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#1146900 - 02/24/08 12:14 PM Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Hallo friends,
Do you like rain? I like it very much; I don’t mean storm now, but a calming, silent rain. Sitting at the window and watching I got felt moved to express it at the piano and this night I have written it down. It’s a sentimental piece, so not everybody will like it, but if you like such music, just listen and say me your feelings and what you think about my music.
As usual I am posting the sheet music for piano and the audio files.
Don’t hesitate to give me negative or positive feedback!

Rain for piano
Sheet music:
www.4shared.com/file/38781639/2f2f4038/rain.html

MP3, piano
www.4shared.com/file/38781615/14af6e91/rain.html

MP3, another piano
www.4shared.com/file/38782143/9741868a/rain2.html
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


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#1146901 - 02/24/08 12:39 PM Re: Rain for piano
mahlzeit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Netherlands
Very nice piece, Pukino! I think once or twice you lifted the pedal too soon (because the low bass tone stops ringing halfway during the measure) but it was very enjoyable regardless. \:\)
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#1146902 - 02/25/08 05:46 PM Re: Rain for piano
hyonchingonchon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 148
Very Nice.
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#1146903 - 02/26/08 10:55 AM Re: Rain for piano
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Initially, I enjoyed this piece. The early texture really did remind me of rain.

I have two issues 1) the contrasting chordal thing didn't work for me, it comes in abruptly and then is done. That idea is never really worked into the fabric of the piece. 2) while I heard things that sounded like melodies they weren't particularly strong or notable. This piece relies on the texture so maybe melody isn't important, but if you include melodies they should always be strong. In any case I liked the first 45 seconds after that you lost me.

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#1146904 - 03/10/08 04:55 PM Re: Rain for piano
Zom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 73
Loc: United States
Excellent piece... I think you have a great bent for melody.

Chandler, I don't mean to be confrontational, but what do you mean by "strong?" If I received that comment I would be completely at a loss to know how to benefit from it. I mean personally I thought the melodies in this composition were very strong. What am I missing?

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#1146905 - 03/11/08 03:20 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Hi fellows,
thanks for your comments!
As Steve Chandler wrote that the chordal fortissimo part doesnt fit the piece for him, I must say that some people dont like it and some love it, its a matter of taste. I just wanted surprise, shock, like a sudden thunder in the rain, but not the beginning of an storm, it calms down after a while. This is the idea of it. :-)

Steve wrote: "I heard things that sounded like melodies they weren't particularly strong or notable." Thats the hardes criticism a composer can hear...
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146906 - 03/11/08 04:53 PM Re: Rain for piano
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pukino777:
Hi fellows,
thanks for your comments!
As Steve Chandler wrote that the chordal fortissimo part doesnt fit the piece for him, I must say that some people dont like it and some love it, its a matter of taste. I just wanted surprise, shock, like a sudden thunder in the rain, but not the beginning of an storm, it calms down after a while. This is the idea of it. :-)

Steve wrote: "I heard things that sounded like melodies they weren't particularly strong or notable." Thats the hardes criticism a composer can hear... [/b]
Hi Pukino,

Normally I try to be gentle, in fact normally I don't offer any criticism if I don't believe a piece has much merit. I enjoyed much of your piece and of course what I've said is strictly my opinion.

So let's talk about melody. I've studied with a composer who worked with Nadia Boulanger. He was after me to hone my melodies, because that was her biggest thing. His point was they can't be too good, so when you think you've got a strong melody evaluate it with a critical ear. Does it have a strong sense of direction? Does it have rhythmic qualities that are unique? Does it have an unexpected twist? Why not take your critical ear to those melodies and see if maybe I have a point.

Now to your fortissimo surprise, I have no problem with surprise. My point was that the surprise just came and went and didn't get integrated into the music that followed. If you're looking for ideas on how a great composer has integrated a storm into his piece listen to the storm movement of LvB's 6th. I don't expect you to rewrite Beethoven, but you can certainly get some pointers from this piece. Listen critically to how he does it, what themes does he use, what's the harmonic structure?

If you've studied Beethoven's life you know he kept notebooks that show his efforts to improve his themes. The man struggled with his melodies, but he wasn't satisfied with them until they were great. Some people like to say LvB was poor at writing melodies, that's because it was difficult for him. He wasn't like Schubert who could spin out great melodies with ease. Most composers have more in common with LvB than Schubert in regard to composing melodies, there's no shame in that. Whether you take my advice matters not to me, but it might to you.

The music business can be far more cruel than I've been. It's just something you have to get used to. Criticism is actually a good sign, it means you were good enough to warrant a comment.

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#1146907 - 03/11/08 08:24 PM Re: Rain for piano
Zom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 73
Loc: United States
I just listened to this piece again (and enjoyed it very much)

and for fun, checked out some of Steve Chandler's music on his mp3 page. I didn't like it very much. I personally (and honestly) did not find his melodies very strong, at all.

Chandler, did you even listen to this piece?

"Now to your fortissimo surprise, I have no problem with surprise. My point was that the surprise just came and went and didn't get integrated into the music that followed."

The part you talk about came back a second time.

Sounds like you were content to listen to the first minute and then criticise this guy's work without much effort. Sorry Chandler, but that doesn't "work" for me =) Come back when you've learned to be a kinder human being =)

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#1146908 - 03/12/08 10:51 AM Re: Rain for piano
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Zom:
I just listened to this piece again (and enjoyed it very much)

and for fun, checked out some of Steve Chandler's music on his mp3 page. I didn't like it very much. I personally (and honestly) did not find his melodies very strong, at all.
[/b]Thank you anyway for going to listen. Sorry you didn't find much to appreciate.
 Quote:

Chandler, did you even listen to this piece?
[/b]I've already stated my impression of the piece and yes I did listen to it, all of it, even the 2nd coming of the fortissimo surprise.
 Quote:

"Now to your fortissimo surprise, I have no problem with surprise. My point was that the surprise just came and went and didn't get integrated into the music that followed."

The part you talk about came back a second time.

Sounds like you were content to listen to the first minute and then criticise this guy's work without much effort. Sorry Chandler, but that doesn't "work" for me =) Come back when you've learned to be a kinder human being =) [/b]
Personal attacks are against forum rules, please refrain from making them. This is all getting very personal and it almost sounds as if Zom and Pukino are the same person. I'm sure you'll deny that, but if that's the case it's a violation of forum rules.

Having a section come back a second time is not the same as integrating it into the piece, especially when it's a brief 8 bars or so of music. Truly integrating that section would involve taking an aspect of the fortissimo surprise and making it a part of the rest of the piece. For more detail on how to do this refer to any 2nd year music theory text.

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#1146909 - 03/12/08 01:13 PM Re: Rain for piano
Zom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 73
Loc: United States
It could be argued your original remarks to pukino were personal also. You can't just expect people to just meekly take your remarks and not anger someone. I am honestly annoyed by behavior such as yours. I know you're probably not going to stop, but I just want you to know there are people out there who can see through you and believe what you are doing is wrong. At worst, you may ruin some people's desire to create--and that to me is tantamount to murdering someone's soul. Think it over for a while before you respond. Maybe pukino wasn't thus affected---I hope not. But just try to be more sensitive.

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#1146910 - 03/12/08 02:50 PM Re: Rain for piano
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
OK Zom, I listened to some of your improvisations, you certainly noodle with the best of them.

Rather than tell you what's wrong with your music let me tell you what's right with a piece I consider a good example. Here's a link to download the Children's Corner Suite by Claude Debussy.



Take a look at number 6, Golliwog's Cakewalk. I'll just analyze the first page for you. It starts with an easily identified motive (bars 1-2) in both hands which then turns into the principal theme (beginning at bar 10). Notice how the Cb becomes a distinct and uniquely identifiable feature. Notice how the rhythm is consistent with a syncopated motive followed by two eighth notes. I think we'll get no argument that this is strong melody writing. Now please point me to a time in any of your improvisations where you play a melody that comes remotely close to being this strong.

BTW, I'd be happy do the same for my own music.

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#1146911 - 03/12/08 04:00 PM Re: Rain for piano
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Zom,

I was curious so I went to your website and listened to the first 2 minutes of the one labeled "March 4", then listened to the first minute of the one labeled "February 27th 2008". Finally, to the first five minutes of the one labeled "October 8th 2007" -- while reading the "About Piano Improvisations" comments you wrote.

First, I found the beginning of the last two that I cited to be very, very similar. The first one was quite different. The October one contains an interesting jazz feel to part of it, although the tempo is a bit slow for jazz.

Now, a question: are you still just trying to create what I'll call "mood" for want of a better term? That is, are you still looking toward "dark sounds" -- you don't really clarify if you are moving toward other goals in your improvisation.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1146912 - 03/12/08 05:16 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Hi guys!
Whats going on here?
To Steve Chandler: Of course me and Zom are two different persons! I dont know anybody at this forum, I just posted some pieces here, thats all, I never have written something bad about anybody. I have also nothing against you. For me every piece of music consist of melodies, even in the bass line, thats why I wrote that its the hardest criticism to say the melodies are worthless, not notable. Does a music exist without melodies? I never have heard such a music.

Anyway L.v.Beethoven is my favourite composer, so I dont unterstand people who say he was poor at writing melodies. Thats nonsense. I am now listening to his string quartets and they are beautiful melodies everywhere, in all staves.
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146913 - 03/12/08 06:11 PM Re: Rain for piano
Zom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 73
Loc: United States
Sorry for doing this in your thread pukino, I know you probably are a good natured guy and not bothered by any comments here. I just get annoyed by people who think they know everything and go around lording their knowledge and opinions in everyone's face.

I did not want to draw attention away from pukino's excellent little piece. If you'd like to discuss my improvisations, please start a new thread. I'm not interested in what anyone thinks about them though. Especially not stuffed shirts who are going to try to beat me over the head with Debussy and music theory books. I like Debussy--but I'll learn from him in my own way, with my own ears.

With that I sign off from this thread.

Again, I enjoyed your piece pukino...also your sonata. Keep it up!

Regards,
-Zom

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#1146914 - 03/12/08 06:25 PM Re: Rain for piano
saerra Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 842
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hi Pukino - I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed the piece as well. I wasn't crazy about the part where... I'm not sure how to describe it (I think it was right before 2 minutes, and it started to sound more broken up or synthesized or something) - I almost thought I was having a problem with the file - it just wasn't my thing, but the rest of it was pretty awesome to listen to - thanks for posting it!

Steve - I actually appreciated that you took the time to write out your comments, and personally didn't find them harsh (of course, easy to say when they weren't aimed at me I guess!). As a beginner, I find it helpful to read an objective critique like this, to understand what things people listen for and how they see all the elements of music fitting together...

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#1146915 - 03/12/08 08:04 PM Re: Rain for piano
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
I'm almost afraid to post...

To me it sounds like a very heavily quantized MIDI file - almost like it's just playback of notation. The composition is fine but I don't sense that it was played by a human. It's far too rigid and lacking in passion and dynamic and there are several places where some crescendos would really bring this to life!!

Am I right? Is this just notation playback?

Curt

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#1146916 - 03/12/08 10:01 PM Re: Rain for piano
MissT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Quebec, Quebec
brrrr, a storm passed over this thread, but I guess it's alright now.

Really enjoy the piece. I agree that the recording is a bit stiff, if a single thing could improve it, it would be to make it more dynamic, a bit more light and free.

The second recording has too much reverb/echo to be truly enjoyed.

Maybe you could share with us how you made it. Directly on the piano, sheet or computer? Did the theme came at the very beginning or later on?
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#1146917 - 03/13/08 03:58 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Thanks guys that the attention is focused on the piece again :-)
The mp3 file is no live recording, its computer rendered, it sounds better live but I have no good conditions to record it. Thats also why I am also posting the score, so you can play it free as you like by adding your human interpretation.
This one is not difficult to play, but e.g. the sonata in c-minor I already posted here is hard to play for me although I composed it sitting at the piano :-) Be lucky not to hear me playing the 3rd movement :-) Thanks computer I am able to hear it as it is ment to be but I am sorry that its computer sounding.

To MissT: "Did the theme came at the very beginning or later on?" I dont understand what are you asking exactly, what do you mean?
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146918 - 03/13/08 04:02 PM Re: Rain for piano
MissT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Quebec, Quebec
Sorry, my english is not very good.

I mean, Rain is the title and so I guess the thematic of the piece. Did you start to make a piece about rain before the first note or did it came later on?
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#1146919 - 03/13/08 04:27 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Ok MissT. At the beginning I didnt wanted to compose this piece it was raining outdoor and I was alone at my piano and felt free to improvise and I loved the theme which was fitting the atmosphere. So I made for my personal needs a simple live recording not to forget the main theme (with many mistakes, imagine it like a sketch of a painting). And later, weeks later, one night I returned back to it, listened to it and loved it again and wrote it down and share with you. Is this you are asking?
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146920 - 03/13/08 04:28 PM Re: Rain for piano
MissT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Quebec, Quebec
Yep, that's great!

Most of the times it helps to know where a song comes from to make useful comment about it.
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#1146921 - 03/13/08 08:24 PM Re: Rain for piano
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
 Quote:
Originally posted by Pukino777:
I composed it sitting at the piano...

I am sorry that its computer sounding.
[/b]
No need to apologize for this at all! It's the composition that's important! Some of the most successful composers aren't all that accomplished as performers (not to imply that you lack in that area!).

If you have the MIDI file and are interested, I would love to tweak it up and send it through Ivory and post the results back here?

Curt

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#1146922 - 03/14/08 01:45 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Hi Curt,
thats a good idea, I am curious how it will sound through Ivory with your tweaks. I have no idea how much effort does it cost you to do it, maybe you can do also with my sonata if you like it.
I will mail you the midifile of "Rain", just send me your email through PM.
There is also one internet friend who will try to record it live, if he does it, it will be nice comparison.
I am flattered that you like to be the first virtual interpret of "Rain" :-)
Anyway Iam really not a good performer at the piano :-)
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146923 - 03/16/08 07:15 AM Re: Rain for piano
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
OK, I have some results! First I would like to thank Peter for sending his composition along to me to have fun with. \:\)

I made three mixes:
The first was his MIDI file straight into Ivory without any changes at all. I was immediately surprised how much better it sounded right away just playing back in the Steinway library! There were two locations (the LOUD sections!) where I did have to pull down the velocity levels because they clipped at +9 on my channel meters! But other than that, this version is Peter's direct MIDI file.

For the second mix I went through the entire file making changes only to dynamics. I kept the meter in place - in other words I didn't humanize it at all. My intent was to keep the pulse of the composition the way Peter wrote it. I also added a few soft pedal triggers in two or three locations for some added sparkle.

And the third one... I apologize in advance! I couldn't help but bring out the "new-age" in me by adding a few ambient elements to the music. Turn your volume down the first time you listen - consider yourself warned!!

Here are the Rain files! You can either click "Play" to listen without downloading or "Download" to copy them to your machine.

Thanks again Peter! I could do a lot more with this file but that wasn't my goal. I really just wanted to throw it at Ivory to see what would come out. To any that question the Ivory library - this should be a great example to help convince you!!

Now I am interested to hear the other person's version of a live performance of this song. I have to say that several locations of the work are extremely difficult, if not humanly impossible, to perform - especially at the written tempo!

Curt

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#1146924 - 03/16/08 07:00 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
Good work Curt!
The Ivory sound is excellent and the idea in the third version also. I like it very much, I reminds me of the atmosphere that time very well! And I dont have to explain the chordal FF-part anymore :-) Thanks Curt!
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146925 - 03/17/08 06:16 AM Re: Rain for piano
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
It was my pleasure! This tune stays in my head now. I can hear it being performed by David Lanz in the time of his "Nightfall" album.

Now, you mentioned your sonata as well? \:\)

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#1146926 - 03/17/08 02:04 PM Re: Rain for piano
Pukino777 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Planet Earth, Milky Way
I will send you the files of the sonata in c-minor Curt, hope you will like it although its different style :-)
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."
Ludwig van Beethoven
http://www.jadronmusic.co.de/

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#1146927 - 03/20/08 10:37 PM Re: Rain for piano
hotkeys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 788
Loc: Massapequa, NY
Love this version...I downloaded the music so I can try it out on my new keyboard (Casio PX-200). The only other "Rain" theme songs that come to mind is "Kiss the rain" by Yumi and "Rain" by the Beatles (written by John Lennon and Paul McCartney)
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#1146928 - 03/21/08 04:25 AM Re: Rain for piano
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Hi Pukino,

Time to comment a bit, in hopes of getting a review of my own pieces, as it seems to be the norm in this thread! (just kidding of course).

I do have several comments, and I hope you won't find me harsh, or Zom won't find me an unkind human being, for mentioning them. After all we are all here to learn and pick up knowledge and help each other and get better, right?

Subjective issues.[/b] Feel free to take them into account or disregard them altogether... There's no right or wrong really.

There are 3 things that kind of hit me with this piece. The first one was the length. With the current rendering it's almost 5 minutes long, and... there is no recognisable theme to make it exactly interesting. This goes along with the second issue which is your rhythm. It's all 1/8ths! All! There is no fermata, there is no variation except for the dotted 1/8th and the 1/16th which gave freshness but is too little, and the paused moments with the half notes, which again are counting towards 4/8ths rather than something more... interesting. Maybe it's the rendering I heard, or the computer playback, but the fact still remains that this piece works almost like a metronome in 1/8ths... And yes, there are other compositions that seem to do the same (Beethoven moonligh springs to mind), but they have other things to make it more interesting.

The third thing to consider is how you use the range of the piano. You get 88 keys to play with. Why use only the 40, plus some octaves in the bass?

It is a great idea of a piece, the title is very fitting and it works in many ways, but the above are the issues that kept me from listening a third time, cause I did listen to it twice.

Objective issues[/b]. Again you are free to dissgree, or dissregard but in these cases there is right and wrong, much stronger than the composition aspects.

Your score!

Your score is a mess! You obviously made it to create the recording in Finale (I assume), but you can actually hide elements, if you want a dynamic to be there, and also have it in playback.

* All dynamics bellow the bottom staff need to go
* All clashing elements (a dynamic on a notehead) need to be cleared
* Dynamics need to be clear. decresc. and then FF (right before the chordal, which I did enjoy, btw) is not clear. Either put FF subito, or have a big rit. above to show your intentions clearly. try it in Finale and you'll see how the human playback will change.
* This is a bit more personal, but you could go for a smaller %. This doesn't seem as an 85%, but I usually put my piano scores at 70%.
* Pedalling. If you are aiming for a live peformance, remove all pedal notation. A pianist will do this on their own. Just add Ad lib. ped. in the beginning and in the bar where you have staccato (bar 56) add senza ped.
* It is a pity and a lost page to have page 7 with 1 system. If you reduce size it will go futher, but if you don't, just move the bars further up to have only 6 pages (and of course remove the empty page 8).
* Tempo indications are only put once, above the top staff in bold lettering[/b].
* clef clashings and anything else touching anything else need to go as well
* any legato markings? I'd imagine that you want the first 2 bars with a legato slur, then the 3rd and 4th and so on. Would give a much better impression to a live performer.

Exactly like Steve, I wouldn't bother spending one hour with this post if it wasn't worth it. \:\) It's a lovely piece and a very... fresh and uncomplexed composition.

Thank you for sharing!
_________________________
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#1146929 - 03/21/08 08:03 AM Re: Rain for piano
curt88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 346
Give these versions a listen. A made small tweaks to his dynamics but left it rhythmically intact.

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Roland RD800 initial impressions
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Connected Slurs
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Recital 35 --- Call For Submissions
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Hoping for some suggestions/starting point for home keyboard
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Brass
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