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swingal,

From what I read about Makoto Ozone, he did not have classical training growing up.. he played mostly by ear. It's only much later in his life that he started studying classical music seriously.

I also read about how oscar peterson had classical lessons from his sister, but his ears were so good that he picked up most of the music by ear.


Janicklv

I think the great classical composers we know all transcribed, they had excellent ears.. its funny how many of the college students can play very demanding repritore, and yet at the same time they have hard time learning simple pop songs by ear. Not only that, a lot of people seem to play the pieces and they don't seem to really know what is going on as a composition.

I do find something strange about how piano is taught.. it seems a little unbalanced, but considering the fact that classical pianists practice 5-8 hrs a day.. maybe its important that they are that specialized.

I agree with RafaelSF's pix of Nat Cole

Nat "King" Cole simplistic??!! How can that assessment appear in the same sentence as "he captured the essence of voicing, pacing, comping, et al."? Try playing through his version of "Indiana" or "The Man on the Little White Keys". Marvels of economy? Yes. Simplistic? Nope. The same applies to Thelonious Monk.

Which story is correct?

The strongest similarities between classical and jazz piano are their similar, general pedagogy, they're both played on pianos, and the materials for general musical construction are very similar, the same 12 tones, the same gravitational tendencies of their 12 tone system, etc.
The approach is where you'll find the biggest difference. What makes them nothing alike is the differing premise in which the classical and jazz pianist approaches the piano. Their vastly different purposes that make jazz and classical piano polar opposites.
Classical pianists are sinlgemindedly dedicated to "play the heads" of others. They are selfless, their main goals to reproduce the music of whose compositions they study and perform.
Jazz pianists should be singlemindedly dedicated to play "thier own head". They should be selfish in their pursuit of id-driven (id, as in bringing the subconscious thoughts to the surface and then as sound in the air) communication, with themselves and others.
Classical players are apt to play regimentedly practiced pieces perfectly, with nary a thought, their training doing the performing.
Jazz players should strive to exhibit spontaneity, musical ideas building as they play in a feedback type of loop, each idea giving rise to more music, the jazz pianist must be present consciously in the creation at all times.
Technically, the technique of a jazz player must be maleable and open to fingerings that would be quite unorthodix to the clasical players, because spontaneous lines may not fall easily into the classically trained, Hanon-Czerny trained hand.

Also I think when jazz musicians play classical pieces, their main goal is to understand the music as a composition and draw ideas for their improvisation, whereas classical musician's focus is in "perfecting the piece". I don't want to say they are two different worlds, but there is a big difference between them.

I met so many competent classically-trained musicians who just couldn't improvise. I asked them to just freely play whatever came to them with no harmonic/rhythmic context, and they just couldn't. they just don't know what that means..they kept on asking me what to do.

Pretty close. Classical pianists play by musical analysis then muscular memory and rote, whereby successful jazz-improvising pianists play by instinctual ingraining.
Instant composition, played in the moment (the highest form of jazz improv.) never occurs via rote and muscular memory. The engine is always revving, never idling.

Some jazz pianists were never trained at all. They played by ear and had the ability to memorize the piece and play it in their own style and as jazz, often.

I never had any lessons though I took my young sister to the teacher near where we lived and sat there listening. When we got home I could remember the piece and help her when she went wrong all by ear. I never learned to play by the score nor could I read it. I started when about 4 and my mother showed me how to pick out a tune, she was quite proficient at pure ear only playing.

It is a matter of memorizing the 12 notes and their sounds and playing improvisations based on the song in the subconscious memory. Not an over night, easy success story but many years of constant practice.

Erroll Garner made a complete career of playing completely based on the above means.

I just look at the piano keyboard and each key has its sound.

swingal

Some jazz pianists were never trained at all. They played by ear and had the ability to memorize the piece and play it in their own style and as jazz, often.

I never had any lessons though I took my young sister to the teacher near where we lived and sat there listening. When we got home I could remember the piece and help her when she went wrong all by ear. I never learned to play by the score nor could I read it. I started when about 4 and my mother showed me how to pick out a tune, she was quite proficient at pure ear only playing.

It is a matter of memorizing the 12 notes and their sounds and playing improvisations based on the song in the subconscious memory. Not an over night, easy success story but many years of constant practice.

Erroll Garner made a complete career of playing completely based on the above means.

I just look at the piano keyboard and each key has its sound.

swingal

On the matter of Art Tatum may I suggest you visit WIKIPEDIA and type in Art Tatum. They write a very clear history of Art's life.

Many of the great musicians of our recall seem to have had a hard time. How sad isn't it ?

swingal

swingal,

That is very true about a lot of the older musicians, I know Chet Baker couldn't read music, and people like stan getz is more into following their ears than charts.

But I think the trends have changed since then, a lot of people have classical training, and jazz is taught in more of a formal setting.. most of us were taught to use abersold rather than follow our ears. .and a lot of older musicians are not happy about that because that is not how they learned. It's an interesting dilemma, and in some ways I like the ear approach better.

I think you don't have to care with that nowadays, just learn the piano and try to be versatile...

Topic: Best jazz pianist *not* classically trained.

To stick to the subject precisely Erroll Garner is tops in my opinion. Not only was he non trained but his style was unique and very hard to copy. In fact I have never heard anyone play like him.

A gem and a true ear player in all aspects of jazz. I play his DVD and other tapes very frequently. I have met him and the world was at a great loss when he passed away at a very young age just like Fats and others too. The jazz lifestyle is very hard on health I think.

swingal

Erroll Garner was a genius.