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#1152288 - 02/20/06 01:27 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
#1 - hogwash, why should the government get even a $30 piece of the action. They're already robbing us blind through taxation.

#2 - you must be living in fantasyland.

#2a - Interesting, but has nothing to do with this debate.

John
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#1152289 - 02/20/06 01:32 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
1. You seem to fail to realize that the only (technically read: "primary") way the government makes money is through taxes. In this case, it's not even a tax...it's a fee for a service. That's even more than reasonable, comparatively-speaking.

2. You clearly missed the point of what I said. (Finish the sentence...maybe you'll figure it out... ;\) )

2a. I'm not debating anything, just pointing things out you may have overlooked or perhaps never thought of. ;\)
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#1152290 - 02/20/06 01:43 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
And the government manages our fees so well considering the national debt is only a little over 8 trillion dollars and growing 2.2 million per day. Now that's reasonable.

John
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#1152291 - 02/20/06 09:37 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
The only time an artist really needs a lawyer with regards to a label is during the signing of a contract, if the individual does not trust the label, or does not understand "normal business practices" (which seems to happen quite a bit with musicians until they get burned a couple times). Two things, now: 1. If you don't trust the label, why work for them? and 2. What you would normally consider needing a "lawyer" for can easily be accomplished by a good agent (contracts, etc).

The only time you really need a lawyer is if you want to sue the label....
It might be helpful if you disclose how you've come to these conclusions. Have you ever had a record deal? A publishing deal? Anything? Have you ever used the services of a lawyer for music-related business? Have you ever had an agent? Upon what basis are you making these statements?
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#1152292 - 02/20/06 09:43 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
I've copyrighted a couple hundred tracks. That $30 multiplies quite quickly.

Besides these government monopolies annoy the hell out of me. I can just imagine all the screw-ups that will occur if one ever needed the original manuscript from the copyright office for a lawsuit.
It's certainly not a perfect system, but it is without a doubt the best system in the world. Try being an artist in China where there is no copyright protection at all. The glass isn't half-empty, it's half-full.
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#1152293 - 02/20/06 11:00 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by SteveY:
 Quote:
I've copyrighted a couple hundred tracks. That $30 multiplies quite quickly.

Besides these government monopolies annoy the hell out of me. I can just imagine all the screw-ups that will occur if one ever needed the original manuscript from the copyright office for a lawsuit.
It's certainly not a perfect system, but it is without a doubt the best system in the world. Try being an artist in China where there is no copyright protection at all. The glass isn't half-empty, it's half-full. [/b]
That argument is as old as the hills. Just because something exists that's worse, doesn't mean we have to settle with what we have.

Donít feel so bad you lost your eye son, I know a man that lost both eyes and a foot. Thanks dad, I feel so much better now.

Besides the majority of workers in China only earn our equivalent of 25 cents per hour. It would take them months to earn enough to copyright one song.

John
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#1152294 - 02/20/06 12:57 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
It might be helpful if you disclose how you've come to these conclusions. Have you ever had a record deal? A publishing deal? Anything? Have you ever used the services of a lawyer for music-related business? Have you ever had an agent? Upon what basis are you making these statements?
[/b]
Ah, adults and their constant disbelief and need of proof. (This is why I hate teaching adults...so cynical, skeptical, closed-minded...they think they know everything.)

Fine. I won't tell you everything about me, but I will tell you this: I'm an internationally published poet working on my first novel deal. I used to be a part of a jazz band that put out a couple CDs (locally). I wasn't the leader of the group, but I took care of the business side of things. I went to school for mechanical engineering, but wound up getting a dual-degree in that and business-marketing. I use the latter half of my degree and not the former.

I've consulted with three non-profits in Philadelphia. One was a retail venture, one was the legendary fight club used in the "Rocky" films, and the last was a small local record label trying to help urban kids "get heard". I got the consulting job for the last venture because of my work with my university's own record label and recording studio.

This is where I'm going to stop. I think the above should be sufficient, even for an adult.


Besides the majority of workers in China only earn our equivalent of 25 cents per hour. It would take them months to earn enough to copyright one song.
[/b]
This, of course, excludes the purchasing power parity of money....

That argument is as old as the hills. Just because something exists that's worse, doesn't mean we have to settle with what we have.[/b]
You're absolutely right, but do you have any idea what would happen to the U.S. if the government stopped charging us in taxes and fees?

And the government manages our fees so well considering the national debt is only a little over 8 trillion dollars and growing 2.2 million per day. Now that's reasonable.[/b]
National debt isn't always a bad thing...in fact, sometimes it's very good. Take an economics class sometime. You might learn something. (Hint: Right now, having a debt is not such a bad thing.)
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#1152295 - 02/20/06 01:22 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
OK Johnny Boy... a few questions:

1. So are you saying that the government should offer copyright registration, archiving & retrieval free of charge?

2. Are you aware of any copyright cases where the government dropped the ball?

3. How would you improve the system?

One thing that is not in dispute are the record companies that have attempted or succeeded in taking advantage of artists, songwriters or producers who have filed baseless copyright infringement lawsuits, or consumers who have stolen copyrighted music. Where our government has acted irresponsibly on this is a mystery to me. Oh, wait... you're the guy who has the $1000/hour attorney. You're obviously the expert here...
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#1152296 - 02/20/06 03:31 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Nothing I get from the government is free. Iíve already paid tenfold for any service they could offer me. Iíd rather by-pass them completely. However they make the laws and Iím a law abiding dude.

Sorry, I told you once before I didn't actually hire the lawyer. I was just checking out the going rate at the time. Do often have these memory lapses?

No Iím not aware of any specific cases. But Iíve had many encounters with the copyright office and I can say itís certainly a chaotic and unorganized place Ė and theyíve made many mistakes.

How would I improve the system? Start allowing other means of copyright to be used in court.

John
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#1152297 - 02/20/06 08:39 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
Nothing I get from the government is free. Iíve already paid tenfold for any service they could offer me. Iíd rather by-pass them completely. However they make the laws and Iím a law abiding dude.
Actually, I doubt you have. The infrastructure of our cities and towns costs billions of dollars. Every sidewalk, road, sign, streetlight, maintenance worker, policeman, firefighter, etc. is paid for by the government (both local and federal). Unless your income is very large and are taxed accordingly, you haven't paid for the benefits you receive.
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#1152298 - 02/20/06 09:19 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by SteveY:
 Quote:
Nothing I get from the government is free. Iíve already paid tenfold for any service they could offer me. Iíd rather by-pass them completely. However they make the laws and Iím a law abiding dude.
Actually, I doubt you have. The infrastructure of our cities and towns costs billions of dollars. Every sidewalk, road, sign, streetlight, maintenance worker, policeman, firefighter, etc. is paid for by the government (both local and federal). Unless your income is very large and are taxed accordingly, you haven't paid for the benefits you receive. [/b]
There are millions of people paying for these services. If you have a thousand people paying for a loaf of bread - I think charging them each $10 is a little overkill.

Besides government is well known for their extravagant waste and fraudulent practices. Not to mention all those people that are allowed to milk the system.

John
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#1152299 - 02/20/06 11:10 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Iíd rather by-pass them completely.[/b]
While you're at it, let's just disband the government all together. Why not? Afterwards, you can always claim, "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

Do often have these memory lapses?[/b]
I think this statement ribs itself without any extra help. I just wanted to point out the irony of it (some might call it "poetic justice" :p ) for the benefit of all. ;\)

How would I improve the system? Start allowing other means of copyright to be used in court.[/b]
1. There is only one means of copyright...upon creation, copyright automatically exists.

2. Understanding item #1, I'd like to see a restatement with some actual ideas, rather than the standard, "Let's just do something else."

Unless your income is very large and are taxed accordingly, you haven't paid for the benefits you receive.[/b]
And even then, how do you put a price tag on the safety and security of your nation? (The annual Defense budget is around $260 billion dollars...I'm pretty sure nobody's currently paying that kind of money in taxes on their own.)

Besides government is well known for their extravagant waste and fraudulent practices.[/b]
You're really not aware of how the government purchases, are you? (I take statements like this to be "rumored truth" that is not factual...usually spread like a message-board virus.) I beg of you give me one instance of extravagant waste and fraudulent practices that is both provable and was the result of government and not of a singular individual/group later tried and found responsible.
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#1152300 - 02/21/06 06:05 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
I finally figured it out Derulux. You either work for the government or youíre getting government handouts. BINGO!

Rule #1:
Never get in an argument with a bureaucrat.

John
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#1152301 - 02/21/06 12:02 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Ah, I've got it. You're a liberal! (In all honesty, I kind of knew, but this solidifies it.)

Every time a liberal starts losing an argument (which usually happens quickly, because their argument is rarely based on fact in the first place), they try to change the subject, frequently attacking the individual who is undermining their "attempted wisdom" rather than directly addressing the issues.

Rule #1: Never get in an argument with a liberal.

Rule #2: If you must get in an argument with a liberal, see rule number one.
_________________________
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#1152302 - 02/21/06 12:13 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Ah, I've got it. You're a liberal! (In all honesty, I kind of knew, but this solidifies it.)

Every time a liberal starts losing an argument (which usually happens quickly, because their argument is rarely based on fact in the first place), they try to change the subject, frequently attacking the individual who is undermining their "attempted wisdom" rather than directly addressing the issues.

Rule #1: Never get in an argument with a liberal.

Rule #2: If you must get in an argument with a liberal, see rule number one. [/b]
Libertarian Ė mostly. How you concluded a "liberal" is beyond me. Are you a socialist?

Losing an argument? Only in your mind's kind.

I decided I'll let you have the last word on this debate - since it's not going anywhere.

John
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#1152303 - 02/21/06 01:37 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
Ah, adults and their constant disbelief and need of proof. (This is why I hate teaching adults...so cynical, skeptical, closed-minded...they think they know everything.)
Why all the hostility? I asked you a few questions and you respond with hostility. Does that mean your position can't stand on it's own? I think someone once posted the following on this board:
 Quote:
Every time a liberal starts losing an argument (which usually happens quickly, because their argument is rarely based on fact in the first place), they try to change the subject, frequently attacking the individual who is undermining their "attempted wisdom" rather than directly addressing the issues.
Apparently that applies to non-adults too.

And yes, I'm an adult. I was under the impression that we were discussing entertainment law. Is that something that only non-adults can understand? Or are you the stereotypical youth that has everything figured out? By the way, I may not be as old as you think...

Since you seem to have the world by the tail, I won't address this to you, but to the others that might be interested:

An attorney's job is to protect his/her client's interests. Therefore, by definition, an attorney retained by a record label, publishing company, etc. is NOT there to protect you, but his/her client. Get your own attorney. Make sure they have entertainment experience. Better yet, get a referral from someone who has been around the block a few times (yes, probably an adult).
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#1152304 - 02/21/06 01:54 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
"An attorney's job is to protect his/her client's interests. Therefore, by definition, an attorney retained by a record label, publishing company, etc. is NOT there to protect you, but his/her client. Get your own attorney. Make sure they have entertainment experience. Better yet, get a referral from someone who has been around the block a few times (yes, probably an adult)."-Steve

Very well said!!!
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#1152305 - 02/22/06 10:54 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2764
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Why am I reminded of Islamic outrage at Danish cartoons? There is no reason to be emotional about discussing these issues.

Much as I would like to engage in a political discussion these off topic discussion are not allowed at PW because there have been ugly disputes in the past. Take it to that other forum or the new coffee room.

What we're talking about is a service our government offers to protect intellectual property, copyright. There is no way to privatize this service. The $30 service fee represents an investment in your work. A private business would probably charge several hundred dollars, simply because it could. That's called elasticity of demand and the amount charged would represent the price that would yield maximum profit. It would have nothing to do with the actual cost of providing the service. The way our government is currently operating there would be no competition to drive down the price because only one company would be awarded the "no bid" contract.

As for this argument I'll note that Johnny was the one who started the personal attack by concluding, "You either work for the government or youíre getting government handouts." rather than answering Derulux's specific arguments. Personal attacks will get you banned from this forum, please refrain.

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#1152306 - 02/22/06 11:54 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
You're absolutely right, Steve. Let's keep it on point.

 Quote:
There is no way to privatize this service.
Actually there have been attempts at this, although I don't know whether these companies are still in business or whether this has ever been tested in court. When I lived in LA in the early 1990's I was aware of a service (called "the vault" or similar), that basically functioned as a secure archiving service should the need ever arise to defend a client's copyright. The service was roughly half of what the government was charging at the time. The whole thing made me nervous as the company's longevity couldn't be guaranteed. I've always opted for the tried-and-true method.
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#1152307 - 02/22/06 12:13 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by SteveY:
You're absolutely right, Steve. Let's keep it on point.

 Quote:
There is no way to privatize this service.
Actually there have been attempts at this, although I don't know whether these companies are still in business or whether this has ever been tested in court. When I lived in LA in the early 1990's I was aware of a service (called "the vault" or similar), that basically functioned as a secure archiving service should the need ever arise to defend a client's copyright. The service was roughly half of what the government was charging at the time. The whole thing made me nervous as the company's longevity couldn't be guaranteed. I've always opted for the tried-and-true method. [/b]
Yes, I've heard of these services, but as Derulux pointed out, the courts don't recognize other means of copyright - and there's the problem. I could go down town and have my manuscript notarized for $5. Why doesnít the system recognize that as a copyright equivalent?

All the government copyright proves is on a particular date you declared the work to be your property. You can do that just as well using a notary.

John
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#1152308 - 02/22/06 12:40 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
Yes, I've heard of these services, but as Derulux pointed out, the courts don't recognize other means of copyright - and there's the problem.
Derulux is the guy who thinks you don't need an attorney to sign a record deal. I wouldn't put much stock in what he says.

As to your point, I don't think a court has ever ruled that such a service is inadmissable. But again, I wouldn't personally use such a service -- not because of the risk of inadmissability, but because of the risk of the company going out of business.
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#1152309 - 02/22/06 06:43 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Yes, I've heard of these services, but as Derulux pointed out, the courts don't recognize other means of copyright - and there's the problem. I could go down town and have my manuscript notarized for $5. Why doesnít the system recognize that as a copyright equivalent?

All the government copyright proves is on a particular date you declared the work to be your property. You can do that just as well using a notary.[/b]
Ever lived in a small town where the notary is a close friend of yours? Well, let's say you and that close friend decide to take it to a copyrighted work, and the notary notarizes a forgery and pre-dates it so that the date is earlier than the filed copyright of the document you're contesting.... This is just one of the reasons there is only ONE way to register your copyright. (Note: You keep saying you're "getting a copyright" from the government. You're not. Copyright exists from the moment of creation. What you're doing is registering that copyright and putting it on file.)

Derulux is the guy who thinks you don't need an attorney to sign a record deal. I wouldn't put much stock in what he says. [/b]
That's not what I said. I'll thank you kindly to stop misquoting me.

There are two types of artists who need lawyers when signing a record deal:
1. Those ignorant of contract law, contracts in general, and/or the business into which they are going. (This could very well be a large group, and to them I would recommend that, if they do not trust their agent who brokered the deal, they should get an attorney and a new agent.)

2. Those too lazy to read the damn contract.

As to your point, I don't think a court has ever ruled that such a service is inadmissable. But again, I wouldn't personally use such a service -- not because of the risk of inadmissability, but because of the risk of the company going out of business.
[/b]
:rolleyes: NONE of you have gone to the website I provided. It's clear you're continuing to argue that which you assume is true, but really don't know what you're talking about. :rolleyes: again

These things (notary, mailing the document to yourself in a sealed envelope, etc.) USED to be allowed in court. Then, when the law was changed (nearly 30 years ago), due to more than just the one reason I mentioned above, these methods were no longer acceptable or admissible in court.

Now, the ONLY WAY you can even go to court to seek compensation (in this country) is if you have registered and filed your copyright with the US Copyright Office. You can go to court anytime you want, and even prove you created the document first (via one of the other methods), but you are not protected so far as to seek compensation until you have registered and filed with the Copyright Office. (This is probably the seventh or eighth time I've said this, and yet it is clear that very few have understood it.)
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#1152310 - 02/22/06 11:16 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
 Quote:
These things (notary, mailing the document to yourself in a sealed envelope, etc.) USED to be allowed in court. Then, when the law was changed (nearly 30 years ago), due to more than just the one reason I mentioned above, these methods were no longer acceptable or admissible in court.
Prove it.

 Quote:
Now, the ONLY WAY you can even go to court to seek compensation (in this country) is if you have registered and filed your copyright with the US Copyright Office.
From the US Copyright website:
 Quote:
In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection.
 Quote:
I'll thank you kindly to stop misquoting me.
Where did I misquote you? Are you not saying that there are some people who do not need an attorney when signing a record deal? Oh, and I haven't seen anything from that could be described as "kindly"...

 Quote:
Those ignorant of contract law, contracts in general, and/or the business into which they are going.
Have you ever seen an actual record contract? Don't bother responding -- I already know the answer.

 Quote:
if they do not trust their agent who brokered the deal, they should get an attorney and a new agent.
You're assuming that those are two different people.

You're so "green" that you don't know what you don't know. And that's too bad, because while others at your stage in life are learning from those who have experience, you're too busy spouting off about things you know very little about. Quite a shame...
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#1152311 - 02/23/06 12:01 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Prove it. [/b]
Well, this proves that you clearly don't know anything about US Copyright Law, and certainly did not check out the link I offered. Normally, I would not do this, but since you've been rather callous from the beginning, here is the proof you needed, from the source I've already pointed out (the US Copyright Office itself):
US Copyright Office FAQ (specifically queued to your question, so there can be no confusion...hopefully...)

From the US Copyright website:[/b]
*laughs* Well, at least you did some homework.... What you have written is correct (and I should certainly hope so, since you copy-and-pasted it), but you clearly don't understand its implications. "Protection" and "ability to seek remedies in a court of law" are NOT the same thing. (This should be cleared up when you check the FAQ link I provided.)

Don't feel bad...about 85-90% of Americans do not understand copyright law at all, or at best, only understand the old copyright laws.

 Quote:
You're so "green" that you don't know what you don't know. And that's too bad, because while others at your stage in life are learning from those who have experience, you're too busy spouting off about things you know very little about. Quite a shame...
You'll forgive me if I laugh at this. After failing to understand copyright law, I cannot take much of anything you say seriously. And if you consider yourself to be among "those who have experience," well, people are certainly allowed their own delusions. If anybody else considers you among "those who have experience," God help "the rest of us"....
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#1152312 - 02/23/06 09:26 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
Your link proves nothing. All the FAQ states is that there's no provision in the law for "poor man's copyright". In other words, the law is silent. That means that it's up to a judge to interpret the law in a case brought before him. I don't believe the "poor man's copyright" has ever been tested. You claimed that it was OK until the law changed 30 years ago. Simply not true. It's never been addressed legislatively. That's what I was asking you to prove -- and you haven't.

But that's OK. While you're racking up another 1500+ posts in only 6 months time telling people everything you think you know about the music business, I'll be doing actual work in my studio (yes, the one I paid for from doing music), then coming home to my house (the one I own from doing music). Of course, there's nothing wrong with being active on a forum like this. The tragedy is that in ten years, if you're lucky, you'll start to figure out how ridiculous your behavior was and it will be late in the game for you to get going in a career.
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#1152313 - 02/23/06 09:30 PM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Your link proves nothing. All the FAQ states is that there's no provision in the law for "poor man's copyright".
Ok, I'm done being nice. Read the following (taken from the last link I gave you) and get a clue. This is my last post on the subject.

No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics[/b]
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Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1152314 - 02/24/06 12:01 AM Re: ?????????HOW??????????
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
adventures in missing the point...

I'm done with you.
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