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Sometimes we discuss theory as some academic thing. But in the great times of jazz in the forties, these cats just got together and hashed things out. They would play a major seventh chord, and someone would say something like "listen to this..." as he hits the 9th and 13th of the chord. Yes, I happen to think of it is a 9th and 13th of the chord, but those cats heard it and duplicated it.

Some of these old guys are still around. I went to a Benny Golson gig and he spent a big portion of the time talking about the old days and how he and John Coltrane would work things out in his Mom's house. I've read this in books but it's good to hear it directly from the old masters.

So "ear training" and "theory" are not separate things in my mind. I use theory to remember what I hear and confirm what sounds good.

Sometimes I play some tune with a some unique chordal structure and I listen to what scale works with some chords. Then I go back and identify the scale by name. I could of course have not recalled it by name but by shape too. But recalling it by some label allows me to duplicate it in another key. So here's an example of "ear" dominating and "theory" coming later.

This is a fine line as we tend to think of theory as modes of major scales, melodic minor, etc.

But really, you can find out what sounds good to your ears and write it out for yourself as your own private theory. In the end, I bet the note selections aren't going to be far apart using ears vs. brain.

The only exceptions are probably diminished scales. I have a problem fully hearing how to apply diminished scales to improvs, especially non-chord tones. But theory here gives me the boundaries of where it fits. I think this is where the modern jazz sound comes in.

Hello Jazzwee,

I grasp your point, of course and I have no doubt that theory is the heart and soul of modern jazz compositions. A few of us have never had lessons on theory or any thing at all relating to piano playing. We started by being shown which keys to play for a given sound. This was kids stuff like three blind mice and other simple little tunes.

Probably a rare thing to do today as many more homes have digital keyboards which are in my view far easier to master.

If you learn to play by ear at an early age and do it enough you master the scale and the relative sound each key makes. You are starting to climb the ladder as a pianist.

That was what I did. My mother taught me, as that was her way of playing too. I would be about 6 or 7 then. I was exposed to music a lot because we had a gramophone and dance band music was played.

Both my parents were on the 'Stage' in musical appearances and so rhythm was in my heart from an
early childhood.

So I just kept at the piano hour after hour I played and played using memorised music to pick out popular songs of the day.

By 16 I was playing in Pubs, Bars to you in U.S.for the customers to sing to. This was during the 2nd World War and nobody worried about your age then, life was far more at risk.This was in York where I was a apprentice motor engineer.

I wonder what sort of a piano player I was but I never got chucked out.....must have been a generous public?

So I gradually understand pitch as you do by accompiament, I remember how I would force the key on the majority and bring the off key singers in with the rest.

That was a long time ago but thats how I learned to have a reasonable pitch.

Now we have modern jazz which seems to require a good knowledge of theory, not only to play it but to appreciate it. My roots are firmly in the New Orleans style and at best the Oscar Peterson style datewise.

I'm sorry to say I cannot really appreciate modern day style of jazz, I do not dislike it but it doesn't light my fire. I note the nuances and theoretical play in the compositions but cannot get the vibes to connect. Guess I'm too stuck in the past.

Alan (swingal)

Hi Al

Nail on the head Alan

That's exactly how to learn how to play by ear as an adult too...you have to start with simple stuff first

I would imagine that most "by ear players" started as kids because children will fool around with nursery rhymes much longer than adults. Adults don't always have the patience to see that working on simple melodies trains you to understand complicted melodies more easily.

And as adults we want to get to play the really good stuff first!!


regards


Lee

Alan, if you learned your relative pitch well, I think you have in essence applied theory.

In the example I gave, of a major seventh chord, I recognize the additional effect of 9th and 13th on a chord. My ear verifies it. I'm sure you recognize too the added color of the D and A notes in a C chord. My labels are theory. Your ears will arrive at the same theory.

So I'm sure you're quite a player just from ears. And you and Errol Garner will have learned theory your way. Maybe you don't want to call it theory so we'll just say it's the tendencies of harmonies. The tendency of harmony to flow a certain way is universal.

As a previous guitar player with no theory knowledge, the tendencies of harmony was already apparent to my ears so the explanation that came later just confirmed what I already heard. Thus, I understand where you are coming from.

I get the feeling though that you have perfect pitch too, Alan. Is that true? Just from your description of tones.

jazzwee, I think I was trying to make the same point you are making, but you obviously understand this much better than I do and explain it very well.

I agree with you that theory is not just something academic. It can be academic of course, but it is also very practical, basically our understanding of and ability to talk about what we are doing in music. I guess it doesn't matter if people want to call this theory or not.

I was trying to make the point (not well) that these older jazz musicians played with their intellect as well as with their ears or gut.

Matt H, I did understand that you were making that point.

Sometimes when people discuss theory vs. ear, I'm a little lost as to what constitutes theory. Is knowing what a chord it is considered theory (maj7, min7, dominant 7, diminished, augmented...)? Is knowing at least the letter name of each note on the piano considered theory?

I figured it's a basic way of communication among musicians and I don't consider it theory at all. But to a completely and solely ear based player, is there such a thing as a chord? Or is it 100% tone based with zero labeling?

I started out as an ear player and to me that meant I fully understood every basic chord and what is sounded like. To me, theory means modes, scales, and harmonic progression (discussed with labels), etc. This type of theory I did not know about when I was playing guitar. So hopefully we are all at the same level of definition when we talk about ear playing.

I personally think that it would be a disservice to oneself to not know the basic identifiers of music (notes and chords), regardless of any additional theory based knowledge. These I think are building blocks and without this basic terminology knowledge, multiple musicians cannot play together.

Yes Jazzwee I have to have absolute pitch otherwise the music would be incorrect,in error of sound. Though of course that applies usually when playing with other musicians which I don't. I play along with recorded music and can usually get the key correct.

I completely agree with you views on theory. This limits my chats with trained musicians as its all in the subconscious in my case. I can explain it only with a piano to hand. Yes my total theory is that of knowing the notes on the keyboard. Even that is a bit confusing when.Eb are the same note as D# and things like that.

Erroll Garner played in some strange keys and the bass players had a difficult time playing with him for that reason, he never cared nor knew what keys he was in. I will try and find what they were, its all in the Biography.

All the best,

Alan

swingal, you have a gift of perfect pitch so you have a fixed reference. The rest of us lowly people will have to rely on a "label" reference or it will be impossible!

I'm amazed at your description of playing by ear. You mean it at the TOTAL level. . Ear and nothing else. Isn't this quite rare?

All this time, I've understood ear playing as some level just below learning theory, but with a basic understanding of notes.

On the other hand, you can locate it on the keyboard so you have a visual reference though not by name.

I learned something new today.

I've met some people who are professional players. One was a pianist at a fancy hotel who played in the foyer. He never had formal lessons, he said he'd always relied on playing by ear and of course listening to a lot of music.

Another was an extremely good band playing and singing exactly like the original recordings. One time I requested a song for the bamd to play and supplied them some scores. They admitted that they could not read music properly(!).

I have great admiration for these musicians as they have true passion for music.

Other musicians come to mind are Yanni and Irving Berlin who also never had formal lessons.

I myself love playing by ear but could not imagine not visualizing the notes or chords in my mind.