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To be good at jazz without reading notes and knowing theory? Someone said that there are good ´jazzers´ who dont know theory, but only have good ear. What do you think?

I think those people are uniquely gifted, and along the way, they most certainly have picked up parts of chord theory, scales, and rules of harmony. When you're putting a chord together, you're using theory. When you're throwing a blues scale over a boogie-woogie bass, you're using theory. When you're throwing a chord progression together, you're using theory.

No matter how good you are, anything that you can learn about sight reading, theory, and scales, will only serve to make you a more competant, better educated, and more proficient musician. Don't short-change yourself. It's not that hard and it doesn't take that long to get some of the nitty-gritty foundations that you can build from.

Good luck!

Erroll Garner is the one who comes to mind.... he wrote," Misty" and is listed with the jazz greats... His bio stated he was totally self taught...All jazz pinao players I ever knew were conservatory graduates or piano teachers, etc... Except one, a friend and I , he teaches to concert level piano and he was very interested in this story too as the man was so good at jazz piano... we were at the "One Step Down Lounge" in Washington,DC...appx. 15 years ago... a young man was playing jazz on the piano... about 30 years old...I asked him where he learned to play jazz piano? He told me this," I studied with a professor at Essex Communtiy College for a short while and he taught me...He told me he had never played piano or any instrument before...I asked, "How long did you study with this professor? " He shocked me by saying ,"Maybe 6 months about 2 years ago..."
He was very good...Talent...I guess almost anything is possibe with enough talent... Sandy B.

My younger sister is like that. She can play any song as long as she listens to it. Then she goes to the piano, picks out the melody, and adds a left hand. I know she has a better ear than me, but she has trouble with counting and theory and other stuff. Which could be a problem because she's also a classical player.

I think they're amazingly talented and gifted with something that they share with the world. I think anything is possible with talent, perseverance, and determination. Most definitely. But most of all, passion. I love playing jazz and pop pieces and such, but at this moment my teacher won't let me, because I have to 'refine my touch'. So I've been trying to self-study somet stuff. As long as you have the will to do it, you can.

Your teacher won't let you !? That's absurd. How does he/she propose to stop you ? Arrange for 10,000 volts to go through your fingers every time you play jazz ?

It doesn't lie within a teacher's jurisdiction to tell you what to play. Play whatever you want to whenever you want to play it.

Can a person become a concert artist and start late in classical training on the piano? Here is another example. Members,Leonard Bernstein, I had never seen this before," Reaching for the Note"... Did anyone hear it was stated Leonard Bernstein was almost totally self taught before his Harvard Music Degree? I read in a bio of his that he was 11 years old before a piano was bought for his home...His dad would not pay for him to take piano is what was stated also...So he played classical piano too and had very little training before Harvard ...Here is another example of "Talent never goes anywhere."
Sandy B

Yes I saw that Bernstein show. Oscar Peterson comes to mind as a great jazz pianist with a very strong classical background. Also Keith Jarrett. In the other direction, I've heard that Andre Previn was an excellent jazz pianist.

Talent and a great ear MIGHT get you by if you play a one-note-at-a-time instrument like trumpet or sax (or voice) but I never met a jazz pianist who didn't have a strong understanding of harmony. Not to say some pianists don't make very nice music just by ear - it's just not jazz. I think this is good news because harmony IS something you can learn whereas the highly overrated concept of "talent" is supposedly innate and therefore not available to the rest of us.

DEAR SWEET_ MELODY...ME TOO MELODY...SANDY B...GRANDMA PIANIST HERE...MY FIRST CLASSICAL PIANO TEACHER WITH HER MASTER'S DEGREE IN MUSIC EDUCATION ... INSTRUMENT PIANO...TOLD ME AS AN ADULT BEGINNER CLASSICAL PIANO STUDENT,I WAS AGE 23 YEARS OLD TO START OUT..."PLEASE DO NOT WASTE PRECIOUS TIME ON POPULAR PIANO WHILE TAKING CLASSICAL PIANO LESSONS FROM ME FOR 5 YEARS... ONLY CLASSICAL ... I PROMISED AND I DID..." I THOUGHT," SHE KNOWS SO MUCH MORE THAN I EVER WILL... I SHOULD LISTEN..." I DID...ALSO SHE SAID ,"PLEASE PLAY EACH LESSON WITH A METRONOME FOR 3 YEARS..." I DID THIS TOO...SHE MOVED ...MY NEXT PIANO TEACHER, CAROLYN, ASKED ME,{ SHE JUST GOT OUT OF COLLEGE WITH HER MASTERS IN MUSIC ED..PIANO INSTRUMENT...] AFTER A FEW LESSONS WITH THIS SECOND TEACHER, CAROLYN, "SANDY WILL YOU teach classical piano... AS MY UNDERSTUDY?" I and said," HAVE TOO MANY STUDENTS...YOU CAN TEACH AS MY UNDERSTUDY UP TO INTERMEDIATE CLASSICAL?" IT WORKED FOR ME TO LISTEN TO MY FIRST CLASSICAL PIANO TEACHER...SARAH WAS TOUGH BUT IT PAID OFF..THE SECOND TEACHER , CAROLYN, I MADE $12.00 AN HOUR TEACHING UNDER HER GUDIANCE AS HER UNDERSTUDY... 40 YEARS AGO...GOOD LUCK AND FOLLOW YOUR STAR...{I DO NOT BELIEVE IF I HAD NOT LISTENED I WOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED TO TEACH AS AN UNDERSTUDY TO A LADY WITH HER MASTERS DEGREE IN MUSIC EDUCATION...}I almost dropped oveR when she asked me TO TEACH UNDER HER AS HER UNDERSTUDY..I was shocked...GOOD LUCK AGAIN melody... Grandma... SANDY B...PLEASE FORGIVE MISTAKES ...I HAVE HAD STROKES...AGAIN SANDY B

193866,

I may guess your age ? I might have '192878,' but swingal, seems OK.

You are bang on about Erroll too. My great hero, spoke to him in his backstage dressing room in the early 60's when on tour in England.

Loved by all, as his playing and personality were all about fun and pleasure to his fellow beings.

He loved to tease everyone with his long introductions that never left a clue about what he would play.

Being left handed, this was a great benefit as he seemed able to split his brain and literally do two rhythms and off beats together. You must see his recordings on tape and video. Named 'In Performance' from memory.

Alan

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to learn harmony by listening and playing alone. After all, the words we use to describe notes/chords/progressions came after the sounds themselves. We all have our own learning styles and preferences. Some will enjoy learning 'dry' theory, others may be put off playing because of it. As a teacher I have always tried to adapt to the way my students learned best.
Reading music is a very useful skill, though again there are other ways of learning, as demonstrated by the visually impaired.

Martin

pian00b

It's certainly possible to play the piano without being able to read music. I cannot say whether it's a gift born and inherited in you with the genes. Or that you are taught as a child to understand what all the sounds of an octave on the keyboard are. Or you teach yourself the note/sounds relative to the music already stored in the subconscious brain, that you wish to play. Though the latter is more for experienced ear players. Probably a combination of all.

It is best to only try one or the other method in my view, as trying to learn correctly is muffled by 'already knowing the right notes' to play before you get to that note on reading of the score. One can definitely master the keyboard, one way or the other but not both ways! due to the confusing of the sub-conscious brain.

Now, classical pianists all learn to memorise the complete score of a really difficult composition. And in a solo concert probably 3 or 4 in one evening performance.

I assume they memorise the sound they wish to express having learned it from the music. So then the fingers go to the keys by memory and practice. Probably with a photographic memory recall of the written score too.

Generally in jazz one remembers the basic music, song, tune or theme and then translates that to the keys that produce the required sound. Whether trained, or by ear, all pianists know how to follow a tune once the first note is struck. Given good memory recall. The none-readers know which note follows next, by memory of the keys sound. The conventional ones improvise by theory of learned techniques and phrasing etc. I guess!

Jazz is given to untrained ear playing, like me, with the instantaneous playing extemporisation and improvisation required. I write down the music starting note, in a certain key (sometimes a choice of keys). I never know what key I actually play in but usually not a terribly difficult one, my wife tells me what key I'm in, not that it matters. I see that a lot of jazz is played in Bb; F and Eb. I also use 'play along' from CD's to get some rhythm and finger practice I love doing that.

As I have said before on this topic, the singers are taught to produce sounds with their vocal chords and yes they read music, though not so many perhaps as some who can sing from memory only.

Many trained pianists can tell you what a phrase is from memory. Indeed, as I read on these forums here, a huge amount of theory is given and that seems a lot of comprehensive musical knowledge to me. So the few complete ear players concentrate 100% on their mastery of the piano and sounds that are available.

I will leave it to the taught members here to explain their understanding of memorisation which I expect is totally based on theory of music and is very difficult to imagine to me.

Alan

CORRECTION...LEONARD BERNSTEIN... THE PIANO THAT WAS DELIVERED TO HIS HOME WHEN HE WAS 11 YEARS OLD...WAS NOT PURCHASED BY HIS FAMILY...IT BELONGED TO A RELATIVE AND WAS SENT FREE OF COST TO HIS HOME...I SAID IT WAS PURCASHED BY MISTAKE... ALL HIS BIO 'S TELL THE SAME STORY... HIS DAD WOULD NOT SPEND MONEY AT ALL ON MUSIC LESSONS NOR ON A PIANO FOR HIM...SANDY B

Thank you Alan for sharing your excellent info with us... Sandy B