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#1141239 - 02/20/08 10:41 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Good grief. "...his knowledge is lost to us...." Sheesh. You'd think we were talking about Bach himself... particularly absurd coming from someone who admittedly has "never encountered" the guy, on the forums or otherwise, or even read the damn thread.

Let's be clear: we are not talking about Bach himself. Hardly. And might I suggest that people actually read the thread before making these profound statements? (You, too, David... You might find it a little beyond what you are used to around here....)

There are plenty of "great players" on these forums, and among them there is no shortage of kind, patient, decent, generous, thoughtful people, who will share their knowledge graciously, without embarrasingly overblown self-aggrandizement. We can quite easily do without the latter.

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#1141240 - 02/20/08 11:05 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Wombat66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 262
Loc: Cornwall UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by AD:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them. [/b]
I am sorry that this man feels he has been "driven out" (perhaps resigned, or "gone off in a huff" may be a more apt description). His contributions to the forum were so profound I can't actually recall ever having read any of them.
However having seen his video I quite admire his touch if not his tune.
Should he wish to return does he really have to tinkle his ivories wearing fishnet stockings? or was that a trick of the light on the video?

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#1141241 - 02/20/08 11:24 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
ktom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 212
Loc: Somerset UK
Im an aquarian too - also heading towards antiquarian:-)
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#1141242 - 02/20/08 03:33 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by J. Mark:
Good grief. "...his knowledge is lost to us...." Sheesh. You'd think we were talking about Bach himself... particularly absurd coming from someone who admittedly has "never encountered" the guy, on the forums or otherwise, or even read the damn thread.

Let's be clear: we are not talking about Bach himself.[/b]
If Bach were rude, arrogant, psychotic and aggressive with me I wouldn't give a damn about his genius and kick him out. If anyone is willing to be abused, mistreated and insulted just to have the chance to learn something new from a master ... I just say good luck with your self-confidence!

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#1141243 - 02/20/08 03:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
 Quote:
The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.
Like a number of others, this passage struck me.

I have NOT read the thread in question, nor do I plan to. I have read plenty that seem like it.

I suspect there is plenty of guilt to throw around.

First, a true master can be a good and patient teacher. Young people are often arrogant. After all, they know what life is all about and the secrets of the universe are all plain to them! One of the jobs of us 'older folks' is to suggest to them, patiently and without venom, that their certainty about everything may prevent them from gaining a deeper understanding.
[/b]

Read the thread. No one acted like he knows everything about life and the secret of the universe ... except him!

There was no young (what the hell of a difference does it make is criticism comes from a young one or an older one?!) guy acting arrogant and presumptuous with him.

People were not skeptic of his claim just disturbed by all that pomposity that he believed allowed him to defend his dogmatic belief with aggressive insult and to bash those who thought otherwise.

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#1141244 - 02/20/08 03:50 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
OK, OK, which thread? There are a number of them.
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#1141245 - 02/20/08 04:24 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Um, did you read *this* thread, David?

Hint: there's a link up above....

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#1141246 - 02/20/08 04:26 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
OK, OK, which thread? There are a number of them. [/b]
LaValse posted the link above

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#1141247 - 02/20/08 05:11 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
As ever, J.Mark, sarcasm becomes you ....
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#1141248 - 02/20/08 05:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Sheesh, what an ugly and childish thread that was. And yes, I do think there was ugliness and childishness all around.

Disciple has a very big chip on his shoulder, and is easily provoked. But others here seem to have really enjoyed provoking him over and over in many threads. That's a spectator sport that doesn't sit well with me. I do not know the PianoStreet history, so I'll stay out of that.

Lord only knows why I have said anything in this unfortunate thread. All it'll likely get me is some vituperative comments or more sarcasm. The fact that I see bad behavior on all sides just ensures that everyone will diss me. \:D
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#1141249 - 02/20/08 07:27 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Danny suggests Disciple is "psychotic".
That's more swift boat style smear tactics.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1141250 - 02/20/08 07:33 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I don't say he is psychotic, I said he had a psychotic reaction. It's different. People are not either aggressive or angelic. They have sometimes aggressive behaviors and sometimes angelic behaviors. I judge the behavior and the action not the person!

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#1141251 - 02/20/08 07:40 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Reminds me of a joke:

"Somebody said you were rude, arrogant, psychotic and aggressive!"

"Really!?"

"Yeah. I told them! I said 'He's not psychotic!'"

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#1141252 - 02/20/08 07:43 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
I can tell you self righteous types get off on all of this.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1141253 - 02/20/08 07:57 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
J. Mark Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1323
Edit: I initially responded to this, but on second thought, I see no point in further comment.

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#1141254 - 02/20/08 09:19 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
I actually thought he was pretty funny. It sort of reminded me of some the arguments I hear the Middle School kids in the school I work at engaging in.

Instead of any kind of intelligent and reasoned disagreement they degenerate rapidly into having 'hissy' fits.

Pretty funny to listen to.

That was the way Valdemoort used to strike me here too.
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#1141255 - 02/21/08 01:21 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Here's Donna Lee and other sample tunes courtesy of Disciple. This is something he posted a long time ago. As someone who appreciates Jazz, this is pretty amazing to me.

http://www.box.net/shared/gk1mboa0os

Disciple did not leave this forum as a "Prima Donna". He was apparently banned.

As I've said before, he's one of the few professional musicians on this forum who has shared a prodigious amount knowledge and information, especially to those of us who understood what he was sharing.
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#1141256 - 02/21/08 09:18 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 1240
Loc: New England
Hello. I don't visit PW or post here as much as I used to. When I checked in a week or so ago, I read a little bit of two posts in which Disciple had posted. His posts made me wonder if this is the same person I had a run in with here on PW about a year ago. Someone in this post says that Disciple used to post under the name Virtuosic1. It IS the same guy.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

The question is, what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?

Jeanne W
_________________________
Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
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#1141257 - 02/21/08 09:22 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
Yes Disciple was known as Virtuosic1

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#1141258 - 02/21/08 11:37 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeanne W:
Hello. I don't visit PW or post here as much as I used to. When I checked in a week or so ago, I read a little bit of two posts in which Disciple had posted. His posts made me wonder if this is the same person I had a run in with here on PW about a year ago. Someone in this post says that Disciple used to post under the name Virtuosic1. It IS the same guy.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

The question is, what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?

Jeanne W [/b]
I see similarities between the two threads. In both threads there was a discussion about music, and virtuosic1/disciple was elevating the discussion to a high level. He was opinionated and informative about the music, and he spoke his opinion. But he was speakin about the music in question. Then people started insulting him personally, and he responded with anger, understandably.

In your "run in", the mess started when livraf said:
"blah, blah, blah, virtuosic....do you want some cheese with that whine ?? We have already heard enough of your rants against these "new age" pianists.
Your rants are bringing out the school girl in you...."

Similarly, in the other thread, disciple said he could play the difficult pieces in the context of a musical discussion. Someone responded with sarcasm, implying that he was lying. Something like "and I'm the king of Greece," and the next 3 or 4 posts were purely ridiculing disciple. Shameful.

Disciple was not the agressor.

If the *stuff* you are talking about is someone saying they don't like a particular piano player, then doing without that *stuff* would reduce the discussion to triviality.

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#1141259 - 02/22/08 12:21 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Disciple was not the aggressor.
He was and is an excellent musician.
Calling him psychotic, arrogant, rude, and aggressive seems a bit much.
I read the thread in question. It was a stupid thread and it should have been locked LONG before things got out of hand.
PW is lucky to have musicians of that level posting on the forums. They are few and far between.
Anyone who doubted that he could play the Chopin Etudes was simply being foolish. Lang Lang played the Chopin etudes at age 13 and so have hundreds and hundreds of others. Disciple has a level of technical mastery over the instrument which is indeed rare. When you can play like he can, Chopin etudes ARE easy.

Shame on those of you that ever provoked this man.

Honestly....for a person of that level to spend their time sharing their valuable knowledge over the internet for ZERO personal gain.... with people who bait him like a chained beast and provoke him until he lashes out and gets banned.

As Wavelength said: shameful. Absolutely shameful.

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#1141260 - 02/22/08 12:45 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
He was the aggressor.
The arrogance and abusive way in which he holds to his idea (often wrong or at least biased and questionable) attacking everyone who doesn't agree with him is indeed aggression.

He has not been banned.

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#1141261 - 02/22/08 01:12 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Speaking with passionate conviction about music is not agression.
Hurling personal insults is.
He did the former. His detractors did the latter.

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#1141262 - 02/22/08 01:25 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
I could speak with passionate conviction about the piano, it doesn't mean I have to be defensive and abusive against sax players. As soon as someone started disagreeing with him he began insulting this person, getting mad at him, bragging about his abilities at naseum and becoming rather untreateable. Sorry but this is closed-mindedness not passion.

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#1141263 - 02/22/08 02:32 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Disciple had alot to offer to this forum
His detractors should be ashamed of their behaviour!

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#1141264 - 02/22/08 02:44 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Mr_Kitty, you of all people should not be throwing stones.
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#1141265 - 02/22/08 03:47 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Let me just say this: First of all I like the three of you guys (Danny, Mr. Kitty, Klutz). You're all quite contentious but some good stuff comes out from it. I enjoy reading all your discussions and you're all well intended.

So as long as nothing gets personal, I hope things continue. This is what the forum is for. To have good intelligent discussions and then we use our own judgement and maybe learn a thing or two. I just hoped that Disciple was also there because there was some good discussion going. Being opinionated is not a bad thing. It gives us something to talk about.

I'm not in the blame game. You three have good ideas in your heads that sometimes gets unclear (and which results in arguments). Often the correct answer is closer to middle.

So could we look at things in the positive light now? Carry on with the debates about technique and music. Personal attacks of any sort are boring. It gets people banned and then we suffer from the lack of good debate.
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#1141266 - 02/22/08 03:54 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Hear, hear!
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1141267 - 02/22/08 03:54 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
I just read that thread where Disciple wrote at length about some sentimental new age pianist:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

His points were excellent. I can see that many people don't understand where he is coming from. Disciple is a New Yorker and from the Lennie Tristano school, he's not the "Have a nice day \:\) " California type. Disciple is like a 10th degree black belt in piano, he is a bit fierce. If you give him crap he will give it back to you. So some liked to tease him and then when he reacts back they condemn him.

I think he has written the most insightful posts I have read anywhere on this forum.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#1141268 - 02/22/08 09:34 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I just don't get it. When you write something like this you invite very strong and sarcastic push back from people who disagree:

 Quote:
Anyone here can already write, or be quickly taught to write similar nursery rhyme compositions. The only difference between Crain and someone on this Forum is that Crain writes nonsense like this believing that he's an artist, but the only artistry he displays is his ability to convince someone else that he's an artist, the same way that an artist will take a 50 foot steel girder, spray paint it red, name it "Sunrise", and convince not only an auction house, but a buyer that it's a work of art. Slow C major to A minor to D minor, to G7 arpeggios in the right hand, played on a Bosendorfer 9 footer, with low octave left hand pedal points will sound just as pretty, yet remain just as trivial as anything Crain has composed and recorded. That's because any tone on a well made concert grand, miked and recorded properly will sound pretty, not because Crain strung musical elements together in any type of meaningful, creative, artistic way. Hanon exercises sound pretty on the right piano.
If this isn't aggressive, then I don't know what aggressive is. He writes his opinion in a manner that suggests that anyone who disagrees is an ignoramus. Is this what it means to be a New Yorker? This is not a reasoned argument. It is an opinionated rant. I couldn't care less whether he is God's gift to music.

On the other hand, the reactions to his posts are equally sophomoric. It takes at least two to have a blow up. Many people seemed to enjoy poking this angry hornet of a pianist. I find that behavior just as reprehensible as his egotistical outbursts. Forums like this seem to breed a lot of non-adults.

This discussion about who is the aggressor is getting kind of silly.
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