Hi Guys,

I'm preparing for a Grade 6 exam (Rockschool) and one of the scales in the Diminished Scale.

To be honest, that scale left me a little dumb-founded. My ears weren't at all used to it and, as an 8 note scale, the fingerings weren't all that obvious (thankfully there are only 3 actual dim scales to learn).

Anyway, do any of you jazz players make regular use of the diminished scale? When you first started exploring it, did it take a while for your fingers and ears to get comfortable with it?

I'm reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book at the moment (it's taken me 4 months so far but I'm enjoying it) so I'm looking forward to reading what he has to say in the Reharonisation chapters.

Em ... sorry for the semi-pointless posting ... just interesting in hearing any points-of-view ... :-)

Rob.

I don't use it much, at least not consciously. All my teachers seemed to be crazy about it, so I spent a good deal of time trying to incorporate it into my playing, but it doesn't really do much for my ears. I think of it as an interesting theoretical construct, with its symmetry and its diminished substitution possibilities.

I guess I use it on a fully diminished 7 chord, but usually those don't last enough to get more than a few notes in. And I'm inclined to think chordally at that point. I almost never use it as a Dominant chord (b9, #9, #11). Not explicitly. I guess there must be times when I want to voice a dominant (#9) chord while playing a natural 13 in the melody, but prefer the b13 if I have a choice (and I usually do).

Some cats seem to use wherever they can. Like on the first chord of Caravan, C7(b9). Sure, that's fine. I prefer the 5th mode of harmonic minor ("spanish phrygian"). So, yeah, I guess I use it harmonically when comping for horn players.

It's likely that my aversion to it is my own shortcoming. My town has a small jazz scene and tends to export musicians to NYC, so there's not alot of external pressure to expand my vocabulary here. And usually I'm playing as a bandleader/composer, so I play what I want

Thanks for the very frank reply, Wavelength!! Actually, it's exactly the sort of reply I was hoping to get. Some interesting insight into how it can be used while suggesting honestly that it's not the be-all-and-end-all of jazz.

Thanks again and best wishes with the band.

Rob.

Rob, I use it on every tune. I practice playing diminished scales as runs. I use it as the basis for jazz voicings especially to substitute dominants. I use it as a scale choice for dominants.

It's very important in jazz. Maybe hardly so in Rock.

What, pray tell, is a diminished scale? I wonder whether I studied it under a different name (did my exam a few months ago), or is it strictly a jazz thing?

A diminished scale is alternating whole steps and half steps.

And every other note would constitute a diminished chord which is distinguished by a symmetrical pattern where every note is a minor third apart.

For example: B dim 7 is
B D F G#

Now you can loop this in sequence and the
pattern is symmetrical at every point

B D F G#
D F G# B
F G# B D
G# B D F

They're all the same B diminished 7 chord in different inversions. Likewise they can be called the D, F, or G# diminished chord since they have the identical notes.

Thanks, Jazwee. It seems the RCM did cover it, but called it "octatonic". There was no explanation - just one of numerous new scales they incorporated recently. So it is the properties of the dim 7 chords that give it certain musical properties for improvising and composing, plus a certain sound, I suppose? All I have in my theory book is: appears in music of some 19th century Russian composers, esp. Rimsky-Korsakov. 20th centyr, Scriabin, Stranvinsky, Bartok. "It is also used in jazz".

So now I know. Your explanation comes into my growing collection of notes. Thanks.

I think for me the attraction of symmetric partitions is the possibility of thinking of them as combinations of other things in many different ways. This gives them a sort of convenient malleability, physically and aurally, during improvisation. Their use must go back at least to Liszt, as Feux Follets is full of them; the opening run, for example, is just a twisted diminished scale figure. The use of symmetric figures is probably what gives this piece its delightful character.

I don't know much about jazz but I suspect people use them there for precisely the same reason.

Here's Feux Follets:
score:
http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/dlpage_new.cfm?composition_id=1655

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EjhP_sKNYw

That's beautiful!
The diminished stuff starts in bar 7 (the initial ascending line is chromatic).

Rob, please don't take my first reply as an excuse to ignore the scale. Many accomplished players use it all the time.

This thread is making me want to revisit the scale. I would love to hear more specific instances of this scale used in jazz solos. Can anyone suggest recordings? Maybe even point out specific parts of a solo?

Mark Levine refers to two ways to sequence the notes in diminished scales: they can start whole step-half step, or start half step-whole step. He seems to prefer the latter.

But technically, a dimished scale begins whole step-half step.

A C diminished scale is
C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B.

However, jazz musicians found that over a C7b9 chord a Db diminished scale (starting whole step-half step) worked perfectly.

If you start the same scale on C instead of Db it begins with half step-whole step, so for convenience instead of calling it a Db diminished scale they began calling it a half step-whole step C diminished scale.

As a jazz pianist, I find diminished scales among the easiest scales to play. They can all be played with just the thumb and first two fingers.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your takes on Diminshed Harmony.

Wavelength ... Yeh, to be honest, I did kinda "reprioritise" the diminished scale after reading (reinterpreting) your first mail. But between your follow-up mail and the others, it looks like I really should spend a little time getting to know the scale.

Fatar88 ... Thanks for pointing out that the scale can be played with the thumb+2 fingers. Is that on both the left and right hand?

Thanks for the links and thoughts, Guys !!

Rob.

Rob: Congratulations on GR 6. You must be getting to be a good player. That stuff is not so easy. I started teaching Rockschool and have 15 students going for exams in June. The course is so very well programmed.
The diminished scale has many great things going for it.
On a diminished chord you can do scale runs instead of just arpeggio's.
You can build extensions onto the diminished chord ie.- play a C diminished in the LH. C Eb Gb A.
You can build extensions to the chord by using the scale notes that are a whole step above these chord tones. You will end up playing a D dimininished in the RH against the C dim in the LH -D F Ab B
Nice Fat chord. Notice that you are playing all the notes in the C diminished scale at the same time.
You can use the scale to create patterns for improvising. How about a turn? Play a c diminished in the LH. For a RH fill, play a turn starting on a D an octave higher than the C in you LH diminished. Play DCBC. Now move up to F and play the same pattern FEbDEb .Move up and start on Ab Ab Gb F Gb. Finallly start on B A G# A. Great fill if you are spending a full measure on a diminished chord.

If you play a C7 in the LH and play a C# diminished scale in the RH you get some great sounds.
This scale can be used to derive some great sounding poly chords. Play a C tritone in the LH E-Bb below middle C. In the RH play an Eb chord in Root position. This creates a C #9 chord.
OR
play the LH tritone and play a F# triad in the RH. Now you are playing C7 b9 #11.
or
play the LH tritone and play an A chord against it. This creates a
C 13 b9
How is this usefull? If you are harmonizing a RH melody against a C7 chord and the melody note is Eb G or Bb you can add 2 notes from the Eb triad below the melody and get a nice extented voicing.
If the melody note is C# F# or Bb add 2 notes from the F# chord below the melody note.
If the melody note is A C# or E add 2 notes from the A chord below the melody note.

There are 2 more poly chords you can use that are not derived from the Dominant scale. Keep a C tritone in the LH. . You can play a D triad against it making a C13 #11
or
Play a C tritone in the LH and play an Ab chord creating a C b13 #9.

That ought to take a while to digest. It is not easy stuff. I would recommend Voicings for Jazz Keyboard by Frank Mantooth for a detailed explanation of polychords.

Thanks for these posts guys - this is very interesting and giving me some stuff to play around with! kt

Hi Pete,

RE Rockschool ... To be honest, Pete, I'm just preparing for the exam; things could still go pear-shaped on me but I'll do everything I can to get through it. I agree with you about the course, the material is excellent. Some additional notes about each tune would be beneficial though. I don't really understand the theory behind "Fred's Rose" for example but I'm taking as much from it as I can.

Diminished Harmony ... Thanks for taking the time to post all that info. I'll have to sit down and work through it at my piano (which I'll do tonight). I'll say no more for now until I've disected your post ... !!

Thanks again Pete. Hope they all your students fly the exams ... !!!

Rob.

Sometimes I use the diminished scale when I improvise on a dominant seventh chord or on a diminished chord.
For example I play this scale:

C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb on a C7 (dominant chord) or C7b9.

However I suggest to practice a lot to understand how to use it melodically.

I don't pretend to know much about music, but different diminished scales can be combined to form multi-harmonic aggregates/ Both C# diminished and interlaced C diminished scales can be combined beautifully within progression moving from C7 (5) to F(1). You can even extend that to include the D diminshed series in the harmonic movement movment from the II tonality (G minor 7) to 5 to 1 series as a substitute. All three diminished scales interlock wonderfully, melodically and harmonically if you carefully control the voice leading and harmonic direction. I don't know much, but I'm prety sure of that.
Diminished also combines well with relative melodic minor in chord substitute, 5-1 and 2-5-1 turnarounds.

A bit over my head, but I'm interested. Could you elaborate at a more basic level, or provide concrete example?

Thanks,

Ed

Thanks BJones, for an input that will cause me to sit down at the piano and work out what you mean.. these are the posts that make it worth coming here!
I must say, in the nicest possible way, that your statement that you do not pretend to know much about music makes an interesting juxtaposition with your reference to multi-harmonic aggregates. One might read this to mean that you really do[/b] know much about music, which does appear to be the case, despite you subsequent denial:-) This comment is intended only to encourage further interesting posts, and is in no way negative!!

Sure, you can.

You can even use whatever scale You want on a chord, even a chromatic scale on a Major seventh chord.
But the concept is NOT so easy.

You have to use the scale you like in the right way, solving tensions you create whit that scale.

There is no such thing as dissonance in jazz. Any combination of notes can be played together. Any harmonies, even tritones apart can be combined beautifully, if your logic in voice leading is musical. Point is, the end result, the resting point is the byproduct of how you got there and where you're going.
I can play a B major 7th chord or arpeggio in the right hand against an F major 9th in the left and it can sound beautiful or ugly, dependent on the path the individual notes took that got me to that final resting point.
There's a huge difference between contrived and logical end dissonance and it's the way the player maintains control over his elements. For instance, you can use the C# diminished scale over a c7th tonality resolving to F maj, maybe the descending notes in the right hand F# E D# C# for the 2nd and 3rd beat of the c7 chord resolving to F (c7 #11) and one would expect the resolve of that litle melodic line to be C on the F chord downbeat. BUT, if your line descends to B (aha!) and bypasses the C, you not only create an intresting point of melodic resolution but have incorporated the first 5 notes of a B scale (f# E D# C# B played over the c7 to F change. That opens up an entire new harmonic counterpoint based on #11 (superimposed major scales a fifth apart) derived by the use of the b2 diminished scale relative to the V7 chord as the bridge.
These are sounds that must be placed in your mind, because trying to do this type of math at the piano is too cumbersome at any kind of decent tempo. These sounds and possibilities must become part of your language to use them properly and spntaneously otherwise you wind up playing the same thing every time.

BJones, I agree.

I base my melodic improvisations on simple concepts:
I can play whatever note I want on whatever chord, but I have to solve the tensions I create and I have to create tensions otherwise my music is too much static, monotone, boring.

Music is a balance between tension and rest, dissonance and consonance, inside and outside.

That's all.

You can create this in whatever way you want with whatever scale or pattern or chord or superimposition.

But if there are too much tensions (above all not solved) is bad.
If there is too much rest and consonance can be also bad.