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#1139343 - 02/06/05 09:39 PM Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Hi there. Just poking my head through the curtain from the coach section (Adult beginner's forum). I just started playing piano 6 weeks ago (49 years guitar). I'm into the Sudnow method and really love the results so far, and the promises the course makes are very seductive. I'm practicing 2+ hours per day, and am already pretty into both hand palying cool, non "Mary Had a Little Lamb" stuff, all the scales, and understanding what's going on with his Bill Evans-style voicings.

Did anyone out there launch or augment their piano playing life with the Sudnow method?

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1139344 - 02/06/05 11:20 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Alanjazz. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 84
Loc: England
Just as a matter of interest what is the Sudnow method please?

Alan

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#1139345 - 02/07/05 06:20 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Hello Alan,
I hope I paraphrase the Sudnow method to the satisfaction of Mr Sudnow. Well, here goes...

The method essentials, to me, firstly, allow one to look at a chord line and a simple melody line, as in a fake book, and instantly play them, with both hands, with luscious chords. This is done in a formulaic way.

According to Mr Sudnow, and I have no reason to disbelieve this promise, even a neophyte, in 1-2 years will be able to think of a song and play the same types of pretty sounds without needing to look at any music. This facility should come sooner to those with piano experience.

He illustrates a transposable chord progression which is common to most Western music "jazz standards" which enables this facility.

He is dogmatic. His course is available via the www. It consists of a DVD, several CDs, and over 100 pages of download text, as well as a number of index-sized cards which synopsize his method.

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#1139346 - 02/07/05 02:16 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
I started with Sudnow.
I'm 42 years old and had never played the piano before.
I went to the Sudnow seminar in Dallas, TX last weekend Sept. 2004. I've been practicing about an hour a day and I'm up to my 6th song. I haven't worked any of the voicings myself yet though.Bought two of the dot books with CD's.
I feel great about my progress and my results.
My family enjoys listening to what I play which is really satisfying.
I think it's a great way to learn fast and sound good really progressing in your music knowledge.

Have fun,

_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1139347 - 02/07/05 10:12 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Paret,

Glad to hear your enthusiasm and perseverance have paid off in such a short period of time. The voicing bit is going to be a lot of work, but maybe after I get a lot of songs under my belt it'll flow.

Have you picked up the Bill Evans Live at the Village Vanguard CD? If I didn't know better, I'd say that ol' maestro had started with the Sudnow technique. This CD's the easiest sound I've experienced in a long time.

I find it hard to believe that only you and I, of the thousands in this forum, started with the Sudnow technique. If that's the case, let's keep it a secret...we'll get all the jobs someday soon!

Enjoy, compadre!

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#1139348 - 02/08/05 01:47 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Alanjazz. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/04
Posts: 84
Loc: England
Footom, Thanks for the explanation, I may purchase the DVD and others CD,s The experience may well help my never ending quest to play better every day.

I have the Bill Evans DVD called 'The Universal Mind of Bill Evans' by EFORFILMS, A 1966 documentary.

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#1139349 - 02/08/05 04:18 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
I don't have that Evans CD. Where did you get it?
_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1139350 - 02/15/05 10:03 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
thomosh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 125
i got the sudnow method yesterday 2/14/05. listened to all the cd's that night..3.5 hrs..and did a little bit of work at the keys.

2/15 - started the first song...spend 4.5 hours between working on misty and some of my classical pieces. mostly i was doing sudnow's method. I'm through the first 3 pages of the song. i think david has a sound methodology...but the funny thing is you just can never get around having to put in the time...and there will always be frustration. But over time let's all hope that we find the shortest path between two points...may all our practice time be well spent and focused.

Although classical and contemporary styles clash in terms of how the brain processes the activities, I still think they complement each other...the only caveat is time...i don't know how many more 4.5 hr nights i can stand at the keys..esp. after working 10 hrs..

BUT IT IS FUN..PIANO IS FUN..I ENJOY PIANO..YEAH THAT'S IT..

I love this stuff....

see positive reinforcement is a great thing

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#1139351 - 02/16/05 10:54 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Just to update...again, I'm a novice at this, but the voicings are not really that tough. I pulled out a couple fake books and have voiced "Emily" and "All the Things You Are".

Sudnow's extremely detailed instructions are at once reassuring and off-putting. However, I found using his formulae as guidelines, and my ears (and mood) as the final decision making criteria for the voicings, it's really extremely easy.

I'm thrilled, and will continue studying the fine points of his course as I get bored with my own little exploits.

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#1139352 - 02/21/05 07:47 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
I feel like I'm out in the cold a little doing back to back postings but in addition to "Emily "and "All The Things You Are" I've just voiced "I Loves You Porgy" and "(I'll Take) Manhattan" using the Sudnow method and they sound beautiful. No BS.

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#1139353 - 02/25/05 06:52 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Harrison Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 7
Loc: North Texas
Hello All,

Another prospective Sudnowite here. I've had the materials about the same length of time as you, footom, but I'm not nearly as far along. I think that is simply because of the amount of time I've had (or haven't had) to invest in the course.

I do think that the method is sound and I do intend to pursue it more vigorously as my job permits. I may try to hook up with Mr. Sudnow when he swings through Texas on his one-on-one tour, even though I am a rank beginner. Can't hurt.

And, Paret, I'm not too far from your neighborhood, down here in Glen Rose.

Off to FTW to find the Evans CD.
Bill

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#1139354 - 02/25/05 08:23 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
YeCats Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 10
Loc: SC
Hello AB Forum, Footom, and Harrison,

I purchased the Sudnow course yesterday, and am waiting for it in the mail.

I've played organ in my church for three years, yet I want to get into this piano thing. I'm basicly "self taught". I just really want to improve my playing and learn techs better.

I work for a great Boss. I want to do my best for Him.

Enjoy reading this forum everyday!
YeCats

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#1139355 - 02/25/05 08:29 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
YeCats Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 10
Loc: SC
Ummmmmm ....and thats the non classical forum too ;-)

Ye

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#1139356 - 02/28/05 08:58 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
Good thing Harrison. Maybe we can get together.
I'm in for the Private lesson with David when he comes to Texas.

Footom would you share some of your voicings?

Maybe send me an e-mail?

Let me know.

_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1139357 - 03/04/05 09:53 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Sure, I'd love to share my voicings. These are first efforts of a 10-week piano player, and here and there really call out for tweaking. But, you know, let me tell you a quick story...

We had pals over tonite for dinner. She took piano lessons as a child, and has had lessons on and off for many years. She hasn't played for ten years, and has been taking lessons again with a teacher for four months. You wouldn't think a pup like me could hold a candle to her, only ten weeks into touching the ivories with any semblance of organization. But I played Porgy tonight, and she tried our piano and played a pop song as her teacher taught her. I culled my voicing from a fake book, using David's formula. My pal's playing sounded extremely basic, just single notes right hand and chords left hand. My Porgy sounded like I'd been the one who'd played since I was a kid. I tried to tell her to use the Sudnow technique, and she just brushed it off as too much work! She's put in a hundred times more work than me, and I have so much more to show for it. She's got a love for piano, and I'm going to encourage her to take Sudnow. She'll fly past me in no time if she does, as she should.

Now Paret, as far as sharing my voicings. What's the best way for me to get what I put on the dot diagrams to you? I wouldn't mind posting them on this forum. Is there a way to get diagrams on this page? Is it legal?

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#1139358 - 03/05/05 05:52 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Just received notification from pianoworld that my Porgy voicing is at:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/porgy.gif

I'll get some more voicings out when I cyberize them.

Tried purchasing "When Sunny Gets Blue" thru 2 different download services. Paid twice, lost both times...no download. I'll try to figure out the chord pattern myself for now.

BTW, I got the Bill Evans CD at Virgin Records in NYC. There's a lot of Bill Evans stuff available on the web.

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#1139359 - 03/07/05 02:21 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
Thanks for sharing Footom!!

Cool story too.

I haven't voiced anything myself yet. Just learning a few of the songs from David's CD's and Dot books.

As soon as I get one done I'll share it with you.

It might be a while though.

Funny how you can sound better than a "more experienced player". That's great.

_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1139360 - 03/08/05 08:57 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Rodney Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 735
Loc: Caledon ON, Canada
OK,.... How about some details....

How does this Sudnow method work? Obviously I'm not looking to give away the trade secrets but I'm curious as to the basics.

Rodney

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#1139361 - 03/08/05 07:02 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Hello Rodney,

Just to add a bit more detail than you'll find from my posting at the top of this thread...

Dave Sudnow came up with a formula. He bases it on breaking all chords down into three categories: major, dominant seventh, and minor seventh. For each of these categories, there is a formula, using certain notes based upon the scale of the root note. You do not play your basic textbook chord, but a chord derived from his formula. It may even sound dissonant sometimes, but it always sounds good. You put the melody note on top of his chord. This all you do with the right hand. With the left hand, you play two notes: root and either 5th, flatted seventh, or octave, again depending on which one of the chord types.

You have to know your scales backwards and forwards for this all to fly.

To summarize, you look at a simple fake book line, basic chord and one note melody, and after you apply his formula, you sound like Bill Evans is your teacher. You may be slow, but the sound is there.

After you develop a familiarity with this method, which he calls "voicing", you begin to see what he describes as a "universal pattern in Western music". He has a flow chart of chords, transposable into any key, which characterize the way we should think when we try to figure out the next chord in any jazz standard. It leads your mind to the next chord. Through this, you only have to know how the melody goes, and you can predict the next chord in a song. Thus, after a while, you don't even need a fake book anymore, just familiarity with the sound of the tune.

By the way, he doesn't use notes. He uses picture diagrams of the scales and his voicings. You don't even have to be able to read musical notation to learn music theory with this method.

I've been looking for shortcuts to get rapidly into piano, as I'm a professional-level guitarist with arthritic thumbs which hurt after 20 minutes guitar playing. I didn't want to have to go through Michael Row the Boat Ashore for two years on the piano. I didn't with this method. Ten weeks into it and I feel I have a real command of the sounds I always wanted to make.

I highly recommend this course.

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#1139362 - 03/14/05 10:38 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Out of curiosity I looked at the website. I didn't realize it when I read this post, but Sudnow wrote the book "Ways of the Hand" which I read quite some time back. I remember him continually trying to learn improvistion, playing without music, and looking for interesting sounding "patterns" when he played. It's cool to see that a method came about because of all of this.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#1139363 - 04/11/05 12:20 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
hmr516 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Merrick, Ny
What happened to the forums on the Sudnow website? I went there today and they were gone. I bought the course, but I have not started it yet. Does anyone know if the forums there have been moved? Thanks.

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#1139364 - 04/11/05 03:18 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Paret Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 82
Loc: Keller, TX
Same thing happened to me today. I'll try to e-mail David and see what the problem is.

In the meantime if anyone finds out please post.

Thank you,

_________________________
Luis D. Paret
K1LDP

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#1139365 - 04/11/05 07:24 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
Hi HMR516 and Luis,

I just accessed the Sudnow forums, closed down, and reaccessed them, no problems at:

http://www.sudnow.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Try it and let me know.

tom

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#1139366 - 04/12/05 05:59 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
hmr516 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Merrick, Ny
Hi there,

I checked this morning and the forums were not available. I received the following e-mail from David Sudnow this morning:

"The forums are in the process of being thoroughly reorganized. You'll receive an email when it is up and running again".

When I see they are back up, I will leave a note here.

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#1139367 - 04/13/05 08:48 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
snake Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 65
Loc: uk
you can access them via the questions section ,keep continueing and they will appear top right
_________________________
sssssssssss

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#1139368 - 04/23/05 12:56 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
I've got "When Sunny Gets Blue", "Emily", and "I Loves You Porgy" dot-voiced. If anyone's interested, I'll cyberize and upload.

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#1139369 - 04/23/05 04:27 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
kateriniparalia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Cali
That'd be great, footom. Please do.
~kat (still struggling with voicing)

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#1139370 - 04/23/05 07:49 PM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
footom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 55
Loc: new york city
OK they're in the works!

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#1139371 - 04/24/05 02:59 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Bob331 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 135
Loc: NY
I just received the course and am listening to the CDs. Sounds very interesting.

Bob

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#1139372 - 04/26/05 12:37 AM Re: Anyone here start with the Sudnow Method?
Shalanna Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 73
Loc: Dallas area, Texas
I just got the course in the mail. Planning to do the listening next weekend. I already read notation pretty well, so I think my toughest challenge will be those dot diagrams. (*grin*)

But I'd love to see your voicings! How can you cyberize them? I mean . . . is there a files section here that will hold a jpeg? Just curious.
_________________________
Music soothes the savage anything.
www.livejournal.com/users/shalanna

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