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I guess we're on the same page then Disciple.

Best, John

[/qb][/QUOTE]That is correct and the gist of what I wrote. A 150 wpm typist can be taught extremely virtuosic tricks at a piano keyboard as the carry over is a quite simple adaptation to single stroke, linear technique, but control of all technical parameters and musicality is something that can only be developed through the years in all but very few special cases. [/QB][/QUOTE]


What you say makes logical sense, but has not proven true in my (albeit limited) experience.

I have had several skilled typists as students...one was a typing teacher. None exhibited any special technical ability. In fact, the typing teacher had one of the worst technical skills at the piano of any of my students, ever.

On the other hand, (no pun intended), people who have good piano technique may type more easily. The only example I have of that is myself...I was the best typist in my eighth grade class, typing 60 wpm on old clunky manual office typewriters. The closest to me was at about 35 wpm.

Johnny-Boy said......"technique is something one carries from piece to piece – and it takes years to develop."

I love Hanon in that by reading the first measure and preparing the turnaround spot, a student (any age) can do this by understanding the pattern.

Moving it into other keys, comes after knowing either: 1) all the major key signatures and scales, or, 2) by knowing the (2)tetrachord formula of a major scale.

I think Hanon is a godsend, in that when people really balk at doing his exercises, I can predict their playing future. For those who go after Hanon and pursue it faithfully, they are going to arrive at their goals sooner than most.

I attribute this comment to results in 37 years of teaching.

Hanon is POWER!

Betty

rintincop,

Could you explain what Bill Evans' arpeggios are?

Thanks,
Ed

Joejazzy,

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I'm not sure if you mean RH arpeggiates a chord while LH plays it, or is RH playing a scale that goes with the chord? For example, does 12345 mean arpeggiating each note of (say) a 7th or 9th chord in the RH?

Thanks,
Ed

As a teacher specializing in developing velocity and technical command, I couldn't recommend more the following studies in this order:

Hanon, up to the recommended quarter = 120
Mozart Piano Sonatas

Hanon, up to quarter = 150
Beethoven Piano Sonatas

Hanon, key of C, up to quarter = 200
Czerny, School of Velocity, as written, up to recommended tempo

Hanon, all keys, up to quarter = 150, both types of fingering, 1) no thumbs or pinkies on black keys, 2) same fingering as the key of C

Czerny School of Velocity, all keys, up to tempo, your choice of fingering.

Chopin Etudes, as written, up to recommended tempo
Chopin Etudes, as written, left hand duplicates right hand in unison one octave to two octaves apart.
Chopin Etudes, as written, all keys, up to tempo

Godowski-Chopin Etudes

After 30 plus years of playing I still use Hanon as a WARM up and of course in different keys and tempos plus I make up exercises based on the Hanon book. I have all the other exercise books mention here but Hanon is still the one I use more often. The most constant comment I received on my playing is how nice of a tone and touch I have and although there is so much more to accomplish and learn it was smart to invest time in the Hanon exercises. DPVJAZZ

Finally, I'm hearing a topic that appreciates and approves of Hanon.

So many ignore him, not ever having found benefits to playing these exercises chiefly because they tried one or two and found it "boring". I always thought they were fun!

I'm gleeful!

Betty

Like any artistic ideas from 200 years ago, Hanon is not outmoded, but with with logical adaptation and expansion incorporated to meet the increased technical demands of the instrument and repetorie since his day, it's still very valid today.

These Hanon threads often turn into train wrecks, but so far, this one's been very supportive, which I'm glad to see.

I started Hanon from my very first lesson, about four months ago. I took a leap of faith, and had no idea if all these hours of sit ups and push ups were going to pay off. I read in these forums that it has helped many. Some swear by it. Others swear they'll never go near it. So, every day, without fail, I did it. I had my doubts. I could make no connection between it and the simple 'baby' songs I was learning through method books, but persisted on with the thinking that the two will 'eventually' meet.

About 20 years ago, I took lessons for about a year, but quit. I learned Für Elise during that year and have played it occassionally throughout the year for the past 20 years. Having discontinued my piano studies, as expected, I never was able to play it any better than I had when I learned it 20 years ago. With my renewed interest in learning, I picked it up again this week and played it. There was one particular part (in the latter part) that I've always, and without fail, played terribly -- it was a 'fracture' that never quite healed. It wasn't from a lack of trying, but my fingers were never trained to go that fast.

So I focused on repairing that fracture this week - playing the 'difficult' measures over and over again. I'm pleased to say that this morning, I never played it better. The notes were crisp, even and clear and with the velocity that the composer intended. Still not perfect, mind you, but for me it was a revelation.

I thought long and hard about what was different this week than the past 20 years. I'd have to conclude that the only thing that is different now than in the past is Hanon. Coincidence? Maybe. But something tells me, there was a correlation.

Hanon, Czerny, scales & arpeggios, etc. are good for finger dexterity, however, don't lose track of the essence of these studies – it’s all about the MUSIC!

The lion's share of practice time is better spent studying actual pieces.

Best, John

I feel the same way, which is why I use the Hanon as written conjointly with Mozart Piano Sonatas, Hanon at increased tempi with Beethoven Piano Sonatas, then introduce Czerny, and use of Hanon in all keys as preparation for and along with the study of the Chopin Etudes. Then the Etudes themselves in all keys, left hand called upon to duplicate the right hand parts as final prep work for the Godowski-Chopin Etudes.

Bear in mind that I am not a Classical teacher. I teach Piano, Jazz Piano, and Improvisation (all instruments). Interpretation of classical repetorie is secondary to my purpose of my students building a technique that can meet any technical execution challenge that their ear poses for them while remaining completely relaxed and at ease at the keyboard, the best state to be in for the conduit of inspired improvisatory expresson to flow, unimpeeded by stress and repetitive patterns.

I love Hanon too. When I was little my teacher told me to practice Hanon at least 30 minutes a day and I hated it so much. But years later now I am picking piano back up again and Hanon has been such a great tutor. No matter what Hanon's exercises have been very useful.

With both sets of fingerings.
All keys, major and minor modes including static melodic and harmonic minor (unchanging whichever direction it's played in).
Fixed fingering: key of C fingering regardless of where the thumbs and pinkies wind up on black keys.
Adjusted (classical) fingering: key of B or Dflat fingering, no thumbs or pinkies when black keys occur.

If you really want to bring the mind into play, play them in two separate keys at the same time!

Don't set the unrealistic goal of doing them in every key everytime you play them.
Pick a plan for that practice session, say Hanon 11 through 20 in the key of F# melodic minor, and work that for 10 minutes. Or you can pick an exercise and modulate through keys, say #9 in the G diminshed scale and modulate chromatically, or by 5ths, or any interval you choose.

The idea is to get away from Hanon being played on one white key plane.

You can train long at light to moderate intensity, or heavy at moderate to maximal intensity, but you can't train long and hard.
Same goes with the piano.

The pianist is an athlete, but the fingers should be trained for speed and agility, not power and strength.
A pianist sin't trying to build a grip that can hoist 900 pound deadlifts without straps.
It takes but a few ounces of pressure to sound a key.
Like myself, my mentor is also an exponent of strength training, but neither of us directly train the forearms with wrist curls, wrist rollers, Thor's Hammer holds (or leverage wrist holds) or the like, which would be madness for any pianist who is trying to build their maximal technique.
The greates velocity is acheived through subtle, very economized movements of the fingers, a ticking of the key tops as if the wings of a hummingbird were depressing the keys many times per second, with complete ease and no stress.
Furtive muscular contraction builds stress and locks these nerves down cold! Try playing with any part of your arms flexed.
The body should be strong and have stamina, but in a relaxed way, able to instantaneously "dance" the arms to where they are needed to carry the hands, and from what position. The wrists and forearms should remain supple and relaxed to allow fr instantaneous, effortless 3-dimensional rotation.
When needed, the strength of the body imparts the force to the keyboard needed for the proper dynamics, not the flex of the forearms!
The fingers should alays remain lightly hinged at the knuckle, forming a pyramid, fingers already in contact with the key tops, ready to tickle them down, whether at 30 nps, or 1 nps.
Something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY

My mentor's occassional lean into and away from the piano isn't by accident. he's adjusting the phrasing of the aggregates by imparting body english, added weight to the hands as his hands effortless play huge 7 to 15 note aggregates in rapid succession.
Notice, there is no lost contact with the keys.

I used to do hannon and other finger exercise but I stopped doing them because I constantly come up with new things to work on. I guess my only criteria for something is "if it's something I can't do comfortably, its something that I should work on".

Hanon can be helpful in some ways but it only deal with a very specific aspect of the playing.. it doesn't prepare you for so much of the stuff that happens in actual playing.

For example. I recently did some work on "Chamelion" where LH is playing the bass line and RH is playing the head/solo.. it takes a lot of practice, a lot of Hand independence to make sure both hands stay in time... and I doubt that doing hanon will prepare you for that kind of stuff. Nor does hanon prepare you to do a block chord solo.

I guess I'd rather steal ideals from someone and work them in different keys.. because I know its something I'd be using in my playing.

I have mixed feelings about using Hanon, but it helped me a great deal when I made the transition from organ to piano at Berklee. I worked on about the first 20 exercises, all in C, but my teachers were not real keen on Hanon unless you practiced in other keys, which I was too lazy to do back then.

For me Dohnanyi Essential Exercises for piano was recommended to me by a teacher and I got much better results with that book. For a beginner, just the first 2 pages of exercises were written by a "finger sadist." The whole book is difficult and not very melodic or written like Chopin Etudes. I even had some of my advanced students work with it, and some told me the exercises were "impossible" to master. It just takes time and patience, but you have to be careful because if a student practices them wrong or too much in the beginning, they risk injuries and fatigue.

Hanon is ok, but Dohnanyi played in other keys produces faster results in finger technique and strength/independence. This is only based on my personal experience with the system and other teachers will disagree, but I still use them and they really help technique

katt

Clare Fischer has a similar etude book called "Harmonic exercises".. They very difficult to play but they are quite rewarding musically. Not only is it a technical exercise, those ideas can be used in improv context too.

Hanon, up to the recommended quarter = 120
Mozart Piano Sonatas

Hanon, up to quarter = 150
Beethoven Piano Sonatas

Hanon, key of C, up to quarter = 200
Czerny, School of Velocity, as written, up to recommended tempo

Hanon, all keys, up to quarter = 150, both types of fingering, 1) no thumbs or pinkies on black keys, 2) same fingering as the key of C

Czerny School of Velocity, all keys, up to tempo, your choice of fingering.

Disciple, this is very interesting. Could you or the other posters cast some light on these questions?

First which Hanon exercises should I practice? All of them?! Or is it up to choice?

Secondly, the Hanon reccommends the tempo between 60 - 108 and scales 60 - 120. So am I free to exceed those?

Why is it necessary to play faster anyway? IMO the technique is developed slowly with the focus on physical, rythmic and mental coordination.

If I don't develop this groundwork and sureness of technique my playing will be erratic.

I totally agree with your reccommending of Mozart and Beethoven. But I don't know what Czerny would do for me that other etudes wouldn't. Czerny is so voluminous that I wonder if it is all really up to par.

I have heard very good reports on Brahms's exercises however and as they work the playing mechanism more they might be a more effective substitute.

This would seem to represent the kind of training followed by a classical student or is it suitable for all pianists? Also how does this regimen help if the pianist wants to play occasional jazz improvisation as I do?

i was thinking, for jazz pianists, instead of working on hanon (which you'll probably not use at all in your improv as ideas).. why not work the head to tunes to "Joy Spring" , "Satellite", "confirmation", "Bebop", "Milestones (old)" in all keys? I mean it's not like there is shortage of hard jazz heads that you need to commit to memory as a jazz pianist.

Or spend that time transcribing and playing the transcription in different keys by memory.. etc. For me, I realized that there is finite amount of time in which you can practice (esp with injury), and it became very important to prioritize... and I just don't see how hanon can be in the list of things I need to work on.

Whether you're working on hanon or a transcription.. you should be getting the same kind of improvements/benefits as long as you practice them right.