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#1151071 - 11/03/08 05:55 AM Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
http://www.4shared.com/file/69564585/ec9a8109/Composition_1.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/69564586/7593d0b3/Composition_1.html

I linked to a midi file and the sheet music so you can see both. Tell me what you think!
I just put this together tonight over the last couple hours. It's not the greatest, but I think it could be a good start to something.
I'm open to constructive criticism, so please give advice.

Also, if any pianists are interested....currently this piece is a bit out of my reach for playing ability, so if you think it'd be fun and doable, giving me an actual recording rather than just a midi would be nice!
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Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151072 - 11/03/08 07:21 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13774
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Needs dynamics, expression, phrasing, fingering suggestions, and a clearer sense of form (is it the beginning of a sonata, a suite, a set of etudes?)

Basically, it sounds like one of those things where somebody sat down with Finale and started clicking without a real sense of what the overall musical plan would be. Make your plan clearer and it'll make a lot more sense.
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#1151073 - 11/03/08 07:43 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
BBaker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Warren, Michigan
Yes, phrasing is a big part of it, and I know dynamics and expression are hard to get in a midi recording. I can hear your melody and countermelody in there, and there is a lot going on, but it's in the early stages, right? maybe simplify a little, or a little slower. Nothing beats playing your stuff on a real piano, either. Maybe try to present the theme, then build on it untill you get to to point of what I just heard, you know? Like they say; you can throw a frog in boiling water, and he'll jump out - or, you can put a frog in warm water, turn the heat up, and he'll boil to death. All that aside, it is good, and with a little work it will be really good. Keep it up.
_________________________
"Without Music, we could completely destroy the structure of the space time continuom"
Dr. Emmett Brown

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#1151074 - 11/03/08 03:07 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
Needs dynamics, expression, phrasing, fingering suggestions, and a clearer sense of form (is it the beginning of a sonata, a suite, a set of etudes?)

Basically, it sounds like one of those things where somebody sat down with Finale and started clicking without a real sense of what the overall musical plan would be. Make your plan clearer and it'll make a lot more sense. [/b]
Haha I know I need dynamics and stuff, what's there basically....well was exactly what you said it sounded like. I opened up Sibelius and decided on a key and a general feel and went from there. I was planning to add dynamics once I finish all the notes.
I honestly don't know what form this is a part of. It seems kind of like an Etude, but I could also see the first movement of a Sonata as well.


 Quote:
Originally posted by BBaker:
Yes, phrasing is a big part of it, and I know dynamics and expression are hard to get in a midi recording. I can hear your melody and countermelody in there, and there is a lot going on, but it's in the early stages, right? maybe simplify a little, or a little slower. Nothing beats playing your stuff on a real piano, either. Maybe try to present the theme, then build on it untill you get to to point of what I just heard, you know? Like they say; you can throw a frog in boiling water, and he'll jump out - or, you can put a frog in warm water, turn the heat up, and he'll boil to death. All that aside, it is good, and with a little work it will be really good. Keep it up. [/b]
Yeah the midi actually is supposed to be playing about 20-30 bpm's slower....Sibelius didn't give me the option of speed and I don't have a midi editor right now. Like I said, this is a very bare bones. Just something I came up with last night. And that part was definitely rather difficult, I was thinking that I should make that part a middle section and build to it. I also might change some of the notes right at the beginning in the bass to make them flow a little better.

How do I add dynamics to a midi? I didn't know you could. I know how to add the dynamic signs in Sibelius, but will the midi file follow those signs?
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151075 - 11/03/08 05:10 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
ZPomeroy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 529
Loc: australia
right click on the page in sibelius and go down to text, and there should be a box saying expression, click on that, then click where you want the dynamic, then right click where the flashing indicator is and a boz will come up with what dynamcs you can ptu there

Zac
_________________________
"I don't think I handle the notes much differently from other pianists. But the pauses between the notes - ah, there is where the artistry lies" - Artur Schnabel


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#1151076 - 11/05/08 04:13 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
Okay. Here's the finished product note wise. I still need to add all dynamics and such, but the notes themselves, I think, are done.
Also, I saved the midi at a slower tempo, the one I originally intended. I'm liking the piece so far and would certainly appreciate more advice!

http://www.4shared.com/file/69841047/596add4e/untitled.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/69841055/ae7f8d23/_2__Composition_1.html


Again, I'm giving midi and sheet music so you can see both.
And, as far as form goes, I'm thinking this is closest to an Etude, yes?
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151077 - 11/05/08 07:24 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
BBaker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Warren, Michigan
I have a question: I'm not very good with computers, and I have a piece that I would like some feedback on also......how do you put a pdf. file on a posting? Like I said, I am very new to this kind of stuff, and cannot figure it out. (I'm at work, and I don't think the IT guys would appreciate helping me on something I shouldn't be doing anyway!!)
_________________________
"Without Music, we could completely destroy the structure of the space time continuom"
Dr. Emmett Brown

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#1151078 - 11/05/08 07:29 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
BBaker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Warren, Michigan
Oh by the way, it sounds much better. Bach comes to mind. I don't know if thats a little off, but it sounds like a fugue or something.
_________________________
"Without Music, we could completely destroy the structure of the space time continuom"
Dr. Emmett Brown

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#1151079 - 11/05/08 10:51 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
First, look at this thread for how to convert files:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/41/719.html

Then you will need to fine a place to host the file. 4shared.com and box.net seem to be some of the more popular ones to use around here, but just google around for free file hosting sites and dozens will turn up.
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What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#1151080 - 11/05/08 12:30 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
BBaker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Warren, Michigan
Thanks alot 8ude! I finally got it. I just posted it as Composition feedback. I really appreciate your help.
_________________________
"Without Music, we could completely destroy the structure of the space time continuom"
Dr. Emmett Brown

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#1151081 - 11/05/08 01:02 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by BBaker:
Oh by the way, it sounds much better. Bach comes to mind. I don't know if thats a little off, but it sounds like a fugue or something. [/b]
Well, I believe a fugue has four voices, and the main melody is always represented in some form in one of the voices, so it's not a fugue, but it does have a fair amount of counterpoint so I could see it sounding like Bach. Thanks!
Now I just need to spend the time to add dynamics to the piece. I somewhat already know how they'll go, but it'll take awhile to go through and figure it all out.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151082 - 11/05/08 01:21 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Well, I believe a fugue has four voices, [/b]
Not necessarily - I've seen fugues from 2 to 6 voices...

and the main melody is always represented in some form in one of the voices [/b]
Again, not necessarily. Consider sequence passages...

FWIW, I haven't listened to the piece - firewall restrictions at work - I'll try to give it a listen at home sometime...
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#1151083 - 11/05/08 04:37 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by 8ude:
Well, I believe a fugue has four voices, [/b]
Not necessarily - I've seen fugues from 2 to 6 voices...

and the main melody is always represented in some form in one of the voices [/b]
Again, not necessarily. Consider sequence passages...

FWIW, I haven't listened to the piece - firewall restrictions at work - I'll try to give it a listen at home sometime... [/b]
I didn't know their were fugues with 2 voices. interesting.
I haven't studied fugues yet so I didn't know what makes a fugue. I'm only in semester 2 of theory and fugues are 4.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151084 - 11/05/08 10:32 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
William A.P.M. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Ecuador
Composition is something one must show genuine interest in. However, I will have to agree with Kreisler on the whole "clicking around on Finale" idea. Do not take in a wrong way, but I guess dynamics, and phrasing are things which you will learn how to incorporate in your future compositions much better.

Even atonal and serial music have phrasing and way more dynamics than tonal, yet I believe that if you are indeed composing with a key signature and you plan to move around this key, you will need excellent training to write good melody, good harmony, and phrase your lines better. You have a long way to go. I've been composing for 8 years, and it is never easy even when you know what to do. I wish you the best always! =)

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#1151085 - 11/06/08 12:47 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
 Quote:
Originally posted by William Penafiel:
Composition is something one must show genuine interest in. However, I will have to agree with Kreisler on the whole "clicking around on Finale" idea. Do not take in a wrong way, but I guess dynamics, and phrasing are things which you will learn how to incorporate in your future compositions much better.

Even atonal and serial music have phrasing and way more dynamics than tonal, yet I believe that if you are indeed composing with a key signature and you plan to move around this key, you will need excellent training to write good melody, good harmony, and phrase your lines better. You have a long way to go. I've been composing for 8 years, and it is never easy even when you know what to do. I wish you the best always! =) [/b]
Did you not read my post? These are just the notes, not anything with dynamics yet. I do plan to add dynamics tonight or tomorrow, but I just got the notes down first.
And I like using key signatures...I don't know enough theory to work well without one. That'll come over the next couple semesters of theory. :].

I'm also planning to right now, after playing just the melody, to re work some parts so they're more fingerable and sound better.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151086 - 11/13/08 09:46 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11704
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I think you've got a good start here. I recommend that you try playing it on the piano though to make sure it is playable, and make any adjustments to that as needed.

Also, I'd like to hear more of a recurring motive or melody. It seems that your main focus is on rhythm which is fine, but there needs to be one more strong element for the listener to grab onto, either harmony or melody. Most great works have 2 of the 3 elements prominent. Giving a clear form is more necessary when writing pieces that do not follow conventional (for a lack of a better word) melodic and harmonic structure.

I think the hardest thing about composing is the tendency to make things overly complicated.
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#1151087 - 11/16/08 04:00 PM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
Yeah, this piece was just me messing around in Sibelius. There's a number of things I'd need to change to make it playable now that I've gone through and done a little readthrough of it. There was one spot where I ended up needing to reach a ninth between 2 and 5....a little difficult.
I might come back to this sometime and add a better melody and perhaps more onto the beginning to make it more of a build.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1151088 - 11/17/08 11:43 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2726
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I'm with Kreisler on the clicking about Finale or Sibelius idea. As a composer the one thing I strive to avoid is the piece without a cause. The cause can be a rhythm idea, inspirational words, harmonic progression, or (gasp!) a melody. I worked with a local composer who had taken lessons from the world renowned Nadia Boulanger in Paris. He kept harping on melody. The melody of a piece cannot be too strong, too memorable, or too expressive. The only way to get good at writing melodies is to practice it. Write something, then make it better, then make it better still. Then show it to someone who's knowledgable about such things and expect to hear some criticism. Compare your melodies to the masters. Then go back to your revised melody and make it better yet.

There're a lot of formatting isues that I could comment on about your piece particularly regarding the rhythm. It's apparent that you're overreaching and frankly that's OK. I'd rather see you striving to make your music interesting. However, right now I believe you would be better served to concentrate less on building and more on the building blocks.

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#1151089 - 11/21/08 03:50 AM Re: Beginnings of a composition in C#m
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
thanks for the comments on where to start. Like I said, this basically was just me screwing around in sibelius and I came out with something I thought could be a good start to something.
Currently I'm working on a piano Sonata that I'll post here when I get the first movement done. I've written a couple other pieces that I wrote first on the piano...but I haven't notated either of them yet...even though they both are pretty decent.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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