, I need to keep reminding myself it isn't the way I'd wish for it to be.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
"I'm willing to wade through a lot of disrespectful and offensive postings to find good technical discussions. It is a personal preference. Your trade-offs are different from mine, clearly." [/b]
Clearly, yes, we're different, ocd.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
"…it takes work to make sure that nobody could ever be possibly be offended by what one says." [/b]
I don't think there's a way to ensure that "nobody could ever be possibly offended by what one says." But there is a sure fire way to say something in a blatantly rude and disrespectful way that many people will be offended by.

Just would like to add, in regards to something else you said, ocd, that I think being opinionated is great! And it can be expressed without being rude.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
Maybe some of us are not as tastefully socialized as others and prefer a less punctilious milieu. Perhaps my preferences are a sign of testosterone poisoning!" [/b]
Yes, the question is, do we defer to the less civilized or more civilized?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patenaude: "It's ok to say "I very much disagree". [/b]
Yes, it certainly is a way of dealing with this.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patenaude: "…the content of the posting may die away, but the continuation of the same tone of voice, lives on in the person unless you somehow reach through to them to let them know their style is not working for them on the receiving end…" [/b]
Some people will never change. It's pointless to try.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Nicklas :I think the message gets lost if it is conveyed in a disrespectful and offensive manner." [/b]
Yes, that's true for many of us.

Side Thought/Question: A couple of you mention testosterone, does that tie in with ego? Are most people who get really good at or knowledgable about something - pompass you-know-whats? Do the two go hand-in-hand? (Danny, in your experience, do most of those you knew in the conservatory share your point of view? Which I consider to be free of bias and snobbishness?)

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee: "And then we have the 'drive by shooters' who make no comment, but insult you nevertheless with unexplainable ratings." [/b]
jazzwee, you made me laugh. That's pretty funny. I never thought of that. :rolleyes:

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee: "Those who do nothing but provide negative Karma get to stay indefinitely. How's that for balance?" [/b]
Too bad if that's true. I'm not sure that's the case. Hope not.

rocket88: You bring up the anonymity factor. I agree with those who would like to keep the anonymity. Wouldn't it be nice if we could be grown up and civilized enough to conduct ourselves in a fitting manner even while under the cover of that element of anonomity?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Innommato: "A poster can be the most unbearable bitch/the most unpleasant bastard in real life, but if she or he does not attach much of his ego to what he writes he will not start to fume when people he does not esteem disagree with him.

A poster who is the nicest gal/the most agreeable guy in real life but attaches too much of its ego to what he writes will need to fight a world war about such occurrences just to be able to sleep at night, probably not succeeding even at that.....

Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character."Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character." [/b]
I'm considering what you say. I agree that some people get nasty and lash out because they are trying to defend their ego, they are insecure.

The other point you make, that a person can conduct themselves on the forums in a completely different way than they do in real life.
That to me is a brand new idea I've never considered before. I would think that most people conduct themselves the same on PW as in the real world. I'd like to think that people who do an about face simply because there's an element of anonymity or because they are so wrapped up in the fact they've put something into writing, my guess is those people are the exception rather than the rule.

Time to take a breather, everyone!

My compliments to all PW members who put their best foot forward on PW. Everyone who has posted on this thread so far certainly has. \:\)

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133502 - 02/24/08 04:45 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
AD Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 193
Everyone? Take off the rose tinted specs.
Seems to me PW has again thrown out the baby and kept the bathwater.

TTFN
_________________________
-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.

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#1133503 - 02/24/08 05:48 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
AD:

Your comment... (no offense taken)

Are we both part of the bathwater?

\:D

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133504 - 02/24/08 06:28 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company".

Thanks for the useful - and very civilized - observation.

I am not "mother tongue" and I find the expression "bitch" used very often in, say, popular TV shows like "Friends" and from colleagues, particularly female ones.

I obviously noticed it because I had until recently thought that the word was a synonym of, say, prostitute, whilst it seems to be used very often (and correct me if I am wrong) in the sense of "fussy and unpleasant female" (German: "Zicke"; Italian: "Arpia" or "Megera").
So much so, that I have often heard even a verbal form (eg "she is bitching him all the time").

I apologize if the wrong meaning has been conveyed, but am now curious to know how other forum participants see the word.....

I think "bastard", which I have also used, is a parallel case: the literal meaning has been long lost to make place to a more figurative one.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133505 - 02/24/08 06:45 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"This is not a religious or political forum".

I do not see what this changes in the matter.

This is a forum.
In every forum political or religious opinions will come out because we cannot switch off a part of us when we write. My political ideas, to make an example, came out very clearly speaking about pianos made in communist countries. One just cannot write in a vacuum.

Moreover, the idea that a person has a right to have his privacy protected is not one that I have invented; it comes from the lawmakers, everywhere in the Western world, and with a reason.

It goes so far that here in old Europe (I have lived in Italy, Germany and now UK) everyone has the right to express himself in anonymous form in his communication with several public bodies: for example, in the UK I have a statutory right to remain anonymous even when I have to say something to the Police or to the Taxman even when I do not discuss politics or religion with them.

In the UK I do not even have a statutory duty to have an identity card! That's how far it goes!

In Italy an anonymous denunciation of a crime or illicit behavior has the same legal status, and must be dealt with in the same way, that a non-anonymous one.

That's as far as it goes, and with every reason.

Now to ask that such fundamental rights to privacy are sacrificed because someone is afraid of what Disciple might write (or what other people might write to him) seems to me way off the mark; not very libertarian if you ask me; and always in my eyes detrimental to a varied participation of the forum.

I also personally do not know of any forum where such rules are applied and the idea does not seem to me to be popular at all, even outside of "political and religious" fora; methinks, the disadvantages of practical (everyone can give a false name, address and date of birth anyway) and legal nature (protection of privacy, liability in case of identity theft etc.) vastly overcome the perceived advantages.

Just my two cents.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133506 - 02/24/08 06:50 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
You have an incorrect and incomplete understanding of the law. I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work). You have a right to anonymity, but I have a right to pierce that anonymity, too -- for example, to sue you, or to obtain testimony from you.

It is my belief that in the future there will be much less anonymity on the Internet, because it protects inappropriate, unlawful and unethical behavior.

But hey, I could be wrong. \:\)

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#1133507 - 02/24/08 06:56 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

I never said that you cannot. You can obtain the information which the law allows you to obtain, be that because you are my prospective employer, or because you want to know to whom a car who drove against yours belong etc.

But I have the right to control what expressions of mine go into the public domain, without being forced to give away my right to privacy.

You cannot, anyway (at least here in the UK) make enquiries about my political or religious ideas, or my sexual orientation. If you make an interview with me on the phone, you cannot ask me if I am white or asian etc. You cannot even ask me in an interview if I am single, married or divorced and if I have children or am (say) pregnant... ;\)

Of course and as always, the law will make a balance of conflicting rights (eg my right to privacy with the right of a bank not to employ someone convicted with fraud; or of a school not to employ anyone convicted with child molestation etc.; or a religious organisation not to employ atheists...; or a pacifist charity not to employ former SAS soldiers... ) deciding every time which information when who can obtain.

Notice that the idea that it can be of social advantage to renounce to anonimity in a forum seem not to be considered important anywhere, the right to anonimity being far more important (and mind: terrorists use the internet too...).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133508 - 02/24/08 07:06 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

On second thought: try and let us see what you get! \:\)
(But please send me per pm, I do not want it to go into the public domain...).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133509 - 02/24/08 07:15 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

On second thought: try and let us see what you get! \:\)
(But please send me per pm, I do not want it to go into the public domain...). [/b]
It might be fun, but seriously, I don't have time. Also, it would cost me money, which I prefer not to waste. This is the kind of thing I do for a client, when there is a reason that justifies the time and expense. I'm sure Frank could tell you all about it.

Let's not turn this into a personal thing. In the spirit of the thread....

I just wanted to contribute a bit to the discussion about anonymity. It's not as real as some people think. Indeed, there is very little real "privacy" left in this world, a fact that I have a lot of mixed feelings about....

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#1133510 - 02/25/08 03:04 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
Of course, Mark, nothing personal and nothing aggressive.

I was just curious to see how much would have been available just from the sources that I have myself "spread" on the Internet.

The mere fact that you might gather facts over me spending time and money shows in my eyes that the protection of the privacy, in fact, works; and the fact that someon ein the US can only gather information about me spending time and money shows that the protection of privacy is, in fact, a good thing... ;\)

But I agree with you that this is slowly bring us OT; although notice, we have handled our disagreement in a perfectly civilized way, which shows that there is always more than one way of doing things... \:\) and we have chosen the right one \:\)
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133511 - 02/25/08 03:23 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
"Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company"...
I think "bastard", which I have also used, is a parallel case: the literal meaning has been long lost to make place to a more figurative one. [/b]
Bitch should only be used as a verb in polite company (unless you are a rapper, in which case the n-word is fine too (though I think you have to be a black rapper to use that)). Bastard is kinda OK but has its contexts. I've forgotten who we're referring to now.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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