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Pianobuff and Ahha Piano:

I wish my ear were good enough to where I could listen to something and know what the framework/underpinning is. My ear is simply not that good yet. If you can listen to a passage of music and say: "That's C maj7, F#7, Fmaj, G7, Am, etc" or somehow conceptualize what you're hearing in mathematical terms than your ear is good enough. I cannot do that without playing along with it on my instrument.

Here's an anecdote for you. My dad has been playing piano for years, by ear mostly, and he plays rather well, but has a certain stylized way of doing things. I used to try to explain and even show him some concepts of jazz, but just was not able to articulate it well because I just wasn't a good piano player and he had no concept of the terms that I was using to explain it.

Well I started playing more piano since then while studying more Jazz theory (LEVINE book) at the same time. After having not seen my dad in those years, I developed some repertoire and when he came down I played some stuff for him and he was knocked out and immediately committed himself to studying theory from the LEVINE book that I had given him 10 years prior.

If you can hear a passage of music and immediately do harmonic analysis on it, then you don't need the book. You're ear is good enough. Just go listen to the greats. I need to know what to listen for before I can know enough what it is to analyze it.

You're very welcome! Too many aspiring jazz pianists listen only to other pianists and perceive that there are "jazz lines", and "non-jazz" lines. Of course certain jazz pianists and instrumentalists have their signature cliches and riffs that they pattern a solo on, but jazz harmony and melody, the vertical and linear are no different than any other music.

For instance, check out the score for Ives' "Central Park in the Dark", an incredible piece written around 1908. Ives is constantly expanding his intervallic harmonic counterpoint, first voicing the strings with open augmented chords, then chords with open 4ths, then fifths, then fifths with flatted ninth roots, etc., etc. In essence, Bill Evans, to McCoy Tyner, to Keith Jarrett, to Lennie Tristano!

Jazz is all about push and note inflection, that is, the color that you impart to each individual note to shape your stretches. The piano is extremely limited in its ability to totally inflect a note. Once a note is sounded, you can't increase its dynamic, or bend it. You can't impart vibrato. All the colors that a vocalist, string player, or wind player has at their disposal is absent at the piano. What pianists do have is the ability to create differences in attack and dynamics between successive notes.

Listen to more jazz instrumentalists and vocalists, rather than just pianists. I have my students scat with solos as well a play them, paying particular attention to duplicating the manner in which the artist shapes each note, each line. The shape is more important, more indicative of jazz than its musical components, which are common to all music! What isn't common is the feel. To put this sound in your head, before you can duplicate, then emulate, then find your own voice, you must listen, listen, listen.

Improvising is more a state of mind than anything else. To enter this new state, just start "noodling." Play a theme or melody snippet that you like, then play whatever you just played makes you feel. Don't judge your noodling, just do it. And continue doing it until that's what you wake up in the morning wanting to do. When you wake up wanting to make music that comes from deep inside you, you will have entered the improvising state of mind.

virtuosic1 is right re advising you to take what you already know and learn to express it differently. And Jazz is known, in part, for pressing the boundaries of harmony, but I expect that vistuosic1 is also correct about the great master composers having used these same harmonic devices. You might find that using the pentatonic scale is also a useful device. Those notes fit comfortably above many chords.

Ultimately, tho, it may be that you'll have to let go of the sources of music which you now know and just play what you feel.

It may help to recall that Chopin loved to improvise when performing and that Bach would sometimes go to a gig with no plan at all and just sit down and start playing. Improvisation was also expected in China as far back as c.1000 years ago, when the Chinese wrote down the rules for what they considered to be their best music.

From a long-term point of view, *not* improvising is an aberration.

None of the above is meant to disparage learning. It's just that all the knowledge and skills in the world won't help you to improvise until doing that feels completely natural to you.

When I was first exposed to jazz in 1971 I decided to become a jazz pianist and never looked back or doubted that I would accomplish my goal of becoming a proficient player being able to play and solo in a group setting. My journey has taken me many places and provided many wonderful experiences all because I decided to do what ever it takes and followed it through whether I had a private teacher or took classes at college and playing with others whenever I could. I would and still go to concerts to check out what is being played and try to listen to everything and I mean everything. Once you make your mind up that this is what you are going to do your mind starts looking for ways to make it happen and after a while musical results start to flow. There are some people here posting really good advice and some it stuff you would have to pay a teacher to get but its free here so act upon it just don’t read it and dream about it. The other day I was doing a gig with a quartet and the young bass player has been studying about 2 years at the college level and he has the concepts down you know how to move from note to note and he has one of the best teachers in the country but he has never listen to the body of recordings and it shows. Yeah everything is right but there is no connection to the music and he has never heard the tunes being played by different players like Lester’s Body and Soul compared to Coleman Hawkins Body and Soul. Sure a good method or concept can show which notes come first and which chords can be better choices plus which tunes you should master but if you never listen to the music it will not matter something will always be missing. I am seeing more of that in younger players schooled in methods and concepts but they do not know the tunes. I just recently started with a new teacher and he is a professional player and educator with 30 plus years in the Boston and New York area. He studied with Charlie Banacos and with one of Lennie Tristano’s disciples and is teaching me some great stuff you know like the things people here post. I could just read it but it takes a teacher to really put it together in lesson form weekly and to check my progress to make sure I understand how to apply it correctly. Everyone is different and no one concept or method is going take you where you want to go but it is a combination of many different concepts and methods combine into your own to accomplish your goals. This was one of my most productive years playing piano and it started in July 5 05 when I purchased a new grand piano and it inspired me to play everyday a least 3 hours or more a day. In addition to 2 hrs solo piano on weds and numerous gigs and concerts plus at least 3 Sundays a month at church I have a full plate musically. I was 36 the last time I had lessons and I am 53 now. I have been deconstructing and rebuilding my approach to practice and playing and it is not easy but I have decided to do whatever it takes to become a better jazz musician. DPVJAZZ

dpvjazz,

Spot-on my friend. I agree 100%. As an amateur player for 70 years now, mostly at home and never with a backing group,here is my view.

May I say that I think the brain can store up sub conscious reactions to what you do in music, whether it be whistling, singing, or instictively knowing where fingers go on the piano keyboard to provide the sound you wish to hear....with practice! I have learnt the notes and chords by ear, purely.

I play that way and although a blind pianist can have braile to learn the theory, jazz is still a imprompu instant reaction as singing must be, together with nuances and thythm.

Don't most people have that instinctive rhythm beat in their blood? It surprises me that some cannot cope with a beat. It does take practice to 'off the cuff'and combine rhythm and melody within a set pattern of timing. I have the beat in my head and use the right or left foot to pound out that part. Or play along (I must get some special play along rhythm CD's.)

I always listen to jazz, blues and swing whilst working on my cars or computing etc. And playalong which is also good practice for ear playing in my view,

Listening is vital surely and everyone wishing to play jazz should do it constantly as a background when doing other things. The brain will absorb it for sure!

Jess Stacey was another inspiration and the other evening I played along to him on one of my many LP's. Him and Teddy Wilson of whom the latter,I met in (1978) I think are great swing pianists. Cannot match Wilson's perfectly timed up and down runs and arpegios of course.

I have a collegue in Phoenix and he always says I should visit him, he is in Automobile Engineering as I was and has been to my house in England a couple of times.

I know the feeling of playing a new Piano and I hope to aspire to a grand again soon.

Alan.

Whether you hum, sing or whistle the tunes you love I agreed that is still some of the best practice and plus it will keep your spirits up through the day when away from the piano. If you should ever be out this way please drop by and say hi and we can trade some musical ideas and stories. DPVJAZZ

LOL, I'm sorry but you are dreamer and I have seen many beginners fail with your attitude. All the talent and ambition in the world won't help you if you are not willing to work hard at practicing the things you say "No thanks!" to. I don't understand such arrogance and laziness. It seems a very American attitude these days.

If that was realy true, then every classical pianist in the world could just use swing phrasing and articultion and be a great jazz player. The reality of it is far from that.

While I agree with pianobuff's sentiment, you don't really need a teacher to learn by ear. You just listen to a lot of live music and recordings and try to pick out what's going on.

Of course, without a strong knowledge of scales, chord voicings, and basic theory, that's going to be very difficult to do.

The things pianobuff doesn't seem interested in are the tools he needs to make the other stuff possible. Aye, there's the rub.

Kreisler and rintincop,
You guys are completely missing my point!
I never said theory is not important, it is, and it is a must!! So are practicing scales chord inversions etc... I'm all for that. But again, as I had posted earlier, what I would like to find in a JAZZ teacher is someone that can demonstrate, someone that has two pianos in their studio, that way I can also learn from demonstration and ear, we can also play off of each other and make music!!
I am standing by the fact that music is a language. We first need to play it then we can learn to read it and label it theoretically. What part of this do you not understand?!!

Really?? OK, Elucidate me. I studied with Lennie Tristano for 10 years. Have transcribed thousands of choruses of Lennie, Sal Mosca, Ronnie Ball, Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz, Billy Bauer, and Connie Crothers solos. Have been teaching jazz improvisation to all instrumentalists for 35+ years. I'm all ears. Teach me something about jazz and piano that I might have missed in the last 40+ years about what jazz piano "really" is and how the notes and chords of jazz are unique to only jazz. Explain to me how the intervallic cells of Bartok's Music for Percussion, Celeste, and Strings, and Ives' Central Park in the Dark are so drastically different than the voicings and runs that many, such as yourself, feel are atypical only of "jazz". I must have missed something along the way and am ready to relearn about what jazz "really" is! This ought to be good. Unfortunately, when it comes to "jazz", you're dealing with a ringer on this Forum who won't let a completely off the wall statement go unchallenged.

RinTin, while you're at it, let's hear some of your jazz improvisation. Post an MP3 or wave file. Let me hear some of what you're talking about. Let me hear what I already know about your playing by virtue of your statement. Confirm it for me.

Pianobuff,
You may be an 'ear' player and 'ear' learner. Maybe copying by ear is what you want to do because it's easier for you. I have always advocated putting in as much 'work' into it as 'play' and you will continue to grow. That is, do the things you don't want to do as much as doing the things you do want to do.

The reason I continue to advocate learning the theory in technical terms is because everything we learn is related to something else we already know. Increasing the volume of things we know will allow us to increase (exponentially) the things we learn. It's like an acorn. It doesn't just grow into a tall oak, but a broad, and strong oak.

My point is learning is based on stuff you already know. If you don't really know anything how can you learn or retain anything new?

The problem with strictly ear players is they tend to fall into playing in a very stylized manner after a while and stop growing. I have many people say they've got a great ear and honestly most are like stone. They don't know whether they're hearing a IV chord or a V chord. If you can hear a measure of any music and intellectualize all of the DO-RE-MI-FAs, etc. then your ear is good enough. Can you do that?

Otherwise learn the theory. Then copy all the stuff you hear on records. If you just copy without knowing what you're listening to then you've got a much more difficult road to travel.

hgiles,
I am very fortunate to have a good ear for music. I am also fortunate to understand music theory. I do not play strictly by using my ear. Have I ever said this?? I've studied jazz with some pretty poor teachers IMO where they used theory only as a basis for playing jazz. I don't believe you need to learn theory first, and expecially in this way, before attempting to play jazz piano. I think that, if you do have a good ear, and I do feel if you are a true musician your ear should very well be developed, then I think you can learn by demonstration, the teacher then saying what he/you are playing by theoretical means. I definately think that inversions and scales, arpeggios etc should definately be taught, studied and practiced; did I ever say they shouldn't be? What I am refering to is the pedagogical side of teaching jazz. Especially it you are a classically trained musician, know theory, and have a good ear.
I personally think this type of training in jazz is good for the beginner too. Show them the 12 bar blues. Let them play by imitation and ear. Have them practice seventh chord inversions, the blues scale etc.. label them as such and take their training of jazz playing from there... ear first, labeling secondly and/or as you go. This way you will be developng a true musician, theory is applied and will make much more sense!

HGILES WROTE:
If you can hear a measure of any music and intellectualize all of the DO-RE-MI-FAs, etc. then your ear is good enough. Can you do that?

Otherwise learn the theory. Then copy all the stuff you hear on records. If you just copy without knowing what you're listening to then you've got a much more difficult road to travel.

My response:
Yes, I can hear solfege and notes involved when I hear music. I can take it to the keyboard and play it. But that isn't the point. Copying isn't my thing. I like original music and/or variations of composed works. I do want to know theoretically what I am playing. But the playing comes first, most of the time or it can come simultaneously with the theory.
If you are trained the way I described in my last post, then yes, you will be able to pick things out by ear with no teacher and take it to the keyboard and know theoretically what you are playing.
But if you are lazy (Rintin's words) and need to learn theory first and always think analytically when playing jazz piano, then you are developing a very limited musician. IMO.

Latin jazz styles and many fusion and modern styles use straight eighths.

You are the one who made an absolute statement therefore you are obligated to back it up with some evidence. Where are your examples of a classical pianist swinging their repetoire and being considered a jazz pianist?

" Take that same Bach invention, swing the eights, and experiment with differeing dynamic patterns. Emphasize every third note, or every fourth note. Emphasize with an accent whenever you "feel" it. That's jazz. Not the notes. Not the voicings. Jazz, is a way of playing. "

And what about improvisation, isn't that a lot of what "jazz" is about too? Perhaps you have become an absolutist in your opinions.

I have no idea as to what poitns you're trying to make just for the sake of disagreeing with me. I've played, composed, and arranged in/for jazz ensembles with artists including Roland Kirk, Buddy Rich, Phil Woods, Warne Marsh, and others, considered among the greatest jazz improvisors of all times. Spent a decade at the side of Lennie Tristano, watching, listening, and learning. Lennie introduced me to playing virtuoso pieces like the Chopin Etudes and Liszt Campanella not only in every key, but with right hand parts in the left hand at tempo, and in contrary motion. So when you start to explain to me what jazz "really" is, to me, your take, just for the sake of disagreeing with me because you heard something on my MP3 that stuck in your craw, it's extremely amusing. Why not post some of your improvisation? This is a piano forum, isn't it. Let's hear what you have to say with the music itself, instead of pontificating on subjects you have no working knowledge of, for no other reason than to just be disagreeable.

Jazz, like funk, is a state of mind. Much like the way you talk, the way you walk. Everyone has two legs, everyone locomotes. Some sashay, some trot, some limp, some stroll. It's the same with the way you approach the nuts and bolts of music. It's the same 12 notes. Everybody breathes differently. Sure, the air gets into the lungs and that's common amongst all, but some breathe very slowly, others fast, some laboriously, some very shallow. The way you breathe the notes at the piano, the breaths you take, with the same notes (air) common to every other musician dictates whether you're a jazz musician.
Listen to my MP3, if you can actually bring yourself to listen to it. The stretches are comprised of the same type of lines you'd hear in Liszt, Chopin, Debussy, Varese, Ives, Schoenberg, in essence, all music. The way I'm breathing the lines, the dynamics and envelope of each note, shaped by what comes before and after, is jazz. If you live, eat, and breathe jazz, you'll likely play jazz. If you live, eat, and breathe the music of the Classical or Romantic period, that's what will come out. The notes remain the same. The only thing that changes is the "spin" imparted on them. You can't feel what you don't hear. Sadly, this is all wasted because you won't understand any of this. You can't because you have no feel for jazz or you wouldn't have made the statements you did.

Again, the goal is to hear a phrase of music and know exactly where every note is on your instrument that way when you hear something that your mind tells you to play you can get to it faster than immediately. If I suggested that you were strictly an ear player, that was not my intention.

It sounds like you got a good enough ear to just start copying the jazz language from records. You don't need a teacher for that.

Why copy? How else would you do it? Isn't that how we learned to talk? The notes are letters of the musical alphabet. Licks are the words and sentences. Jazz is a language and like any other if you scramble the letters in any random order then you may not be forming words and sentences. This is called noodling.

No matter how much we'd like to think, even the melodies we hear in our own heads are the products of things we've already heard. Even if we think we're making something up that's new, it probably isn't.

There is nothing wrong with copying. No matter how much you do it, you won't ever have to worry about sounding too much like Oscar Peterson. I promise.

All I would like to do is find a teacher that I can learn jazz by MOSTLY watching and listening too. Having him/her show me a bass line or LH comp, have me try it, perhaps he/she playing RH while I play LH., tell me what I'm doing OR have me discover it (since I know theory) on my own. If I was to just copy someone elses playing from a recording and me trying to imitate the notes, sure, I can maybe figure it out theoretically what is happening, but it would be much easier with a teacher, and more fun. A teacher can also give me scales, inversions, etc, to practice. He/She could give guidlines as to something to compose for for him to hear at the next lesson. This is the kind of teacher that would benefit me the most.
Sounds like virtuosic1 would do! Wish he lived in the Pacific NW.
As for playing like Oscar Peterson, why would I want to do that? I would rather play like Pianobuff!

You have fast bebop chops that you dazzle with however you sound derivative. And when you aren't playing your double time runs your melodic ideas and phrasing frequently sound somewhat meandering. Maybe try working on ending phrases with some sort of resolution or creating a "punch line". More often than not the phrases just fade off... It as if you are not hearing towards the endings of your phrases. It's like listening to somebody that doesn't finish their sentances.

Isn't this jazz? At least one style of it?