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#1147638 - 08/06/08 11:02 PM Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
Hi,
This piece is composed and performed by me, ....As always any comments appreciated!

Here's the link for download.....
Images


Thanks for listening....Hope you like it

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#1147639 - 08/07/08 01:03 AM Re: Images
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Just listened to it and my first impression is that I am very impressed. I want to listen to it some more tomorrow when I'm little fresher, but this sounds quite good to me. Nice job.
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#1147640 - 08/07/08 04:05 AM Re: Images
James McFadyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Manchester UK
Good use of harmony and thematic development is carried well.

Great tone and atmosphere to the work; I love the flattened sixth cadences, really adds depth and real sorrow.

Beautiful flow of pace and rhythm. I would really love to hear a professional recording of this.

Well done, mate. If you release a CD, I'd buy it!
_________________________
James McFadyen
Black & White Editions (c/o Devilish Publishing)
NEW PIANO MUSIC DEALS - http://www.blackandwhiteeditions.com/

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#1147641 - 08/07/08 10:28 AM Re: Images
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Southern Oregon
The link doesn't initialize the download. There is a problem.
_________________________
Scott

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#1147642 - 08/07/08 10:35 AM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
Thanks 8ude and James McFadyen...Really appreciate your thoughts on the piece!

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#1147643 - 08/07/08 10:38 AM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by franzdwarak:
Hi,
This piece is composed and performed by me, ....As always any comments appreciated!

here's the link

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#1147644 - 08/07/08 10:42 AM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by ScottM:
The link doesn't initialize the download. There is a problem. [/b]
Hi Scott, I updated the link...You can try it now.

Thanks for pointing out, appreciate it!

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#1147645 - 08/07/08 11:18 AM Re: Images
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I enjoyed the atmospheric harmonies, but my enjoyment of your piece suffered by comparison with what I'd just listened to, Morten Lauridsen's "O Magnum Mysterium." The issue with your piece is that while the harmonies are beautiful I didn't hear thematic material with strong character. I realize I'm being critical at a very high level. Perhaps the hardest thing for composers is to balance what are essentially competing interests. Might not strong themes detract from the beautiful atmospheric harmony? The answer is of course, if you let it. Are strong themes even necessary when a beautiful atmosphere can be enough? Perhaps not, but for me in this case the atmosphere wasn't sufficient on its own. The harmony while beautiful wasn't unique enough to stand on its own. The flatted sixth was one stronger aspect, but there was room for more.

For the purpose of comparison here's what I'd just listened to. In terms of harmony it's not that different from your piece. In terms of thematic development and integration, this is the work of a successful professional composer, this is what you (and me) can aspire to. Some might say the comparison is not fair, the reality is all composers compete with every other living and dead composer. It's not fair, but it's the reality.

Morten Lauridsen's O Magnum Mysterium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J0O8wTzvIc

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#1147646 - 08/07/08 12:02 PM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
Steve,
Thanks for listening and I appreciate your comments.
I guess anything is fair, of course you can compare my piece to any piece that you think drives home the point u are trying to make. However, I didnt think that much when i wrote this piece, i just wrote the damn thing on the Piano itself whatever came to my mind. it definitely can take more thematic development and probably more movements in it.

I have never heard of Morten Lauridsen...I did a quick search, seems very interesting. I will give that Magnum Mysterium a listen and see if I can relate to what you are talking about....

Thanks again, appreciate it.

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#1147647 - 08/07/08 06:35 PM Re: Images
saerra Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 842
Loc: Atlanta, GA
It's not letting me download it either, is there a download limit?

I get the error:
Invalid download session. Please initialize download session again

[Edit to add:]

And I meant to ask, what's a "flattened sixth cadence"? Google didn't recognize the phrase. Thanks!

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#1147648 - 08/07/08 08:20 PM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
Please try the links now, I guess there might be a download limit to the direct link above, I have added one more link which I guess would work without limits...

thanks

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#1147649 - 08/07/08 08:36 PM Re: Images
James McFadyen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Manchester UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by saerra:


And I meant to ask, what's a "flattened sixth cadence"? Google didn't recognize the phrase. Thanks! [/b]
...think about it; think of an interrupted cadence but instead of chord 6, it's flat6. Best impact is when the flat6 chord is a 'major 7th' type.

Basically, it's a 'magical' and atmospheric alternative to chord 1.

Also works well as a flattened 2nd, which can create great modulation possibilities.
_________________________
James McFadyen
Black & White Editions (c/o Devilish Publishing)
NEW PIANO MUSIC DEALS - http://www.blackandwhiteeditions.com/

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#1147650 - 08/07/08 09:12 PM Re: Images
saerra Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 842
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks, the link worked. It was interesting to listen to. I especially liked what was happening at around 2:00 or a little after. It was pretty \:\)

And, thanks James for the explanation of the flattened 6th! I'm still *very* much a beginner, but I want to learn as much as I can ;\) Thanks.

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#1147651 - 08/07/08 11:59 PM Re: Images
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
I haven't seen the score, of course (does one exist?) but I wonder why you've called it Images in E Flat Minor - sounds pretty definitely E Flat Major for most of the time to me...
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1147652 - 08/08/08 10:32 AM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
I did use major 3rd ( note G ) thru out the piece but still the harmonies, the mood and main theme finishes with minor scale more than major. So yeah I could have called this E flat Major and still have to deal with the notes outside of Major Notes, like Minor 6th etc, Also another interesting point based on ur observation is I use the minor 3rd only twice(!!) in this piece...I will post snippets of sheet music of this piece....

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#1147653 - 08/08/08 11:17 AM Re: Images
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Maybe just title it "Images". Nice work.

Best, John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1147654 - 08/09/08 07:49 PM Re: Images
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by franzdwarak:
Also another interesting point based on ur observation is I use the minor 3rd only twice(!!) in this piece... [/b]
That would explain the aural impression of major \:\) .

I agree with Johnny-boy - just call it Images.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1147655 - 08/09/08 08:54 PM Re: Images
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Southern Oregon
It's going to sound cruel, but in these days if you put the key of a piece in the title just because it happens to be the key, you've marked yourself as a rank anachronistic amateur. It will do nothing but breed negative prejudice about your work before it is even heard.
_________________________
Scott

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#1147656 - 08/12/08 12:00 AM Re: Images
Tonic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Philadelphia
very nice solid piece of work. i liked the sections 5:50 onwards with some dark slow Octaves on the left hand. very interesting harmonies throught out the piece. would liek to see the sheet music for this piece if you got one.
noticed a little bit more sustain pedal in certain parts not sure if you deliberately played that way. but overall Well done

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#1147657 - 08/14/08 01:45 PM Re: Images
Mizzle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Philadelphia
Hello Franz,

This is my first post here, and it may be a mistake to introduce myself by way of criticism, but I assure you I mean well by my suggestions.

First, I agree with Steve that the piece is lacking a strong thematic center. This does not mean that the whole composition needs to be lyrical, however there seems to be many missed opportunities for an emerging phrase construction. This is evidenced to me by the fact that I did not leave the music with any bits echoing in my head. For a listener to enjoy the music beyond the duration of the listening experience itself, I believe it is imperative to hand the listener some sort of core element that can be replayed in the imagination with little or no effort. You have managed to leave an impression of the emotion/mood akin to the setting in a play (nice job), but I am left with no distinct image of the characters involved.

Secondly, I find the harmonic structure and contrast of consonance and dissonance to be too arbitrary for my taste. I would prefer to hear a piece like this that includes some calculated points of resolution and deviation to act as signposts along the journey, so even if I don't end up where I expected, there is some level of anticipation cultivated in the movement.

Finally, the above comments can be boiled down to the subject of form (broadly speaking), so this is what I would essentially state is the weakest aspect of the composition. If you have not analyzed scores for form and harmonic function before, I highly recommend that you try it.

Ultimately, it's your piece so do what you want to do (don't let me get in the way), but hopefully you will find my suggestions objective enough to be worthwhile.
_________________________
"Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once"

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#1147658 - 08/14/08 02:30 PM Re: Images
franzdwarak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Blue Ridge Mountains
Quite the contrary Mizzle, thats what has been the comments I have been receiving indicates on this piece. but hey the moment I posted my pieces here, i realized I am not going to make everyone satisfied and that simply isnt my goal either. There's not much I can do to that piece. It is what it is, its written, played and done. I can take your suggestion in good spirit and write a new one which i might do that involves more thematic material, But thanks anyway for listening. I am happy to say Your First Post in this forum is on my piece, there is always something postive you can look huh!

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#1147659 - 08/14/08 02:48 PM Re: Images
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Finally, the above comments can be boiled down to the subject of form (broadly speaking), so this is what I would essentially state is the weakest aspect of the composition. If you have not analyzed scores for form and harmonic function before, I highly recommend that you try it.-Mizzle

"Too much analyzing makes Johnny a dull boy"

It stands well the way it is Franz.

Best, John \:\)
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1147660 - 08/14/08 03:14 PM Re: Images
Tonic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Philadelphia
Boy, this thread is getting interesting. So let me read this Mizzle You said "so this is what I would essentially state is the weakest aspect of the composition. If you have not analyzed scores for form and harmonic function before, I highly recommend that you try it.[/b]"
What the hell is a harmonic function anyway? So one has to analyze these before starting to write music. Well, that may be the case, but what if one analyzes and sees that it lacks something and BREAKS the FORM! Hello! Havent we heard this before? Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, Schoenberg, Shostakovich and countless others!

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#1147661 - 08/14/08 04:26 PM Re: Images
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tonic:
Boy, this thread is getting interesting. So let me read this Mizzle You said "so this is what I would essentially state is the weakest aspect of the composition. If you have not analyzed scores for form and harmonic function before, I highly recommend that you try it.[/b]"
What the hell is a harmonic function anyway? So one has to analyze these before starting to write music. Well, that may be the case, but what if one analyzes and sees that it lacks something and BREAKS the FORM! Hello! Havent we heard this before? Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, Schoenberg, Shostakovich and countless others! [/b]
Hi Tonic,

Is your argument that ignorance is bliss? The purpose of analyzing music is to discover the organization that the composer has given to a work. Comparing composed works with improvised works one may very well find the composed works considerably more sophisticated. Of course you won't know without actually doing some analysis. So what is this harmonic function analysis that's been recommended? It's determining what the harmonies are in a work and how they function at both a micro (bar by bar) level and macro level (phrase by phrase to section by section). It sometimes been called Schenkerian analysis for one of it's early proponents (I hope I'm getting this right it's been a few decades). In doing this work one learns a great deal about musical organization. This approach can be used on almost all styles of music.

As for breaking the form, no break is required since there is no predefined form. This approach seeks to discover what the composer did and why it is or is not effective. It's an approach of discovery and in fact becomes a way to add to a composer's palette. I do the same thing when improvising. I'll try harmonic changes that shouldn't work or stretch one's sensibilities. When I find something that sounds interesting I'll take a moment to recreate it and examine to see what actually happened. This is the micro level of harmonic function analysis.

The next level up is the phrase by phrase. What techniques did a composer use to modulate or maybe just hint at harmonic shifts? At an even higher level is the concept of modulation scheme. What was the overall modulatory structure, how long did the music stay in one tonal center vs. others and how does this harmonic structure relate to the thematic structure.

The bottomline is analysis teaches us what other composers have done. From that we can determine for ourselves what was effective and use or extend those techniques in our own compositions.

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#1147662 - 08/14/08 04:38 PM Re: Images
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Southern Oregon
First of all, about 90% of the music posted on this forum is too unsophisticated to assign purposeful intent to any "breaking of form". That is in stark contrast to much of Mahler, Beethoven, etc.

The best way to learn artful ways of stretching the "rules" is by listening to a lot of music. The basics don't take long (I - IV - V and all that), but learning when a piece can get away with being more or less static and learning when and where to make it move organically is a learning process. Some learn faster than others.

The next best thing to listening is writing and then listening to your work and see if you find something not quite right, or something you could have done better, or what's missing.

In other words look beyond the individual harmonies and look more toward flow, anticipation and resolution of tension. Another trap for new composers is to set some accompanying figure or harmony and sit on it ad tedium. It takes real artistry to get away with that without boring the audience to death, so it should be discouraged in newer composers.
_________________________
Scott

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#1147663 - 08/14/08 04:50 PM Re: Images
Tonic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 29
Loc: Philadelphia
Scott thats too much generalization for me. Scott u said "It takes real artistry to get away with that without boring the audience to death, so it should be discouraged in newer composers."

Is there any specific piece you are referring to. To me most of what Steve or Mizzle said isnt what I listen in this piece, I see quite daring harmonic changes and thematic development within the scope of the piece, I will let Franz post his sheet music if he has one and that can be taken for analysis but you may have a point in general abut composers learning in certain ways and listening to as much as they can to expand their abilities but I am asking a question in purview of this piece. Please save generalizations for a new topic.

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#1147664 - 08/14/08 05:29 PM Re: Images
ScottM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Southern Oregon
I was speaking generally about other pieces I've heard on the forum, not necessarily this piece.
_________________________
Scott

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#1147665 - 08/14/08 05:39 PM Re: Images
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Is your argument that ignorance is bliss? - Steve

It’s not so much that “ignorance is bliss”; it’s a matter of; should I follow another composer’s idea of musical form or develop my own. Keep in mind, unlike the laws of physics, musical form is/was created by man (not God), and not an absolute. I think as long as music has an intelligible form, it matters not to imitate another’s musical design.

Saying that; I think, especially in the early years of a composer’s development, it can be constructive to study the so-called masters (but don’t over do it to the point of brainwashing). There comes a time when studying the masters can manufacture one into an automated robot.

Also, I always found it boring as hell to analyze another’s work. I remember studying the Bach fugues. I had to compose fugues following Bach fugue analysis. I ended up composing pretty good Bach – but very poor Johnny-Boy.

Best, John
_________________________
Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!

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#1147666 - 08/14/08 07:40 PM Re: Images
Mizzle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tonic:
What the hell is a harmonic function anyway? So one has to analyze these before starting to write music. Well, that may be the case, but what if one analyzes and sees that it lacks something and BREAKS the FORM! Hello! Havent we heard this before? Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, Schoenberg, Shostakovich and countless others! [/QB]
Well, for starters harmonic function is categorized into three main groups: subdominant (IV), dominant (V), and tonic (I). All the composers you have mentioned were keenly aware of these functions and spent many years painstakingly exploiting as many possibilities to be culled from them as possible. Now, as far as breaking form, every piece that has been written and ever will be written, is the manifestation of only one form, and that is it's own. Every time you write a piece it breaks the form of all other previous works, for if it didn't you would be plagiarizing another author's composition note-for-note. There is no one piece that is the Sonata Allegro, however there are many pieces that share common characteristics which can be said to follow the Sonata Allegro principle. The purpose of studying form is to grasp the toolkit of successful devices as has been so wonderfully handed to you by previous masters. You don't build computers and airplanes out of sticks and stones, you compile and reform the myriad of inventions that have been handed down through the generations, recycle what works and discard what doesn't.
_________________________
"Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once"

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#1147667 - 08/14/08 08:17 PM Re: Images
Mizzle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 86
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny-Boy:
Keep in mind, unlike the laws of physics, musical form is/was created by man (not God), and not an absolute. [/QB]
I used to think this way, until I realized that music is sound and sound follows the laws of physics, and so do I.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny-Boy:
I think as long as music has an intelligible form, it matters not to imitate another’s musical design. [/QB]
Intelligible is the key word here. Intelligible would imply that you are effectively communicating something, and as the level of complexity rises, so must your grasp of grammar and vocabulary. I didn't invent any of the words I am using here, yet I am saying something that is my own. I can be creative and write this sentence backwards, but it does not guarantee success in communication. "Communication in success guarantee not does it but, backwards sentence this write and creative be can I." This is why observing previous methods of musical grammar and usage is so important in getting your point across.
_________________________
"Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once"

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