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#1133482 - 02/23/08 06:05 AM A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
I don't know if what I have to say is going to generate much discussion, but it's something I'd like to share with PW members.

This post was prompted by the "Disciple has been driven off" post.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/1278.html

I value PW's forums. The forums provide an opportunity for us to talk to, share with, and learn from others.

I believe in trying to understand, be considerate and respectful of others on these forums and that there are consequences for my actions.

I believe it's possible to discuss and critique music - to explain one's dislike for and faults of music in an even handed, respectful manner based on fair comparisons and facts. The kinds of factual data that cannot be disputed.

I believe expressing our opinions - things we may not agree on based on certain non-factual value judgments, for instance, our likes and dislikes - are not grounds for becoming offended, as long as opinions are clearly presented as opinions and in a respectful manner.

I think criticism based on unfair comparisons, inconsiderate, boorish/snobbish attitudes; and thoughtless, rude, insulting, mean-spirited remarks - no matter how cleverly crafted - is offensive and destroys the purpose and experience of our being here. That kind of discourse does nothing to further our understanding of each other's differing viewpoints and prevents us from learning from one another. Instead it puts us on the defensive and makes for rude, angry, out-of-control exchanges that degrade the interaction we have with each other and us along with it.

There is a socially acceptable norm in society and on these forums that I think most of us at least try to adhere to. But I've sadly come to the conclusion that there are people in the world who cannot understand, are unable to recognize, or do not wish to recognize that certain types of expression is outside the accepted norm and is offensive. Is it that or that they just don't care or enjoy inciting "riots"? Or maybe they have an unconconscious wish to alienate themselves from others? Or they are unable or unwilling to change their bad behavior? (Please excuse me, I try to understand other people so as to try to get along with them. If some consider that to be a personal fault or failing as Virtuosic1 seems once to have said to me, I'm guilty.)

I guess I'm too idealistic. Unlike some other members here, I'd rather not tolerate or play along with (take advantage of?) rude people merely because I think I could learn something from them. I do not believe that knowledge, expertise, talent - whatever - is a license or provides some kind of justification for a person to act any way they want. I'd like to think there are consequences for those kinds of actions that are unfair and/or socially unnacceptable, whether mine or someone elses.

I do believe most of us here on PW attempt to express ourselves in a civilized manner, but the other kind of PW members do exist. My impression is they often don't last long. They are banned or maybe they leave of their own accord? That's too bad. We would otherwise have, all of us, welcomed them. We could have had some interesting and enjoyable discussions and maybe even learned something from each other.

I'm interested in hearing other members views on this subject.

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133483 - 02/23/08 10:10 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1242
 Quote:
the other kind of PW members do exist. My impression is they often don't last long. They are banned or maybe they leave of their own accord?
The problem in this case is that only one of them is gone - the one with the most to offer musically. I've never had any contact with any of the key players in this case. I've simply observed this latest episode from a safe distance. There's plenty of blame to go around.

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#1133484 - 02/23/08 10:42 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Jeanne,

This is a theme that comes up once in a while in threads. Heck, I remember a newbie a couple of years ago initiating a thread just like this one because he recoiled from the "hack and slash' take-no-prisoners sword fighting that broke out here so often. Maybe I'll go back and find that thread, just for old times sake. \:\)

Threads like this one deserve to sprout up once in a while. The medium often encourages the worst in people. Anonymity does have its disadvantages, as does conversation at such a remove from personal contact. Nonetheless, it is the game we play. And every once in a while there is some mileage in reminding people that it is their choice what to write. No one forces us to be disrespectful to other posters.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1133485 - 02/23/08 12:31 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Well, we live in a real world and as long as this is a public forum, we can and will have participants of all sorts post here.

I don't know how the decisions are made to ban someone and I'm happy that I don't have to make the decisions. Of course some situations would be clear but most are in the proverbial 'gray area'.

Understanding that we CANNOT change anyone, my solution is to just not respond to any inflammatory posts. Unfortunately, sometimes the temptation is intense and you REALLY REALLY don't want to let the post stand unchallenged. Then you post and it only gets worse. I would suggest resisting the challenge and just letting it die.

Some just can't for whatever reason or maybe they enjoy keeping the pot stirred. I expect that if everyone had just stopped responding this thread would have disappeared quickly. Unfortunately I think people actually believe that if they make this one last 'well reasoned' post that the person would obviously see their 'correct' view and change their ways. Ain't gonna happen and they are just feeding the problem.

To that I say, take a deep breath and either step back and look at it as the childish exchange it is or if you can't do that, just plain ignore the entire thread or stay away from the forum entirely for a week or two until it all dies down.

Life is too short to let this sort of Internet foolishness get to you. Not worth it.

Just let it go.

And here I am, I think if I send out this 'well reasoned' post that people will oviously see my point and change their ways.

HAH!
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1133486 - 02/23/08 12:36 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
ocd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 201
Loc: North East
I am willing to wade through a lot of disrespectful and offensive postings to find good technical discussions. It is a personal preference. Your trade-offs are different from mine, clearly.

I suppose that you could argue that one can express any possible technical point while being exquisitely polite, and you could be right. But it takes work to make sure that nobody could ever be possibly be offended by what one says. Maybe some of us are not as tastefully socialized as others and prefer a less punctilious milieu. Perhaps my preferences are a sign of testosterone poisoning!

Cucumber finger sandwiches anyone?

ocd
_________________________
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

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#1133487 - 02/23/08 12:49 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Roger Ransom says: "Understanding that we CANNOT change anyone, my solution is to just not respond to any inflammatory posts. Unfortunately, sometimes the temptation is intense and you REALLY REALLY don't want to let the post stand unchallenged. Then you post and it only gets worse. I would suggest resisting the challenge and just letting it die."

At the minimum, it's ok to say "I very much disagree". I'm going to give that a try soon.

I posted just before this in the piano teachers forum because of the same problems - and I imagine it will be worse rather than better. "It" being the content of the posting may die away, but the continuation of the same tone of voice, lives on in the person unless you somehow reach through to them to let them know their style is not working for them on the receiving end. Try some thing else."

Betty

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#1133488 - 02/23/08 12:56 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I think the message gets lost if it is conveyed in a disrespctuful and offensive manner. The point is either the person is talking about something you already know and understand and hence can understand as "good technical material" and therefore you don't need that. Or either the person is talking is talking about something you ignore, something which might be good "technical material" but ... how do you know if the person doesn't have enough confidence for the material to speak for themselves and must resort to insulting and bragging, if the person is so insicure to fight against any little civil disagreeement, if the person is more worried about defending honor than making the point clear? It's rather impossible to discriminate the good material from the way it is conveyed. The strength of the material give confidence and control to the person. He knows facts will speak for themselves and feels safe that whatever is said will be baked up by the reality of it.

I posted about a program of weight lifting in young kids. If someone started to doubt it I would understand and try to explain the pros. If skepticism and disagreement arised I would accept and try to explain point by point why I believe in the safeness and correctness of the program. Eventually the fact that I can reply with material, fact, information in a self-confident way says something about the program and its merits. If I started to call idiots, incompetents, naysayers and to claim how they haven't ever liften that much weight, or runned that much distance or know Mr. Faigenbaum and how I have instead ... people would start to doubt how valid the information I have provided are, how they don't and "can't" speak for themselves and they would be right. How a person is sure of what he/she says and what he/she believes also demonstrate how what he/she says and believe allows this person to be sure, confident and willing to reply to questions and doubts. If the person needs to resort to attacks, insults, bragging, begging ... then in my opinion it say something about the information as well.

So the point is

If I know that the information is correct I already know what is discussed and don't need to wade through lot of useless offensive postings

If I don't know the information and it is something interesting and new to me then the way it is presented says something about how trusteable the information is in the first place.

Testosterone has nothing to do with anything.

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#1133489 - 02/23/08 01:07 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Testosterone has nothing to do with anything.
Hmm... it has something to do with something.

(That is my attempt at being 'exquisitely polite') ;\)
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#1133490 - 02/23/08 01:17 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
I myself has been subjected to the same unfair commentary as Disciple and by one of the same people. A whole thread was focused on it. Fortunately no one sided with the 'chappie'. I got hot headed there for a moment but I'm been around these forums long enough to just ignore the thread.

The point is that these individuals have nothing good to share. They spend their time criticizing. Disciple on the other hand was constantly sharing. Was he opinionated? Of course. The other party I mention above was too. So he gets to contribute nothing unproductive arguments and instigate more fights while another is banned.

Offensiveness is pretty common around here. And then we have the 'drive by shooters' who make no comment, but insult you nevertheless with unexplainable ratings.

Sometimes we have to take people in balance. And those that contribute positively, I honestly cut them more slack. No different than real life. This is not all black and white.

Those who do nothing but provide negative Karma get to stay indefinitely. How's that for balance?

So my response is: I don't take things to seriously anymore. It's not worth it. If you have a good relationship with a few good people here, it makes it fun.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1133491 - 02/23/08 01:27 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
I know this will never happen, and I am not saying that it should, but if people had to identify themselves, rather than hide under their desks behind pseudonyms, the tone of the conversations would be much more civil.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1133492 - 02/23/08 01:40 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Hey, I'm all for that!

When you use your real name (Google: "Betty Patnude") everything you write in piano forum goes on the internet and you can read your history of posting on PWF there.

Some of the posters would possibly be more cautious about what they write if it shows up in "ink" other places!

Did you know this?

Betty

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#1133493 - 02/23/08 01:43 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
The main problem, if you ask me, is not one of being exquisite or not, but of emotional investment in what we write, of how much ego we hang to our message.

A poster can be the most unbearable bitch/the most unpleasant bastard in real life, but if she or he does not attach much of his ego to what he writes he will not start to fume when people he does not esteem disagree with him.

A poster who is the nicest gal/the most agreeable guy in real life but attaches too much of its ego to what he writes will need to fight a world war about such occurrences just to be able to sleep at night, probably not succeeding even at that.....

Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character.

P.s. PW is very civilized and no mistake.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133494 - 02/23/08 01:50 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
If people had to identify themselves, many (including me) would not write.

In a forum you express your opinion in, say, religious and political matter; my employer or prospective employer have no legal right whatsoever to put its nose into those.
If my name had to be there, it would be somewhat easy to do just that (unless your name is John Smith and all boards have this rule).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133495 - 02/23/08 02:25 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
"unless your name is John Smith"
Hey, how'd you know my real name. Now I'm in trouble.
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1133496 - 02/23/08 02:37 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
A word about anonymity: People who are concerned with security and privacy generally consider it a bad idea to post under your real name in forums, as it can leave you vulnerable to unscrupulous people on the internet at large.


Jeanne W:
I believe that the title of this thread creates a false dichotomy. It implies that either we follow this particular notion of politeness, OR, we are rude and uncivilized... with no other options.

I believe that the "socially acceptable norm" you refer to is actually a particularly American norm, and is not universal. For example, the French are often considered by Americans to be overly opinionated and derisive in their expression. But they just have a different way of discussing ideas... one which I happen to admire, and which is conducive to intellectual exchange.

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#1133497 - 02/23/08 03:25 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
+Innominato!

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#1133498 - 02/23/08 03:28 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
P.s. PW is very civilized and no mistake. [/b]
Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company. I'm not the "PC" type, but I think the word is fairly offensive. Like I said, nothing personal.

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#1133499 - 02/23/08 03:39 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Are you going to be okay, J. Mark?

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#1133500 - 02/23/08 04:31 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
If people had to identify themselves, many (including me) would not write.

In a forum you express your opinion in, say, religious and political matter; my employer or prospective employer have no legal right whatsoever to put its nose into those.
If my name had to be there, it would be somewhat easy to do just that (unless your name is John Smith and all boards have this rule). [/b]
This is not a religious or political forum.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1133501 - 02/24/08 03:26 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Thanks, everyone, for posting. I'd like to respond to some of what you've said.

Piano Dad: You said this is a topic that comes up every once in a while. Now that I think of it, I participated in this type of discussion topic a while back. I'd forgotten about that.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Ransom:

Well, we live in a real world and as long as this is a public forum, we can and will have participants of all sorts post here….take a deep breath and either step back and look at it as the childish exchange it is or if you can't do that, just plain ignore the entire thread or stay away from the forum entirely for a week or two until it all dies down. [/b]
Yes, I guess that's the thing to do. As far as living in the real world goes, I need to keep reminding myself it isn't the way I'd wish for it to be.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
"I'm willing to wade through a lot of disrespectful and offensive postings to find good technical discussions. It is a personal preference. Your trade-offs are different from mine, clearly." [/b]
Clearly, yes, we're different, ocd.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
"…it takes work to make sure that nobody could ever be possibly be offended by what one says." [/b]
I don't think there's a way to ensure that "nobody could ever be possibly offended by what one says." But there is a sure fire way to say something in a blatantly rude and disrespectful way that many people will be offended by.

Just would like to add, in regards to something else you said, ocd, that I think being opinionated is great! And it can be expressed without being rude.

 Quote:
Originally posted by ocd
Maybe some of us are not as tastefully socialized as others and prefer a less punctilious milieu. Perhaps my preferences are a sign of testosterone poisoning!" [/b]
Yes, the question is, do we defer to the less civilized or more civilized?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patenaude: "It's ok to say "I very much disagree". [/b]
Yes, it certainly is a way of dealing with this.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Patenaude: "…the content of the posting may die away, but the continuation of the same tone of voice, lives on in the person unless you somehow reach through to them to let them know their style is not working for them on the receiving end…" [/b]
Some people will never change. It's pointless to try.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Nicklas :I think the message gets lost if it is conveyed in a disrespectful and offensive manner." [/b]
Yes, that's true for many of us.

Side Thought/Question: A couple of you mention testosterone, does that tie in with ego? Are most people who get really good at or knowledgable about something - pompass you-know-whats? Do the two go hand-in-hand? (Danny, in your experience, do most of those you knew in the conservatory share your point of view? Which I consider to be free of bias and snobbishness?)

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee: "And then we have the 'drive by shooters' who make no comment, but insult you nevertheless with unexplainable ratings." [/b]
jazzwee, you made me laugh. That's pretty funny. I never thought of that. :rolleyes:

 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee: "Those who do nothing but provide negative Karma get to stay indefinitely. How's that for balance?" [/b]
Too bad if that's true. I'm not sure that's the case. Hope not.

rocket88: You bring up the anonymity factor. I agree with those who would like to keep the anonymity. Wouldn't it be nice if we could be grown up and civilized enough to conduct ourselves in a fitting manner even while under the cover of that element of anonomity?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Innommato: "A poster can be the most unbearable bitch/the most unpleasant bastard in real life, but if she or he does not attach much of his ego to what he writes he will not start to fume when people he does not esteem disagree with him.

A poster who is the nicest gal/the most agreeable guy in real life but attaches too much of its ego to what he writes will need to fight a world war about such occurrences just to be able to sleep at night, probably not succeeding even at that.....

Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character."Most problems, I think, are born out of ego-investment, not of personal character." [/b]
I'm considering what you say. I agree that some people get nasty and lash out because they are trying to defend their ego, they are insecure.

The other point you make, that a person can conduct themselves on the forums in a completely different way than they do in real life.
That to me is a brand new idea I've never considered before. I would think that most people conduct themselves the same on PW as in the real world. I'd like to think that people who do an about face simply because there's an element of anonymity or because they are so wrapped up in the fact they've put something into writing, my guess is those people are the exception rather than the rule.

Time to take a breather, everyone!

My compliments to all PW members who put their best foot forward on PW. Everyone who has posted on this thread so far certainly has. \:\)

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133502 - 02/24/08 04:45 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
AD Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 193
Everyone? Take off the rose tinted specs.
Seems to me PW has again thrown out the baby and kept the bathwater.

TTFN
_________________________
-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.

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#1133503 - 02/24/08 05:48 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
AD:

Your comment... (no offense taken)

Are we both part of the bathwater?

\:D

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133504 - 02/24/08 06:28 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company".

Thanks for the useful - and very civilized - observation.

I am not "mother tongue" and I find the expression "bitch" used very often in, say, popular TV shows like "Friends" and from colleagues, particularly female ones.

I obviously noticed it because I had until recently thought that the word was a synonym of, say, prostitute, whilst it seems to be used very often (and correct me if I am wrong) in the sense of "fussy and unpleasant female" (German: "Zicke"; Italian: "Arpia" or "Megera").
So much so, that I have often heard even a verbal form (eg "she is bitching him all the time").

I apologize if the wrong meaning has been conveyed, but am now curious to know how other forum participants see the word.....

I think "bastard", which I have also used, is a parallel case: the literal meaning has been long lost to make place to a more figurative one.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133505 - 02/24/08 06:45 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"This is not a religious or political forum".

I do not see what this changes in the matter.

This is a forum.
In every forum political or religious opinions will come out because we cannot switch off a part of us when we write. My political ideas, to make an example, came out very clearly speaking about pianos made in communist countries. One just cannot write in a vacuum.

Moreover, the idea that a person has a right to have his privacy protected is not one that I have invented; it comes from the lawmakers, everywhere in the Western world, and with a reason.

It goes so far that here in old Europe (I have lived in Italy, Germany and now UK) everyone has the right to express himself in anonymous form in his communication with several public bodies: for example, in the UK I have a statutory right to remain anonymous even when I have to say something to the Police or to the Taxman even when I do not discuss politics or religion with them.

In the UK I do not even have a statutory duty to have an identity card! That's how far it goes!

In Italy an anonymous denunciation of a crime or illicit behavior has the same legal status, and must be dealt with in the same way, that a non-anonymous one.

That's as far as it goes, and with every reason.

Now to ask that such fundamental rights to privacy are sacrificed because someone is afraid of what Disciple might write (or what other people might write to him) seems to me way off the mark; not very libertarian if you ask me; and always in my eyes detrimental to a varied participation of the forum.

I also personally do not know of any forum where such rules are applied and the idea does not seem to me to be popular at all, even outside of "political and religious" fora; methinks, the disadvantages of practical (everyone can give a false name, address and date of birth anyway) and legal nature (protection of privacy, liability in case of identity theft etc.) vastly overcome the perceived advantages.

Just my two cents.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133506 - 02/24/08 06:50 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
You have an incorrect and incomplete understanding of the law. I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work). You have a right to anonymity, but I have a right to pierce that anonymity, too -- for example, to sue you, or to obtain testimony from you.

It is my belief that in the future there will be much less anonymity on the Internet, because it protects inappropriate, unlawful and unethical behavior.

But hey, I could be wrong. \:\)

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#1133507 - 02/24/08 06:56 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

I never said that you cannot. You can obtain the information which the law allows you to obtain, be that because you are my prospective employer, or because you want to know to whom a car who drove against yours belong etc.

But I have the right to control what expressions of mine go into the public domain, without being forced to give away my right to privacy.

You cannot, anyway (at least here in the UK) make enquiries about my political or religious ideas, or my sexual orientation. If you make an interview with me on the phone, you cannot ask me if I am white or asian etc. You cannot even ask me in an interview if I am single, married or divorced and if I have children or am (say) pregnant... ;\)

Of course and as always, the law will make a balance of conflicting rights (eg my right to privacy with the right of a bank not to employ someone convicted with fraud; or of a school not to employ anyone convicted with child molestation etc.; or a religious organisation not to employ atheists...; or a pacifist charity not to employ former SAS soldiers... ) deciding every time which information when who can obtain.

Notice that the idea that it can be of social advantage to renounce to anonimity in a forum seem not to be considered important anywhere, the right to anonimity being far more important (and mind: terrorists use the internet too...).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133508 - 02/24/08 07:06 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

On second thought: try and let us see what you get! \:\)
(But please send me per pm, I do not want it to go into the public domain...).
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133509 - 02/24/08 07:15 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
"I could obtain personal information about you very easily (I do it all the time in my work)".

On second thought: try and let us see what you get! \:\)
(But please send me per pm, I do not want it to go into the public domain...). [/b]
It might be fun, but seriously, I don't have time. Also, it would cost me money, which I prefer not to waste. This is the kind of thing I do for a client, when there is a reason that justifies the time and expense. I'm sure Frank could tell you all about it.

Let's not turn this into a personal thing. In the spirit of the thread....

I just wanted to contribute a bit to the discussion about anonymity. It's not as real as some people think. Indeed, there is very little real "privacy" left in this world, a fact that I have a lot of mixed feelings about....

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#1133510 - 02/25/08 03:04 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
Of course, Mark, nothing personal and nothing aggressive.

I was just curious to see how much would have been available just from the sources that I have myself "spread" on the Internet.

The mere fact that you might gather facts over me spending time and money shows in my eyes that the protection of the privacy, in fact, works; and the fact that someon ein the US can only gather information about me spending time and money shows that the protection of privacy is, in fact, a good thing... ;\)

But I agree with you that this is slowly bring us OT; although notice, we have handled our disagreement in a perfectly civilized way, which shows that there is always more than one way of doing things... \:\) and we have chosen the right one \:\)
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133511 - 02/25/08 03:23 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
"Well, nothing personal, but in my experience the word "bitch" is not used in civilized company"...
I think "bastard", which I have also used, is a parallel case: the literal meaning has been long lost to make place to a more figurative one. [/b]
Bitch should only be used as a verb in polite company (unless you are a rapper, in which case the n-word is fine too (though I think you have to be a black rapper to use that)). Bastard is kinda OK but has its contexts. I've forgotten who we're referring to now.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1133512 - 02/25/08 01:18 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
dvs cycles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 158
Loc: SoCal
 Quote:
[/qb]
Bitch should only be used as a verb in polite company ..........( Bastard is kinda OK but has its contexts. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Having had purebred dogs and shown them the term BITCH is thrown around constantly. \:D
As a craftsman BASTARD is a type of file I use. \:\)

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#1133513 - 02/25/08 01:24 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
NE_Geek_Girl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Boston Suburbs
And, of course, one could chase down a b*itch or a b*st*rd with a bastard sword....

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#1133514 - 02/25/08 01:43 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11644
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Bitch should only be used as a verb in polite company (unless you are a rapper, in which case the n-word is fine too
nitch? \:D

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#1133515 - 02/25/08 01:53 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rustyfingers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 788
Loc: Massachusetts
I didn't see the discussion that sparked this thread, so these comments are not about anybody personally. I'd like to pipe in that I completely agree with Jeanne. I choose not to associate with people either in real life or on the internet who are unpleasant, regardless of their knowledge or talents. I think it is perfectly OK to be critical and disagree. It isn't OK to be abusive.

I know lots of people think the expertise of a master is worth putting up with belittling comments. It doesn't work for me though.

From my experience, music and sports seem to be the last bastions where this kind of abuse is still acceptable.

When people are like this in real life, I find other people to hang out with--whether friends, family, employers, clients, or colleagues.

I find it hard to believe that people have completely different personas online, but I do believe that it is easier to say something nasty to someone you don't know personally.

BTW swearing in itself doesn't really bother me, although I respect that it does bother some people. Swearing AT somebody though, is over the line for me. And, I think I remember Frank himself posting that the language should be family friendly as we have younger posters here.

One other thought, on how to handle bullying online. "Don't feed the troll" is the common wisdom. If you ignore it, it will die of its own.

I believe that is true, but I also believe in assertively standing up for oneself or others when someone has crossed the line. I haven't quite reconciled the right thing to do in the online environment. Sometimes a PM to the victim may help--but some people have a higher tolerance for this stuff, so that may not be appropriate.

The good news is that the wonderful people here outnumber the trolls by a large percentage.

FWIW YMMV and all that.
_________________________
If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient.

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#1133516 - 02/25/08 03:05 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Secondo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 312
Loc: Seattle, Washington
 Quote:
Let's not turn this into a personal thing. In the spirit of the thread....
The turning point in every case, where the thread goes bad, is where the discussion turns from discussing the subject matter to personal questioning or attack. Sometimes, this turn is totally uninstigated and pops up as a surprise attack. So, sticking to the subject and allowing each person his/her opinion does not seem unreasonable if we want to clean up the place. Why should personal attacks be allowed? They do not serve to enhance learning, exchange of ideas, communication, etc. Or, in the alternative, there could be an "anything goes" forum section where venting at each other is acceptable. Otherwise, it is always nice to exercise some measure of self-restraint (except when playing the piano of course).
_________________________
Baldwin SF-10 320152, Marshall & Wendell, Steinway B

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#1133517 - 02/26/08 08:26 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by Secondo:
 Quote:
Let's not turn this into a personal thing. In the spirit of the thread....
The turning point in every case, where the thread goes bad, is where the discussion turns from discussing the subject matter to personal questioning or attack. Sometimes, this turn is totally uninstigated and pops up as a surprise attack. So, sticking to the subject and allowing each person his/her opinion does not seem unreasonable if we want to clean up the place. Why should personal attacks be allowed? They do not serve to enhance learning, exchange of ideas, communication, etc. Or, in the alternative, there could be an "anything goes" forum section where venting at each other is acceptable. Otherwise, it is always nice to exercise some measure of self-restraint (except when playing the piano of course). [/b]
It was the playing and abilities of (he who shall not be mentioned on this forum) that was being attacked first and it was several, not one member who publically called (that person) a terrible pianist. When (that person) responded that he wasn't the worst musician in the world, he was then attacked as a person, then banned for telling people to look at his video to determine if he could play the piano or not. (That person) was also told that he wasn't qualified to post about Chopin or Liszt on this forum, nor were his comments wanted. On some forums, members and moderation who have singled out individuals for acceptible ridicule would rather their target remain silent while they're trashing him. That seemed to be the case here. When members are told that their opinions are unwanted, that they are unwelcome because they're not qualified to speak on the subject matter and, then ridiculed for their posts there wil be ill-will. Especially if they are qualified to offer an opinion. And I know that I'll probably be banned for saying that and for being a student of (unmentionable name). Sorry that my rationale goes contrary to forum policy.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


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#1133518 - 02/26/08 11:05 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Bitch should only be used as a verb in polite company [/b]
My hunting dog is polite but no linguist and I can tell you that this is one of his favorite words. His personal position is that it should only function as a direct object, but I digress.

Other forums on which I have participated in the past have had very active moderation around two areas:

- posting on topic, and
- personal attacks.

A little bit of personable off-topic banter and humor can keep things interesting. But, personal attacks can act as poison to a forum.

Moderation can result in posters being asked to edit offending posts and posters being suspended for issuing personal attacks. In the story of the disciple, on other forums there would have been more suspensions than just the one. Of course, self-moderation is always the best medicine.

Personally, I would rather have a high-value, rough & tumble forum where competent people exchange ideas frankly rather than a very quiet, polite, politically correct one where very little of substance is discussed. Having said that I wouldn't want pianoworld to turn into pokerworld.
And, just because it is anonymous here, there is no reason to trample on other people's feet or disregard people's emotions.

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#1133519 - 02/26/08 11:22 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
on other forums there would have been more suspensions than just the one
I think you are correct on this point. Perhaps some public warnings (a metaphorical banging of heads together) could have reduced the ugliness and immaturity a bit.

 Quote:
Of course, self-moderation is always the best medicine.
Spot on!
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1133520 - 02/26/08 11:23 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
+ one for the rough and tumble!!!!
The internet is no tea party... especially when we're talking about playing the piano!
That said, it's not a foot-stomping fest either.

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#1133521 - 02/26/08 12:18 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
Did participate in two other threads that eventually got so bad, that they were deleted by the moderator! So I have "No Comment"!

Not sure if I'm bragging, or complaining! \:D
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1133522 - 02/26/08 12:48 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"Did participate in two other threads that eventually go so bad, that they were deleted by the moderator! "

The alternative being, of course, to break your fingers... ;\)

-----------------------------------------------

In the meantime, not one but two threads run about Disciple.

Methinks, perhaps it would be time to close them both? What had to be said has been said already.

In my eyes, the moderators should examine the possibility of readmitting Disciple after a cool-down period: I have seen this in other boards and it worked very well.

Always in my experience, the appropriate behavior in case of gross personal attack is as follows:

1) post an answer to the aggressor to the sense that one does not accept the accusation (one should never give even the impression that he tolerates aggression, unless his names happens to be Neville Chamberlain, or Jimmy Carter.. ;\) ..).

2) immediately, and repeatedly if must be, report the offensive post and all questionable posts coming after it.

This is, in my eyes, a very effective counter-insurgency policy ;\) , it only needs a couple of days (at the most) for it to show its effect.

Moreover, life is always like a mirror. If we are ready to be offensive, people are going to be more ready to offend us and we will attract, in our discussions, the people who are most ready to offend; as my forefathers would have said, similia similibus solvuntur....
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133523 - 02/26/08 02:03 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Hey, in Hollywood, even bad PR is a good thing. If Disciple plans his strategy right he could probably sell a lot of CD's. Maybe titled the CD "Disciple Is Damned".

Actually I know nothing about these Disciple threads. Didn't read a thing about them. I just want to be part of this if it gets on some reality TV show.

Okay, just a little lighthearted humor. We must step back occasionally and have a good laugh at ourselves (and others). It really lightens the stress load.

Excuse me while I bust out laughing. Jeez that felt good! Oops, darn prostrate gland.

Best, John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1133524 - 02/26/08 02:13 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Hmmmmm, which of your glands is now prostrate? \:D ;\)
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1133525 - 02/26/08 02:18 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
once again a brilliant post from Innominato (I'm really starting to like this guy!!)

I hope the moderators read his post and consider his request.

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#1133526 - 02/26/08 02:28 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Hmmmmm, which of your glands is now prostrate? \:D ;\) [/b]
My Steinway Gland.
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1133527 - 02/26/08 02:37 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7061
Loc: So. California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
once again a brilliant post from Innominato (I'm really starting to like this guy!!)

I hope the moderators read his post and consider his request. [/b]
Mr. Kitty, I've always known there was something good about you ;\)

+1

And then when ALL parties concerned snap up again with commentary that relates to personal attack, then the community should bang everyone's head together and be told to "just get along".

As far as I'm concerned, debate that's ON TOPIC is a good thing. Personalizing is not.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1133528 - 02/26/08 04:12 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Betty: I didn't know that! but it seems there's a ficticious person in some sort of game world called Clueless Bob Newbie LOL ...the only thing real is my first name! at some point I need to pick another.. \:\)

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#1133529 - 02/27/08 01:50 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 1645
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Its a little sad that some people don't understand the important lesson they should have learned in their childhood -- treat others as you wish to be treated.

If one acts in an arrogant, rude, combative or insulting manner, its a virtual certainty that behavior will be reflected right back at you with equal or greater conviction. This marks of the beginning of the inevitable downward spiral of insults being hurled at one another.

Typically, it is the moderators' role to serve as peacekeeper, so that things don't get out of hand.

There will always be people in a public forum who will act in a less-than-civilized manner -- very likely, its the exact same way they act in real life. My suggestion is to simply ignore them, no matter how tempting it is to engage them. Exchanging insults never accomplishes anything, except to bring you down to their level and further escalate an already volitile situation.

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#1133530 - 02/28/08 05:45 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Thanks, everyone, for posting. Lots of good thoughts here. I'm glad some of you can commiserate with where I'm coming from.

The reality is, though, we do not all feel the same. We can't even all agree on what "rude" is!

wavelength, I hope you're still out there, I have some questions for you.

 Quote:
Originally posted by wavelength:
Jeanne W:
I believe that the title of this thread creates a false dichotomy. It implies that either we follow this particular notion of politeness, OR, we are rude and uncivilized... with no other options.

I believe that the "socially acceptable norm" you refer to is actually a particularly American norm, and is not universal. For example, the French are often considered by Americans to be overly opinionated and derisive in their expression. But they just have a different way of discussing ideas... one which I happen to admire, and which is conducive to intellectual exchange. [/b]
wavelength: You make some valid and interesting points. Certain things that are socially acceptable in one country or culture are certainly not going to be universally accepted in all others. I'm hoping you will explain more about the differences between how Americans and French people discuss ideas. And your views on that.

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133531 - 02/29/08 12:18 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
a bunch of little kids (chronologically or emotionally) attacked him for making claims that, I would guess, were true.

His reactions were appropriate given that (presumed) circumstance. I certainly never got the impression that his maturity level was the main problem in those threads.

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#1133532 - 03/02/08 02:32 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Jean, I can't say I've got it all figured out. And perhaps my idea about the French is an over-generalization. But it seems to me that out of my friends and family from France, most don't hold back from saying something like "that's ridiculous," or to snort derisively when discussing art or anything intellectual. They might say "that music is trash" if they don't like it, but it is not to be taken as a personal affront. I don't mean to single out France... If we were to listen in on, say, an Italian family eating dinner, it's likely that it would sound to us like they were fighting even if they weren't.

My own family argues and is opinionated. It terrified my poor fiance at first. To her, the word "argument" was synonymous with "fight". Some people think my mother is rude, and others admire her for her outspoken directness. (Now you're thinking... this guy is hopeless... even his mother is rude! :lol: )

In general, I've found that most of the artists and intellectuals whom I admire tend to be socially abrasive (or are considered to be by many people). These are the people I find most interesting.

But really, I agree with you that we should be more polite. It's just the idea of enforcing some notion of politeness-- in a forum which discusses something as important as piano music-- which bothers me. It seems guaranteed to exclude the very people from whom I want to hear.

Well, that's more than I intended to write on this. Time to get back to the piano. \:\)

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#1133533 - 03/02/08 03:17 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"If we were to listen in on, say, an Italian family eating dinner, it's likely that it would sound to us like they were fighting even if they weren't".

You would think that one or more (according to the number of guest) divorces ("separations" for you Catholics out there) are going to be filed tomorrow; that brothers will never ever speak to each other again; that the generation gap has reached a level which makes all kind of communication impossible.
And you would show, by thinking this, that you are not Italian... \:\)

But mind: all this happens within family or close friends; among people who love each other, or esteem each other enough to be able to bear the heat, and only IF they BOTH agree on such rules of communication (don't worry: their behaviour shows it soon enough....).

But, importantly, it does NOT happen on the internet; on the internet you are generally speaking expected to show the same degree of politeness that you would show to acquaintances, to people that are not part of your inner circle.

And mind, after allowing for the absence of the politically correct tosh so typical of american communication ("I am not sure I agree" is one of my favourites: speak your mind, for God's sake! ;\) ) if you repeatedly insult your opponent you get easily banned even from an Italian forum and not many people wil regret you.

Yes, an Italian will not have any problem in saying "tosh" to an opinion you have expressed on the internet.
But if he says that you're a little child, well then it's different because it's not about an idea but about a person, and this never gets lost in Italy, where people are very emotional about ideas, but you don't touch them as people or, to say it with the movie, there will be blood..... ;\)

Jokes besides, you simply are not allowed to get personal with people with whom you do not have a personal relationship which is close enough to allow you to do so.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1133534 - 03/02/08 03:20 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
 Quote:
Originally posted by wavelength:
Jean, I can't say I've got it all figured out. And perhaps my idea about the French is an over-generalization. But it seems to me that out of my friends and family from France, most don't hold back from saying something like "that's ridiculous," or to snort derisively when discussing art or anything intellectual. They might say "that music is trash" if they don't like it, but it is not to be taken as a personal affront. I don't mean to single out France... If we were to listen in on, say, an Italian family eating dinner, it's likely that it would sound to us like they were fighting even if they weren't.

My own family argues and is opinionated. It terrified my poor fiance at first. To her, the word "argument" was synonymous with "fight". Some people think my mother is rude, and others admire her for her outspoken directness. (Now you're thinking... this guy is hopeless... even his mother is rude! :lol: )

In general, I've found that most of the artists and intellectuals whom I admire tend to be socially abrasive (or are considered to be by many people). These are the people I find most interesting.

But really, I agree with you that we should be more polite. It's just the idea of enforcing some notion of politeness-- in a forum which discusses something as important as piano music-- which bothers me. It seems guaranteed to exclude the very people from whom I want to hear.
[/b]
Well said.

We end up expelling the artistic geniuses from this forum and are left with the polite ordinary.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1133535 - 03/02/08 04:06 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Isn't this lovely. Now we have ethnic stereotypes, religious aspersions and nationalistic prejudice.... On a thread about civility...on a piano group.

I think this may actually be funny.

However, I do feel bad for the real artistic geniuses of the world, who have such things done by others in their name... or something. Reminds me of a Joan Jett song...

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#1133536 - 03/02/08 04:41 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
^ ...add snide sarcasm to that list. Yes, just lovely, i agree! \:\) Thanks for your meaningful contribution to our discussion of cultural differences-- I'm glad I took the time to read it. \:\)

I think Joan Jett is a genius, too.

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#1133537 - 03/03/08 05:22 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
redcard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 28
All in all, if you think we have a problem here with civility, please don't look into other forums online. We're mild compared to most.

\:\)

Don't worry, be happy.

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#1133538 - 03/03/08 05:50 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
The stifling of intellectual exchange.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1133539 - 03/05/08 06:06 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
 Quote:
Originally posted by wavelength:
...But really, I agree with you that we should be more polite. It's just the idea of enforcing some notion of politeness-- in a forum which discusses something as important as piano music-- which bothers me. It seems guaranteed to exclude the very people from whom I want to hear.

[/b]
Thanks for posting back wavelength. I appreciate it and understand and commiserate with what you say.

If those who possess great knowledge, talent, expertise, most often fail to conduct themselves in what is generally accepted by some (most?)as a civil manner - that's troubling, at least to me, and, yes, it's a loss.

If we are talking about having a separate set of rules for the elite, that, too is troubling.

I am not challenging you or anyone, exactly, with that last question. I am just thinking hard about this issue.

Are there PW members at the level you speak of that contribute to discussions without being blatantly offensive?

I guess I'm wondering now how many PW members who fit into the "elite" category have been driven off PW? No need to name the PW member, but can anyone offer an estimate of numbers? How many and over how many years?

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133540 - 03/05/08 06:22 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
...on the internet you are generally speaking expected to show the same degree of politeness that you would show to acquaintances, to people that are not part of your inner circle.

[/b]
That's a good point, Innominato. I certainly have been guilty of saying some nasty things my own self (opinions are opinions, after all \:D ) but those are not the kinds of things I would post on a public internet forum, where others could get hurt and angry.

I guess that has something to do with knowing what things we can express in our inner circles without fear of offending anyone - knowing where and when such talk is and is not generally acceptable and hurtful to others - and caring about others.

Something else I've been thinking about that pertains to this - people have different levels of sensitivity. Some of us here on PW may read someone's comments and think "MAN, THAT'S RUDE!" but just keep going and think not much about it - be able to tune it out. Others of us have a very hard time with stuff like that, we get REALLY angry and it sticks in our craw.

Thanks to everyone who has joined this discussion. It's been going on for a while and is getting kind of "old", but if anyone has something more to contribute, I hope you'll post, no matter what side your on. I think it helps for us to try to understand each other a little better.

\:\)

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133541 - 03/06/08 09:40 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/27/07
Posts: 1645
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I thought this was an amusing cartoon video called How to Behave on an Internet Forum . I've you've hung around forums long enough, you should be able to recognize each of the points being made.

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#1133542 - 03/07/08 12:27 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeanne W:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
...on the internet you are generally speaking expected to show the same degree of politeness that you would show to acquaintances, to people that are not part of your inner circle.

[/b]
That's a good point, Innominato. I certainly have been guilty of saying some nasty things my own self (opinions are opinions, after all \:D ) but those are not the kinds of things I would post on a public internet forum, where others could get hurt and angry.

I guess that has something to do with knowing what things we can express in our inner circles without fear of offending anyone - knowing where and when such talk is and is not generally acceptable and hurtful to others - and caring about others.

Something else I've been thinking about that pertains to this - people have different levels of sensitivity. Some of us here on PW may read someone's comments and think "MAN, THAT'S RUDE!" but just keep going and think not much about it - be able to tune it out. Others of us have a very hard time with stuff like that, we get REALLY angry and it sticks in our craw.

Thanks to everyone who has joined this discussion. It's been going on for a while and is getting kind of "old", but if anyone has something more to contribute, I hope you'll post, no matter what side your on. I think it helps for us to try to understand each other a little better.

\:\)

Jeanne W [/b]
It never gets acknowledged in anything other than a scornful way, but a bit of edginess is more interesting than silky smooth social etiquette, if more potentially offensive. This is a facet of human nature that won't be going anywhere anytime soon. I don't think it's a shameful thing.

Each social circle can ostracize as they see fit. Some do so more easily and gladly than others. ("I would never invite that person to a dinner party!" is a pretty common thing for this sort to say.)

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#1133543 - 03/07/08 05:30 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I've never felt the need to criticize a member here related to any question of music.

This person in question has been especially accurate in defining the way of 'playing by ear'is done, in the true meaning of the term. He responded to my explanation perfectly. This required a lot of piano understanding, that I have not come across on this website before.

His film of him playing convinced me of his talent.

Plain speaking is not always correctly understood. I for one like it and can take it usually.

Swingal

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#1133544 - 03/07/08 05:47 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horace:
[QUOTE]It never gets acknowledged in anything other than a scornful way, but a bit of edginess is more interesting than silky smooth social etiquette, if more potentially offensive. This is a facet of human nature that won't be going anywhere anytime soon. I don't think it's a shameful thing. [/b]
 Quote:
Originally posted by Swingal:
[QUOTE]
...Plain speaking is not always correctly understood. I for one like it and can take it usually." [/b]
Hi, Horace, Swingal, thanks for posting. Couple of questions for you, if you're still around these parts.

Horace: I enjoy a good debate with a bit of sparring myself. Talking back and forth challenging each other and explaining one's point of views makes for an interesting discussion. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, though. Can you explain what you mean by or give us an example of what you consider "a bit of edginess"?

Hi, Swingal. I have the same kind of question about what you said. Can you explain what you mean by "plain speaking" or give us an example of it?

And now a question for you both. What kinds of talk would you consider to be unnacceptable on a public discussion forum?

Hey, I guess I'm challenging you guys, but I hope it's coming across as intended - in a civilized, respectful way. \:D

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133545 - 03/13/08 02:57 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeanne W:

Horace: I enjoy a good debate with a bit of sparring myself. Talking back and forth challenging each other and explaining one's point of views makes for an interesting discussion. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, though. Can you explain what you mean by or give us an example of what you consider "a bit of edginess"?
[/b]
Well, for instance, I thought it was appropriate when whats-his-name (the guy that was kicked off who started this whole line of discussion), when his assertions about his ability were challenged, told his attackers to either be quiet or bet something meaningful that he can't. But I think that sort of attitude is very disconcerting to some.

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#1133546 - 03/24/08 08:38 PM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Hi, Horace:

I've been thinking off and on about what you said. I agree with you, up to a point.

As I recall, I thought Disciple was treated harshly when he was being challenged. And I don't find anything offensive about someone challenging others by proposing a "bet". I think things escalated though and got out of hand and eventually went over the line. That's my recollection of it.

I wish we could all get along with one another.

Thanks for posting.

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000

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#1133547 - 03/25/08 04:23 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
ktom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 212
Loc: Somerset UK
Its a bit boring now he's gone, though, isn't it?
_________________________
Steinway K - Kurzweil PC 88(wrecked and sold for spares) - Yamaha S90 - rhodes 760 - korg wavestation- Hammond XK1 etc..

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#1133548 - 03/25/08 08:58 AM Re: A Civilized, Respectful PW or an Offensive, Out of Control PW?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
Dear Jeanne W.

Sorry to be so long in answering your question. I have been up to all sorts of fun and games like enjoying my 80th Birthday. Missing the topic, as I thought it had run its course. And then Easter Holidays and relatives visiting.

Plain Speaking,to me means telling the truth and being 100% genuine in the content. I dislike lies and signs of envy,for whatever reason the writer may have. Usually a lack of self belief.

Some parts of England have more plain speaking than others, as a general trend. 'Bluntness' maybe another way of describing such language.

Politicians are often skilled at making statements which contain a great deal of misleading remarks and far from plain speaking.

I firmly believe that blatant rudeness, swearing and other forms of abuse on Web-sites language, is 'not on' indeed it shows a lack of respect to someone they have never met.

I have no great experience of the trends in the U.S. I have spent far too shorter time in your country. Basically, New York, New England and New Orleans.

As I did say, 'Disciple' formed a very precise definition of my way of piano playing by ear, which was only the second time anyone has. I also saw proof of his ability by a 'youtube' example.

I hope this helps you see what my meaning of Plain Speaking is or as we sometimes say Plain English.

Kind regards,

Alan (swingal)

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