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#1141209 - 02/19/08 12:22 AM Disciple has been driven off
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1612
That was shameful how some members treated Disciple in some other threads. I did not know that was going on or I would have tried to stand up for him. Disciple is perhaps the finest pianist on this forum that I have encountered and undeniably a great master of the instrument. I have witnessed his amazing abilities. I can imagine how badly I would feel if all that contempt had been thrown at me. Disciple was a great source of information and always willing to help. He actually helped me modify my technique. His knowledge was quite valuable. Why do people like that always need to try to tear down those who are great?
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1141210 - 02/19/08 12:29 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
AD Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 193
What? What threads? There's so much traffic on PW that I missed the 'discussions'.
I'd at the very least like to thank him for introducing me to Martial Solal.

Regards

Andy
_________________________
-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.

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#1141211 - 02/19/08 12:37 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7111
Loc: So. California
What's going on?!!! I missed all this action.

Disciple is such an asset to this forum. I may have to agree that he's most likely the finest pianist here. It would be terrible to lose him (again). I for one have learned so much from him even from his prior posts as another user.

Those who tear him down are unlikely to be capable of besting him in playing.

It saddens me to see this happen.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#1141212 - 02/19/08 01:21 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7111
Loc: So. California
Sometime ago when Disciple posted using the name Virtuosic1, I downloaded his playing of Donna Lee. Now Jazzers know what Donna Lee is, it is played pretty uptempo to begin with.

Well, Disciple played a solo of Donna Lee with SIXTEENTH NOTES and extremely precise articulation and very relaxed swing feel. It is plain AWESOME. I'm listening to it right now. If Disciple isn't famous, he should be.

I asked him to post this link again but unfortunately he did not. Most musicians of Disciple's caliber will not post music on a site like this because of Intellectual property issues. And I clearly understand that. But he was one of the few jazz masters who shared.

The people in the classical forum have NO IDEA of Disciple's pedigree, studying directly from Tristano. Heck, they may not even know who Tristano is.

I for one spotted Disciple as no ordinary poster. I hope he comes back and stays in the Non-Classical section where he will not have detractors.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#1141213 - 02/19/08 01:45 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I have checked old posts and didn't see any attack against Disciple. I have actually seen Disciple attacking Daniel without any apparent reason.

It's not the first time Disciple got into problems with other users. It happened on pianostreet and I supported him all the time but I couldn't pretend he wasn't doing at good job at stirring discussion with his discrimination of younger members and sudden mood swings from calm to offensive.

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#1141214 - 02/19/08 02:35 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8934
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Post deleted by argerichfan.
_________________________
Jason

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#1141215 - 02/19/08 02:56 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Nobody has 'driven' disciple off. He was frustrated because many of his claims were not taken seriously. In the virtual world the proof must be in the pudding, or we get nowhere - I just can't see why he couldn't provide it. I do, for what it's worth.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1141216 - 02/19/08 03:24 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
On second thought I have read the thread.
No one threated Discipline badly and honestly it would have been impossible to stand up for him.

And I have to say it would have been impossible to agree with the premise of his argument anyway. It's a ridicolous nonsense the snob accademic belief that those who don't appreciate serial or stochastic music are just inferior people used to simple music who need a lot of ear training.

Those genres of music are not the natural evolution of older classical music of whatever nonsense is claimed but a completely different approach and philosophy to sound and in fact the whole idea behind modernism in music started with a political and social philosophy and only later "contaminated" music.

I don't appreciate that music not because I need to get used to it or need my ear to be educated or whatever nonsense but because I don't appreciate, support and relate to the philosophy and approach to sounds which is behind the creation of that music. So Disciple can't be defended in this instance. We should learn to respect our different mindsets and worlviews rather than creating dogma and becoming extreme fristrated fundamentalists when someone doesn't agree with the dogma.

On the other hand Dnephi too is a good musician and a talented pianist and also a kind and helpful guy and he doesn't deserve such aggressive and insulting replies.

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#1141217 - 02/19/08 10:01 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Reaper978 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 1326
 Quote:
sudden mood swings from calm to offensive.
Hm. I see.

I've posted in the pianist corner for awhile and it has been, sadly, a negative experience. The crowd there does not take kindly to alternate viewpoints.

He and I have exchanged some private messages and he struck me as an amazing and kind person. From what I remember he spent a lot of his early life listening to the highly dissonant music of the 20th century. I am actually doing something similar.

I think it is fair to say that no one could understand someone of such depth through an internet forum. I'll see if I can contact him.

-Colin

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#1141218 - 02/19/08 10:20 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11844
Loc: Canada
It seems that people at the upper ends are often complex individuals, sometimes confusing to understand or deal with. Whether or not what they present can be understood, or whether it can be presented in this kind of medium, at least one gets glimpses and gleanings. Even if those glimpses remain meaningless or not applicable because of the reader's own present limitations, they tend to have an essence about them which stay like a seed for some future time. It's a loss if such people disappear, even if the world is calmer without the intensity.

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#1141219 - 02/19/08 01:20 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7111
Loc: So. California
If we don't know a person's capabilities, is the proper response to challenge them to a duel to prove their skill?

What if Oscar Peterson had posted on this forum and we didn't know who it was. Then, do we say, "prove your skill to us!". If I were OP I'd say to myself, go jump in the lake, I've got nothing to prove.

He has already shared transcriptions and analysis of things that are far beyond what any hobbyist here would even try. There's the occasional Pro that comes here and posts and none of them really offers free information like Disciple did. Most don't want to distribute information about something that they make a living from.

In that case, he was unique. The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him. This is an anonymous forum. It must be hard to separate the anonymous elements from his posts since he knows what he can do but no one will spend to the time figuring out who he is.

Alas, that is the disadvantage of an anonymous forum. Here we are all equal. Masters and hobbyists alike. People will have to judge our written words on their own.
_________________________
Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP


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#1141220 - 02/19/08 02:06 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11844
Loc: Canada
There is another unstated factor. If you are someone capable of demonstrating something, there is no way of realistically assessing whether anyone is absorbing it or even paying attention. Those who are the most attentive might be the most infrequent posters, or don't post at all. the impression that the instructing party gets only comes from actual feedback, and some of that feedback might be argumentative - what impression is left?

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#1141221 - 02/19/08 04:44 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by jazzwee:
In that case, he was unique. The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.[/b]
No he wouldn't.
I play for myself, for my passion for music and the piano. I don't play to have others telling me how good and nice I am. I don't give a flying cow about having my skills recognized by someone except me. There's nothing mature about bragging how you can play this or that with your hands tied and blindfolded and there's nothing mature in getting hysterical when someone doubts you and there's nothing mature in applying ageist discrimination to feel better about yourself.
The kids he has accused in those instances have showed way more maturity than him.

I don't consider music as simplistically as "by levels". Each of us has a unique perspective and approach and dismissing them because "they're lower level" is a terrible personal loss.
I have beginners 12 year old younger me giving me suggestions about matters they believe I could benefits from knowing througha different perspective. I have never dared to insult a beginner because "I know better and I have done what you're doing so many year ago". I instead accept whatever they have to offer and am moved by their kindness to share their information to me.

More often than not I realize that a beginner is not just what I was many levels ago but a musician with an unique perspective which can help me to see things and musical matters from an angle I have never considered before.

We're all teachers and learners at whatever age and at whatever level. Arrogance is pathetic and useful to no one.

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#1141222 - 02/19/08 05:15 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
AD Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 193
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them.
_________________________
-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.

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#1141223 - 02/19/08 05:27 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
ktom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 212
Loc: Somerset UK
I was not sure what the point of this thread is, and now I am sure I dont know
_________________________
Steinway K - Kurzweil PC 88(wrecked and sold for spares) - Yamaha S90 - rhodes 760 - korg wavestation- Hammond XK1 etc..

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#1141224 - 02/19/08 08:39 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Reaper978 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 1326
 Quote:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.
No kidding.

I would be pretty upset too if I spent my entire life pursuing music only to have some people on the internet rip me down for no apparent reason. It's no wonder the true masters don't post on the internet - they don't have time for this crap. And things are easily misconstrued. I am pretty sure the forum-goers would react in much the same way to Mozart, Beethoven, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, etc.

Sometimes you have to stick up for what you know you have accomplished. It wasn't socially appropriate, but artists tend not to be. And I think you have to harbor some "delusions of grandeur" at times to be truly great. We all know how much "the real world" and "realists" want to keep the creative spirit down.

What can I say, for as little contact I had with him, I love the guy.

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#1141225 - 02/19/08 09:05 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
I was curious about this, so I searched out the thread and read it. What an arrogant little jerk. In all my years on the Internet (and yes, I've been around a while, sadly), I don't think I've ever encountered such a small-minded, self-important a$$.

So, "disciple," all I can say is...don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

Sheesh. Good riddance.

Edit: I'd like to add that I did watch the "signature" youtube vid. Yeah, ok, fine. It takes a lot of fast moving fingers to do that. But it did absolutely nothing for me musically. Whatever.

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#1141226 - 02/19/08 10:13 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
I was gone for a week, I come back, and one of the forum's most valuable members is gone?
That's really too bad. He was one of the few people on this board who REALLY knows how to play the piano. I don't even care what happened. Disciple is awesome.

J. Mark-do you need a tissue or something? You seem pretty worked up there, gangster. You seem to get worked up alot on PW...

Disciple is a real musician and a fabulous pianist. I can even say that and I don't know anything about jazz.
I hope he returns.

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#1141227 - 02/19/08 10:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
I was gone for a week, I come back, and one of the forum's most valuable members is gone?
That's really too bad. He was one of the few people on this board who REALLY knows how to play the piano. I don't even care what happened. Disciple is awesome.

J. Mark-do you need a tissue or something? You seem pretty worked up there, gangster. You seem to get worked up alot on PW...
[/b]
Competency and knowledge can't make up for aggressivity, arrogance, presumptious, rudeness and closed mindedness. I don't have enough self-loathing to worship someone and get down on my knees to kiss his holy *** all the time.
Mrs Argerich could join the forum and provide lot of insight and unvaluable advices but should she mistreat other people, get psychotic, insult others arrogantly and display an excess of closed mindedness I would never excuse her behavior just because she's famous/genius/knowledgeable ... I would tell her to get the **** out.

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#1141228 - 02/20/08 04:18 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
"The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him"

Sorry mate, but if one has such problems he himself is the problem rather than the music student.

I have read the topic and, without questioning the proficiency of disciple (I was impressed and wrote so), it is fair to say that he behaved like a primadonna.

If you decide to write on the internet, you must live with different opinions and even with people you don't like; these are bound to be there in a virtual space as everywhere else in life, irrespective of how accomplished a pianist you are.

Frankly, if I had not read it in the posts I would have assumed that keyboardklutz was the mature 54 years old and disciple the nervous teenager, whatever the disagreements between them.

Noone can come here with the expectation of being worshipped or his word never put in doubt and start throwing toys around if he isn't.

I hope that disciple will come back to this forum and hope to be able to learn from his contributions. But at the end of the day noone chased him away, it was his choice and BTW, to leave a forum that you like because another poster disagrees with you does not sound particularly mature to me.
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1141229 - 02/20/08 04:26 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1916
Loc: Netherlands
 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:
I would be pretty upset too if I spent my entire life pursuing music only to have some people on the internet rip me down for no apparent reason.[/b]
Why? What do you care what some moron says or thinks about you? Picking a fight with them -- which is what they want -- won't change their opinion anyway, at least not for the better. Validating yourself through the opinions of others is a pretty lousy way to feel good about yourself.
_________________________
No idea what chords you are playing? Reverse Chord Finder Pro will tell you!

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#1141230 - 02/20/08 04:55 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Some people need to repeat on a daily basis "It's just the Internet."

If you can't take the heat - people differing with your opinion - without getting pompous and defensive, maybe your should stay out of the kitchen.

I belong to another forum where - among many other things - we talk about piano because a lot of us are piano player - some professional, and most amateur (me the latter).

A person joined, announced himself as a professional here to help all of us, made assumptions of other members based on reading 1 or 2 posts, and generally made an *** of himself. When some of us gave him feedback ("Uhh...we actually have teachers who tell us obvious things like 'practice hands separate,' and we're here really just to discuss, and if we don't ask specific questions then please don't assume advice is being solicited. Also, I don't really agree with you about....anyway," he got really defensive, and name calling obnoxious.

Too bad, some of the music on his Website was kind of nice, and I'm sure he would have good things to contribute with a different attitude, and signal to noise ratio.

If you go to a dinner party only to yell and throw food whenever someone disagrees with you - no matter how smart you are - guess what, you don't get invited back.

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#1141231 - 02/20/08 06:58 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by AD:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them. [/b]
And so would everyone else. As they say - one swallow does not a summer make. Or, more Teutonically, einmal ist keinmal.

By the way I shall be a happy 52 next week not the innocent (I couldn't go through that again) 18 presumed by innominato.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1141232 - 02/20/08 08:31 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
Jeez, you're old... ;\)
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#1141233 - 02/20/08 09:07 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11844
Loc: Canada
A youngster, by my books. Which makes me a youngster too. KbK, as well as almost being an age-mate, are you a fellow Aquarian or more of the fishy variety - said fish being known of being able to swim in opposite directions yet maintain unity, if you look at the horoscope sign.

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#1141234 - 02/20/08 09:17 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17815
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
[edit] never mind!
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1141235 - 02/20/08 09:33 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
LaValse Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 1225
Loc: Mumbles, Wales
Hi Monica,

It all started to fall apart when he said he could play the Chopin Etudes and the Godowsky Chopin Etudes. I must admit I don't really understand why that caused so much skepticism given his background and skills...

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/17070.html#000012

[edit] too late!
_________________________
http://uk.youtube.com/user/sailwavedev

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#1141236 - 02/20/08 10:13 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
ocd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 201
Loc: North East
 Quote:
Originally posted by Innominato:
Jeez, you're old... ;\) [/b]
Getting older is like driving: it is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that can be cancelled at any time.

ocd
_________________________
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

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#1141237 - 02/20/08 10:29 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
 Quote:
The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.
Like a number of others, this passage struck me.

I have NOT read the thread in question, nor do I plan to. I have read plenty that seem like it.

I suspect there is plenty of guilt to throw around.

First, a true master can be a good and patient teacher. Young people are often arrogant. After all, they know what life is all about and the secrets of the universe are all plain to them! One of the jobs of us 'older folks' is to suggest to them, patiently and without venom, that their certainty about everything may prevent them from gaining a deeper understanding.

On the other hand, we all know that the anonymity of the internet creates a hot house in which the worst aspects of personality often dominate. Somebody has to be the adult, and if no one chooses to step up to that role we get a meltdown.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1141238 - 02/20/08 10:34 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
bukopaudan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 506
Loc: USA
What a shame to lose such a great player. I am listening to his video right now--he is magic. I have not read the thread it question either, but he's amazing and seemed to be a very great asset to this group. I have never encountered him myself, nor have I really "met" him here on piano forums, but it is sad that his knowledge is lost to us.
_________________________
"Music can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable." -Leonard Bernstein

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