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Joined: May 2007
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it IS just alot of phony childish drama. I couldn't agree with you more, J. Mark. The reason I'M concerned is because PW may have lost an incredibly valuable member with much to share with the community. I'm not looking to blame, attack, or defend anyone. I just hope the situation can be remedied, that's all.
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Originally posted by pastafarian: Riddler's idea is a good one, though I , for one, am probably too much of a beginner to profit fom most of his more insightful comments, particualrly in the area of jazz harmony.
I have read his threads and find nothing offensive in them, but then my ego is not at stake when someone claims to have played Chopin's Etudes as a child, because I can't play any of them and so have no pretensions of pianistic competence. I read it and think: "Wow, good for him(her).I suppose that's the level of techinical skill the elite players need." And then "Of course this is the internet, so the claim might be nonsense..." and have lost nothing. I watched his video playing Tristano and thought: "Yeah, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.", whereas the sceptics have offered nothing but talk, which is cheap.
As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not. I loathe Sorabji and love twelve-bar, three-chord blues: pile on the contempt, I won't take it personally and it won't make me reach for a Stravinsky CD over Muddy Waters.
I think Piano Dad's post illustrates the core subtext: people whose ego is tied up in their aesthetic judgements. Grow up.
I don't see Disciple as in the wrong here at all. He backed up his assertions with reasons, and as far as I saw he never attacked a poster personally except in self-defence and if he criticized someone's favourite type of music or composer, it was on grounds of musical sophistication, which adults know is independent of aesthetic value, which is subjective. Period.
My reading of this whole thing is that a few people whose egos are tied up in being the "big experts on the block", could not handle competition from an idiosyncratic outsider who bucked conventional wisdom and, perhaps indelicately, made hamburger of a few sacred cows. That's exactly right.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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----------- Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, A medley of extemporanea; And love is a thing that can never go wrong, And I am Marie of Romania.
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Originally posted by Innominato: As far as the betting is concerned, I frankly do not recollect anyone betting his car first against Disciple, whilst I do recollect Disciple offering to bet his own car (or a sizeable amount of money) inviting his opponent to visit home in Queens.
Actually btb first makes the comment. However, I don't think the intention was to seriously propose a wager, more to emphasize the magnitude in which btb felt that Disciple was overstating his claims. Personally I would have loved it if someone would have taken him up on his offer. Actually, not necessarily the actual bet, but if someone could have offered to come over and record the challenge. If Disciple was speaking the truth, he would then have video evidence and could hopefully then simple point anyone to the video and ignore them.
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Originally posted by bitWrangler: [QUOTE] Personally I would have loved it if someone would have taken him up on his offer. Someone did on piano street (he made the identical offer) but I don't think anything occurred eventually.
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More hearsay in an attempt to smear somebody who is gone. And "btb" the chappie started all that betting nonsense more than once.
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Originally posted by pastafarian: ....As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not. I loathe Sorabji and love twelve-bar, three-chord blues: pile on the contempt, I won't take it personally and it won't make me reach for a Stravinsky CD over Muddy Waters.....
Hi, pastofarian. I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something. For instance, your comment that you "loathe Sorabji.." - I think that's fine. You are clearly stating your opinion. We're all entitled to that. If someone wants to say they "loathe" some musician/composer I like, well their entitled, that's their opinion. To me there's a world of difference between how you expressed your opinion and how Virtuosic1 expressed his. Virtuosic1 went on to demean and belittle. That's what I take exception to. People who TRASH other people's work, etc., that's what I have a problem with. Jeanne W
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Joined: Sep 2005
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That YOU don't like it is NOT a good reason to defend those who attack it, attack those who like it and gets offensive and aggressive if you disagree. What if something YOU like were attacked? What if you said "wait a moment I don't agree" and that triggered a seried of obnoxious posts on how ignorant you are, how you wouldn't know anyway anyway because you can't play this or that and how you just disagree for the sake of it? I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something. For instance, your comment that you "loathe Sorabji.." - I think that's fine. You are clearly stating your opinion. We're all entitled to that. If someone wants to say they "loathe" some musician/composer I like, well their entitled, that's their opinion.
To me there's a world of difference between how you expressed your opinion and how Virtuosic1 expressed his.
Virtuosic1 went on to demean and belittle. That's what I take exception to.
People who TRASH other people's work, etc., that's what I have a problem with.
Jeanne W Hi Jeanne W, I guess I'll respond to these together. I agree with the first sentence. I didn't mean to suggest that. I was just being up front with my biases. Had he said the same thing about the blues, I would have thought "Too bad for him that he can't appreciate the emotional depth in simple (simplistic?) musical forms." You could say the same for me wrt New Age and most of what ends up calssified as "Easy Listening" or "Adult Contemporary". I thought he adopted a somewhat conciliatory tone with Monica K when it came to New Age music in general. I have to say I have heard nothing of the work of the composer he savaged, but most of what I have read of his musical analysis seemed considered and based on a fair bit of knowledge and experience. Doesn't make it The Truth, but makes it worth considering. If you were offended by his manner, then you were offended. I suppose that makes him "offensive". I didn't find him that way but as you rightly point out, I never engaged him directly and he didn't insult me. All that being said, the purpose of my defence of him is simple: I believe that he offered valuable lessons for those who shared his love of jazz and were able to profit from his insights. There is so much chaff on the internet particulalry on discussion forums, that any wheat should be treasured. I have also learned that one needs a certain thickness of skin to post on forums. I try not to gratuitously offend people, but I have been on the receiving end of pretty insulting stuff. I reckon it goes with the anonymity of the medium.
Without music life would be a mistake -- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Certainly there was poor behavior by a number of parties in the thread in question but I am personally of the opinion that banning Disciple is a punishment that vastly exceeds his crimes. It is probable that the majority of people on the classical forum have not seen the numerous lengthy and insightful threads that Disciple has started here in the non-classical forum and as such are not aware of his valuable contributions. I for one am prepared to look past his less than polite behavior (he is not alone in this category) in order to benefit from his thoughts on music theory, piano technique, and whatever other relevant topics he chooses to share with us. If he has in fact been banned I would urge the powers that be to revoke this punishment. The forum may be more contentious as a result, but it will also be richer for his contributions.
Marc
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hi, pastafarian:
you are right - some people's skins ARE thicker than others. I don't quite understand how anyone could NOT be offended by some of the things Virtuosic1 said. I do, however, agree with those who believe Disciple was treated harshly by some members on the classical forum. Seems to me some members went off and lunged for Disciple's jugular without much provocation. But then, Disciple returned the favor, didn't he?
As others have noted, it seems there are some pretty big egos in the classical forum and it can get pretty brutal over there. Jealousy and insecurity sometimes seem to rule. On the other hand, someone who comes onto the forum with claims of superhuman pianistical feats, is setting themselves up as a target. People are going to start wondering and asking questions.
wavelength:
Earlier in this thread I asked:
"what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?"
You asked if "the *stuff*" I'm talking about is someone saying they don't like a particular piano player, and added that "…doing without that *stuff* would reduce the discussion to triviality."
No, I was not talking about differences of opinions or likes and dislikes. I agree with you that differences of opinion can make for lively, intelligent conversations. And I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me or like the same music as me or get upset when people say they don't like or even "loathe" something I like. I'm talking about how a person expresses himself. There is a difference between a respectful discussion and disrespectful and mean-spirited one.
Jeanne W
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Originally posted by Pete the bean: We are not worthy. ??? Jeanne W
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People are projecting things and taking things too personally.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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Joined: Dec 2006
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I don't care for the controversy. Scratch that, actually I don't mind a little controversy, I just don't really have much time to properly get into it...
Anyways, I enjoyed his posts enough to print a few off and am grateful for the free information. So, his manner can get under peoples skin? That's unfortunate, perhaps a future return can be possible. But I remember him mentioning about writing a book, and I would waste no time ordering my copy if it were to happen. A book is an equitable way of sharing knowledge, without the bother of dealing with talkback and personality clashes.
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Hi, I would like to express my absolute outrage.... ... that I've no idea who Disciple is or was, and must have missed all the fun, drama and ego wrestling... Not hanging out in the right places obviously. Ah well, back to making music for me... Chris
Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...
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Originally posted by Late Beginner: ... that I've no idea who Disciple is or was, and must have missed all the fun, drama and ego wrestling... You wanna believe it: Originally posted by AJB: Without pointing any fingers, it reminds me of the old saying:
ARGUING WITH SOME POSTERS HERE IS A LOT LIKE WRESTLING IN THE MUD WITH A PIG. AFTER A FEW HOURS YOU REALIZE THE PIG LIKES IT.
:-)
A
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Yes, yes, yes, Debussy20,
Laughter is the only thing that can save us from ourselves.
BTW, when the angels are hanging out, they play Bach's Chaconne.
Ed
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Disciple was like the Marlon Brando of posters here, a mercurial genius. Now I am reduced to reading posts by the Kevin Costners and their ordinary insights.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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