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#1137899 - 11/28/05 09:39 PM Re: How to play by ear?
sirch59 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 49
Actually, he wrote a book some time ago where he wrote down his course. So if you do some searching, you might find a used copy somewhere...

Do you know the name of the book?
I'd be very interested in finding
a copy.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1137900 - 11/28/05 10:58 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
"Piano Magic: The Secrets of Playing By Ear"

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#1137901 - 11/28/05 11:51 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Joel Rosenberger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/05
Posts: 20
Loc: NY
I'm convinced that traditional piano lessons place far to much emphasis on hand-eye coordination... matching up the notes on the page with the keys on the keyboard. Many pianists could benefit from some training in hand-ear coordination, being able to match the music in your head with patterns of keys on the keyboard. Unfortunately, it's usually not until college-level music theory courses (i.e. aural perception) that a student even learns to recognize musical patterns by ear.
I think Suzuki may have had the right idea... perhaps there is something to be said for a student that learns to play an instrument first, then read music later; much like a child learns to speak before learning to read.
_________________________
Joel
Piano. Improvised. Invented. Fresh.
Currently working on: arranging O Sacred Head Now Wounded
Listen on Reverb Nation
Yamaha S90XS/Ivory/Ableton Live

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#1137902 - 11/29/05 03:53 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
 Quote:
You should be happy with your progress,
I heard your stuff and it's inspiring.

You're like a flashing neon lighted billboard
on steriods with this PM program aren't you?
Hells Bells, Mike couldn't pay an ad agency
enough for the amount of FREE advertising you've
provided for PM! ;-)
right, thats it sirch!

ya got me goin' now...I'm gonna ask for image rights!


Lee \:D
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137903 - 11/29/05 06:52 AM Re: How to play by ear?
sirch59 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 49
Bob,
Thanks, everything I've found so far leads
right to the PM site. I'm not sure he sells
this book as a stand alone? I might go ask him.

Thanks again...

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#1137904 - 11/29/05 10:57 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
"I'm not sure he sells this book as a stand alone?"

No, I think it was self-published and he used it in a community college course for some years. But, since he went through several thousand of them, you might find one through a used book store that is a member of a used book network.

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#1137905 - 11/29/05 01:06 PM Re: How to play by ear?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
Lee,

Thank you for your help on the subject of playing by ear. I have visited the pianomagic website and saw the first video clip and yours. I am impressed with the method Mike uses and can see it being very beneficial.

However, after such a long time of playing by ear I have not got a problem with identifying the sound and the correct keys to press or chords to play. My main task is to get the playing constantly improving in the area of fingering and the dexterity required for the more complicated passages and runs. Scales for example, that have to be precise and fit in, timewise, with the harmony as jazz requires. I always play with a melody that does not deviate very far from the composed tune. I like my jazz that way. I therefor copy artists such as Teddy Wilson, Jess Stacey, Fats Waller and just concentrate of doing as perfect a job as I can. But I'm never satisfied though I get a lot of pleasure from the instrument. I have never lost the urge to play the piano now for some 70 years.

I watched an old tape of George Shearing the other night made by the BBC2 some years ago, with a whole life history of his wonderful playing. As you know he was blind from birth. He did have formal classical teaching by a special teacher for the blind and I never fail to be overwhelmed by his extreme ability.

My final advice is that practice is the most single positive thing that will create the biggest step up in mastering the keyboard and all it's magnificent sounds and vibrations.

I doubt if any genuine pianist is ever satisfied with his ability, though some reached heights that the rest of us can only dream of.And that includes by ear playing.

Hope you stick at it and always push your self to reach something higher.

How many hours do you spend practicing Lee?

The more the better I find

Regards,

Alan

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#1137906 - 11/29/05 03:42 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Alan

I am absolutely sure you don't need pianomagic...heck you've been playing by ear for years! I just thought you would have enjoyed chatting with people who know where you are coming from. To be honet I think we would have learned more from you than you from us ;\) ...but, one day maybe?

George Shearing is one of my dads favourite pianists...darn, I wish I'd have caught that T.V. programme. Amazing what these blind pianists can achieve!...Your kind of jazz sounds exactly what I like (not too whacky, just nice re-harmonizations and sticking more or less with the melody ) I want to be able to do it...but, as I can't read music most of the lessons I see on the net are too hard for me and I'm too lazy to perservere (I may have to pick your brains on the way to do it by ear...one day)

 Quote:
How many hours do you spend practicing Lee?
How much do I practise? I practise almost every day, on a good day I can squeeze 2, 3 maybe 4 hours in (if the gym is quiet!) on a normal day at least an hour...to be honest I can't get emough, if I had the time I'd play for 37 hours every day! (there is a standing joke at pianomagic forums that I do indeed get that many hours in each day!..who knows? ;\) )

 Quote:
The more the better I find
I couldn't agree more \:\)

Mike likes to think of practise time as being fun (playtime) he believes in working with what you know and have learned to do (i.e.working within your comfort zone until you have the "free mind space" and body co-ordination to move onto the next level) and it seems to work wonderfully...he also has a great saying (which to me is the essence of his method)... "If its fun it will be done"

Trouble is I'm now a "piano-holic"!


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137907 - 11/30/05 02:59 AM Re: How to play by ear?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
Lee,

Just a quickie. I think your enthusiasm is super and will carry you forward so well. We all started in the same position and it's so gratifing to feel you have gained ground every time you play.

Just remember, all the sounds are in that row of 88 notes. All you have to do is hit the right ones. Seriously, it is the connection between the brain subconscious and the keys. You get to the point where you know (in the brain) before you hit a key or chord what sound it will produce. Or you will do with practice. Just as a singer or a trumpet player knows how to produce a certain sound.

When you play a chord in key of C Major as I think you were. Using three notes. Try just dropping the first note one semitone and see what the harmony is it produces.

Just fiddle around and leave your brain to see if the harmony sounds correct. Sort of modulation?

I know no theory except what the notes are all called.

Good luck,

Alan

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#1137908 - 11/30/05 07:31 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi Alan

 Quote:

swingal says:-
You get to the point where you know (in the brain) before you hit a key or chord what sound it will produce. Or you will do with practice. Just as a singer or a trumpet player knows how to produce a certain sound.
Yes, yes...I am starting to do thst sort of stuff myself now and have already touched on it briefly in another thread :-
 Quote:

Seaside_Lee says

Melody has always been the toughie for me...but, I am now starting to find that the "inner me" is starting to direct those fingers just where they want to go (which to be honest kinda freeks me out at times!...theres somebody in there? )
its soo exciting isn't it?

 Quote:
When you play a chord in key of C Major as I think you were. Using three notes. Try just dropping the first note one semitone and see what the harmony is it produces.
By "first note"? is that the bass note of the left hand chord or the top note?... or are you referring to chords in the right hand?

thanks


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137909 - 12/01/05 09:04 AM Re: How to play by ear?
sirch59 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 49
By "first note"? is that the bass note of
the left hand chord or the top note?...
or are you referring to chords in the right
hand?


Lee, I believe that's what Swingal is saying. Bass note of the left hand, because remember You're doing octave melody in the right most of the time.
(Not to say you couldn't do it in the right also.)

There is a completely different "feel" between MAJOR and MINOR 7th. Or I could say there is a different feel between C note and B note in the key of C.
People may call it a Major 7th in theory, you would call it "Airy." For goodness sakes, please don't drop down to Bb, then life would completely change as you know it, and maybe the KEY too!! ;-)

Just by droping that one note you're getting
into another realm of music...But forget all that, from what I saw on that video of your playing, technically your pretty solid, and that's because YOU practice.

When Mike mentioned about your rhythm, that's
another solid thing you've got going for you,
(Most important in my book) and I don't know what rhythm problem Mike was referring too, but not any people obtain the internal synch clock (that's what I call it)like you have garnered, some call it a "click."

Here's why that "clock" is very important, when you missed or forgot those notes at the end of the Beatles song, NOBODY, but a truly trained intrenched musician would have known because your rhythm was so solid. And beside, we wouldn't even know it's MUSIC if ya don't miss a couple notes hear and there!

(Being a drummer, I notice these things.)

Congratulations...your practice has paid off!

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#1137910 - 12/01/05 10:37 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Howdy sirch \:\)

thanks for the reply

 Quote:
Just by droping that one note you're getting
into another realm of music...
great! that is exactly the realm of music I want to get into...if its something simple like that I'm on it...but, if I 've got to read music to get a handle on it? then (at the moment ;\) ) its a bridge too far! (maybe one day? maybe not?)

With regard to rhythm I am still having problems...infact the last 3 recordings I've sent Mike have all been a bit pants! (because of my rhythm but, I'm workin on it...though, I have to admit he's getting a lot tougher with the recordings I send him, recently)

I'm putting in the hours at the moment singing along with my playing trying to get the breathing spaces and the rhythm going at the same time...dunno why but, I'm finding it tough at the moment. I've always been a good dancer and had rhythm I just can't understand why I'm struggling so much (but, I will figure it out)

Starting to wish I'd been a drummer first too ;\) , actually one of my members at the gym is in a church band and he reckons joining a band would help with my timing (I just don't fancy getting that one past Mrs Seaside...yikes!)

all the best

Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137911 - 12/01/05 05:29 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
Bob are you doing both Piano Magic and Sudnow? Or are you combining them both?
Your insights here will be very helpful for me.

Thank you.

Also- Seaside your recording is very nice. What did you use to do it?

_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1137912 - 12/02/05 07:35 AM Re: How to play by ear?
sirch59 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 49
With regard to rhythm I am still having problems...infact the last 3 recordings I've sent Mike have all been a bit pants!

Well, I'm not sure of the British venacular "bit pants" but I can guess.

Don't worry about the rhythm it will come
just keep doing what you're doing because it's working!

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#1137913 - 12/02/05 11:10 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Hi Luis, I've set Sudnow off to the side for the time being and I'm digging into PM. What I like about PM is that I'm learning what chords to put in a song, where to put them, and why they're there. So I'm truly playing by ear! Also, it's not limited to standards.

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#1137914 - 12/02/05 11:40 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
 Quote:
Well, I'm not sure of the British venacular "bit pants" but I can guess.
Oops! sorry sirch... "a bit pants" = "a little bit garbage/poor" did you guess right?

 Quote:
Also- Seaside your recording is very nice. What did you use to do it?
Hi paret, \:\) ... quite simply I recorded out of my casio PX100's headphone socket via an audio lead into a Sony RCDW3 home CD recorder.

However, I played it on my Yamaha CLP170 (which is at home) and then took the floppy disc into work with me and played the midi back through the PX100 (sheesh does that make any sense?)


Lee

BTW I could have recorded straight out of the CLP170, but I have everything set up easier at work (the gym)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137915 - 12/02/05 11:52 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Composean Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 9
Some people are awfully good at playing by ear without even having to work at it, but for those who don't have the talent to do it really well right off the bat, I think there's hope. And although the time it takes to achieve success depends on the individual, I think playing by ear is an acquired skill achieved with practice. In my opinion, only three steps need to be followed in order to play music by ear:

1. Memorization
2. Recognition
3. Duplication

If you can memorize the sounds of certain chords and notes, recongize them in song, and duplicate those chords and notes with the proper rhythm, you could play the song by ear, right? (It may be more complicated with advanced pieces of music, but for the more basic stuff, I think it works fine.)

I can't read music. It may or may not work for you, but the three steps above work for me.

There's a certain memory game you could buy and play that may help you develop this skill. It has several colored squares that light up. Each square makes a sound when it lights up. To play, you memorize the order (or sequence) the notes are played, then press the squares in the order it gives you. Try finding one and buy it. Play the game with your eyes closed. It's the same concept: You memorize the sounds of the notes, recognize the sound when it's played, and apply that knowlege when it's your turn to play back the notes. I think it's good practice since rhythm isn't required.

Hope this helps!

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#1137916 - 12/17/05 02:11 AM Re: How to play by ear?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
sirch59

Hi, sorry, I missed a reply to your question above about which hand I was referring to on the chord modulation. It was the right hand. I would not drop to a full tone just a semi-tone. Like E G B down to Eb G B.

I hardly ever know what sequence of notes I play. I have a list of tunes/songs jazz numbers and I always list the starting note which then dictates the key for the complete piece. Inless it requires a key change along the way but that's rare.

I do a lot of play alongs with recorded stuff and some jazz does require instant key changes this is quite difficult but not used much on the older trad jazz.

Ps. If you ever get to see a video of Erroll Garner you will see how he plays around with the audience with his impromtu intro then suddenly strikes up the well known piece and the audience love that. He was a wonderfully pleasant and cheerful little man and one of lifes real treasures.

The greatest natural talent in a pianist I ever have seen.
Alan

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#1137917 - 12/17/05 06:43 AM Re: How to play by ear?
hgiles Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Charlottesville Virginia
Erroll Garner is a captivating player -- no doubt. I have the BBC DVD and have been watching it since it got here 4 months ago!!
_________________________
Haywood
-------------

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#1137918 - 12/17/05 02:10 PM Re: How to play by ear?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
Haywood, there is a book written about him called 'Erroll Garner The Most Happy Piano' by James M. Doran ISBN 0-8108-1745-4 Published 1985 It is based on his life right from the day he was born as a twin with Ernest,to the day he died.1977 of angina. There is a comprehensive Discography & Filmography and so on.

I'm very proud to have met him and seen 3 of his concerts all in England. 1960's He is a genius of jazz piano in my book and considering his total lack of theory or ability to read music this makes him a unique talent I think.

By the way I forgot to run the Video right through once as there are two sections and it's easy to think the first is the only one.

Just read your post which say's its a DVD, did you buy it in the U.S.? I wonder if its the same. Titled; 'Erroll Garner in Performance'

Happy Christmas

Alan

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#1137919 - 12/21/05 02:02 PM Re: How to play by ear?
pianocliff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Washington, DC Metro
To everyone who plays by ear. Do you sing when you play? I'm just curious. I have been trying to teach myself to sing the diatonic scale to help my ear training at home. I try to hear intervals as they would be sung in my head. If I sing a melody and then try to play it I seem to have better luck at finding the notes. I try to "hear" the notes in my head as they would be sung before I actually sing them. I feel a little silly about doing this (I'm not a singer by any stretch) but it seems to be helping. What do ya think?

~pianocliff

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#1137920 - 12/22/05 07:47 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi pianocliff

Singing?...yes,yes and yes! \:D

I would concentrate more on singing and pecking melody lines than singing scales (if I were you ;\) )

1. much more fun...to play stuff you like
2. The more you peck out the melodies the more (with time) your fingers will learn to speak the sounds you want to make.

make sense?

(I can't sing either) as long as you can hear the ups and downs in your voice thats all you need to be aware of.

regards


Lee
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137921 - 12/22/05 08:40 AM Re: How to play by ear?
pianocliff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Washington, DC Metro
cool!...I worked out the melody to "silver bells" last night doing this...right now this is about the extent of my abilities but i'm getter better...

~pianocliff

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#1137922 - 12/22/05 11:00 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
I agree, forget "ear training". How boring is that?! Play tunes! The more tunes you play, the better at playing tunes you'll get.

The melody will become easier and easier. The problem you'll run into with playing straight by ear will be figuring out what chords to play with the left hand to match the melody. This is where PianoMagic shines.

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#1137923 - 01/03/06 04:24 PM Re: How to play by ear?
pianocliff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 398
Loc: Washington, DC Metro
Bob,

What kind of chords and voicings does PM offer? I think it's a good idea, but I can already figure out simple I-IV-V chords for melodies I play by ear. Does he talk about more than just your basic I-IV-V kind of songs?

~pianocliff

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#1137924 - 01/03/06 11:17 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Bob Muir Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/03
Posts: 2653
Loc: Lakewood, WA, USA
Absolutely! If you already can identify I-IV-V, then you'll have a leg up on the rest of us noobs. ;\) Actually, as soon as you're outside of the songs were I is every other chord (like Silent Night for example), then you'll be in territory outside of I-IV-V.

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#1137925 - 01/04/06 08:23 AM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi pianocliff

I agree with Bob...I'd just like to add that pianomagic isn't going to teach you loads of fancy chord progressions!

Instead, it will help you to see why chords progress in the way they do and you'll be able to think songs through. You will learn how you can eventually use this new found ability (to think like music thinks) to create any type of popular music genre you desire to play...and importantly play it from your heart (which is a very addictive powerful thang! \:D )


regards


Lee \:\)
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137926 - 01/04/06 08:40 AM Re: How to play by ear?
hanna2222 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Hi...
I've played by ear since I was a kid. Its
always easier for me if I work with my eyes
closed.
Hearing the sound in my "inner ear" or humming
are both ways to find it. Without that inner
anchoring sound, there is nothing to guide you.
I play both by notes and ear, but playing
by ear was very helpful in me learning to compose.
And in many ways its more fun! Each has their
place.
I definitely think its a learnable skill that
will improve with practice.
Good for you for trying to play by ear. Some
musicians never risk it. Its like only driving
your car to work and never going to the beach
if you must always play with music!.
_________________________
The truest insights into a person's
character are two things:
1. How he treats people who cannot help him.
2. How he treats those who cannot
fight back.

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#1137927 - 01/04/06 04:25 PM Re: How to play by ear?
Seaside_Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 2167
Loc: Blackpool, UK
Hi hanna

 Quote:
Its
always easier for me if I work with my eyes
closed.
I've tried playing with my eyes closed but, Ive never thought of doing it when I'm working melodies out!

If that's worked for you since a child?...then I'm definitely gonna try it out with the stuff I can't work out.

That sounds like a good tip to me, I like it. \:D


thanks \:D


Lee
_________________________
Twitter: @Seaside_Lee

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#1137928 - 01/04/06 05:25 PM Re: How to play by ear?
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
Playing with the eyes closed is certainly good for the sound appreciation factor. But when I'm playing new stuff I look at the keys to decide which to play to give the sound I want. I thought that is why we play by ear using the sounds facing us on the keys and playing the correct chords and single notes as required. The keyboard is sitting there to be mastered. Practice will prove that to you. Memory playing is different.

A blind pianist is usually taught by a special teacher for them. That is also a different perspective. But the blindness, as I understand it, is capable of concentrating the senses on the music. Watch George Shearing if possible.


Alan

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