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Composers do you think we will have women composers equal to Leonard Bernstein and Marvin Hamlisch one day? Grandmother, Sandy B

What do you mean by "equal"?

"Equal" in skill, or "equal" in fame? The two haven't always gone together.

Pianojerome...A woman, or plural, composer as famous as these two? Same level of fame. Any thoughts? As my law professor would say" Shall we continue without nagging on each word?" Leave the nagging to the women as we excel at this concept and have the market cornered. Sandy B

The word is important, because there have already been female composers who wrote music as good or better than that of Bernstein. The question of fame is a social question, not necessarily a musical question.

Fame is already a difficult question, anyway, with classical music -- it's true that women today are much more accepted in the professional world, but how many male composers have achieved wide fame, on the scale of Bernstein or Beethoven, in classical music in recent years? Not many -- there are many who have gained fame, but their fame is basically on the same level as all of those female composers -- those who are looking for the music will find it.

To be honest, I have no idea who Hamlisch is -- I have no recognition of his name. Judging from your other examples -- Bernstein, Cole Porter, Gershwin -- I'd guess he's a tin pan alley type. He's not one of the universally famous classical composers, like Mendelssohn or Beethoven. Nor, for that matter, is William Bolcom or George Crumb.

Although, Bolcom and Crumb are certainly famous in their own rights -- to people who seek out and listen to contemporary "classical" music -- just as, I'm sure, Hamlisch is well known to people who seek out his genres of music. In the same way, those who seek out female composers will undoubtedly come across such well-known names as Fanny Hensel (Mendelssohn), Amy Beach, Clara Schumann, Elisabeth-Claude Jacquet de la Guerre....... there have been biographies written on at least the first three, and they certainly wrote good music. I'd recommend listening to "Das Jahr" by Fanny Hensel-Mendelssohn and the harpsichord suites by Elisabeth-Claude Jacquet de la Guerre.

Marvin Hamlisch gets credit for 40 film scores. He was the youngest to enter Juilliard School of Music in New York ever at 8 years old, piano. He is currently pops conductor for the NSO and The Pittsburgh Symphony. Bernstein taught Master Classes at Juilliard, West Side Story film score credit, very respected conductor of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, on and on. Women are becoming more and more educated in music composition, arranging,etc and I want them to come up to bat too the same as men. This is my point. Everyone knows that we have had many women composers in the past. We are not talking about the past we are in the now. Woman have come a long way and do not put us back in the classical period in music where men ruled over us. We are in the 20th and 21th Century with this discussion. Here is a very mature man's point of view. I just had the conversation with him. He also has history to support his theory, a retired engineer and military man. He is my age, late 60's and here are his thoughts on this subject. He believes that the general male thinking in the area of composition is," If a woman can do this then what I do does not have as much value." Carry over from the Classical Period? He thinks the old world thinking of, "Men are superior to women," still exists in the area of broadway quality music workplace, etc. That women have not been taken seriously as of yet in composition and that men have kept them down in general as men are in charge and control as to who is accepted and who is not in the film score world. Are women composer's even allowed into the door? Have they been kept out of the door? Do we have discrimination here? I will go into the forums of women composers and investigate to see if I can find women who submit their broadway music compositions and the outcome etc. He thinks the day will come when women slowly can overcome this "Sea of Ignorance Thinking." I Was married 27 years, love and like men in general very much, so, do not even go to say I am a man hater. Not true. We need women composers equal right's opportunities. Maybe we women amateur composers need to have forums worldwide to overcome this small minded thinking? Input? I am a Washington DC Metro Area native and I speak up. All raise their hands who want to witness very famous women composers who get film score credit of broadway music in this 21 Century? Now my interest is up and I want to indeed find out how much of this really exists? I will find out the best I can. Maybe this is an unspoken area my friend Wally has exposed to us? We shall see. Off to check women's composer's forums and get information. Cheers, Sandy B

The Broadway Music Community is my untimate interest at this time, my starting point, in this research, to see if discrimination is indeed a factor as to why women have only minor credits in broadway music. This is only the start and maybe many other areas will be brought to justice too, if need be. Many questions to be asked, many forums to enter for info from women composer's, etc. I might develop a forum to get help from others. A big file for me to keep in tact for future reference, etc. Do we have lack of interest to submit compositions on the part of women composer's or bold discrimation? I suspect we have bold discrimination here. I truly do hope not, but, I will find out. We shall see. Forward march. Sandy B

But you've certainly heard of Chorus Line?

Well then let's talk about Joan Tower or Jennifer Higdon. Jennifer Higdon is a regular at the New Music Box so to learn more about her, go there and do a search, you'll find plenty. Joan Tower was the first composer chosen for a Ford Made in America Commission (a collaboration between the ASOL and Meet the Composer). For more information click this link.

http://www.fordmadeinamerica.org/composer.shtml

I hope these two examples are seen less as exception and more as an indication of a sea change. That there are two active women composers that can challenge John Adams and John Corigliano in terms of recognition as today's best known composers says times really have changed.

Oh wait you werte talking about Broadway composers. Sorry can't help you there.

It may exist on Broadway, it does not exist among classical composers. The mind set you've described is very "old school." It's ego centric and we all know about male egos. It's just that these days male egos get bruised so regularly starting so young that we learn to deal with it (and the bruising is often justified). The old school never did.
Oh you poor victim! [/sarcasm] If you want to get into film scoring the route has been clearly mapped. Get into the USC film school music program, befriend someone like a Steven Spielberg before they're famous and compose the score to their film school efforts so that their demo becomes your demo.
Sandy, it's all been done already. All you have to do is write great music and get out there and market it. The salient point is that it needs to be great music, interesting, engaging and superbly crafted.

Hello again. Scratch the above as now with very EXCELLENT INFORMATION... No more dog chasing the tail concept for me. Here goes the solution route... This article begins... December 1, 1987, called, "Women Discuss Striving for Status as Composers," New York Times. We have an excellent point here from Dr. Marilyn Thomas, an associate professor of theory and composition at Carnegie Mellon Unv. in Pittsburgh, she said,"I think discrimination against women composers still exists because the prestigious conductor positions are still held by men." She went on to say,"There is a lot of friendship in the business-kind of a good old boy network. She also said this, "Female composers would continue to be stymied until more women become conductors and we need to erase the concept that we need a powerful force in front of a symphony orchestra."
Same article as above continues, Dr.Peri an associate professor of music and voice at this time, 1987, West Va. Unv. said ," My mother is a composer and I have seen in no uncertain terms the discrimination of women in music and the hurdles they have to overcome." She continued to state this, "It is improtant that we make changes in the body of knowlege which too often excludes women." What fun I am having researching this social injustice to women. We have the solution and just the action is needed now to solve this problem. How? By making a united effort and one step at a time to educate and promote women conductors. How else? Now to contact women educators in music composition for more ideas. Sandy B

I've always found it interesting that you just don't hear of a lot of women composers, if you think about it, you might have a hard time naming one. The only one I can think of is Clara Schumann. I have always wondered if it was just that there weren't many women composers, or if it was more of sexism against them, people thinking a man's music is superior to a woman's, or both.

Also back in the classical and romantic periods, woman weren't as independent and they may have actually wanted to stay home and raise a family instead of chasing a dream of being a musical composer.


I think it is possible for a woman composer to become reknown these days. But I still have this feeling that there is sexism somewhat in music, people thinking a woman's music is inferior to a man's or just suitable for children.

After this great information above I will just forget the other route, broadway, too long and not as productive as this new route, based on the above information. I just want the discrimination problem solved ASAP. Now I have a direct route to be a part of the solution. Feeling good and so much easier than I thought. Three cheers for social justice. Sandy B

Slaves were freed so now we need to free women in the music world from their restrictions made by men? Note how some people still want to grind we women composers down with condesending remarks, check the internet for proof. This really gets my fire going. Light my fire please. So simple the solution just get a women conductor. Now to find out how many women are being educated to be conductors? Research info. Off and running. Forget the past and help improve the future for women composers. START WITH FAMOUS WOMEN CONDUCTORS...I LOVE IT... SO SIMPLE TOO. Sandy B

GREAT NEWS...After further investigation I no longer feel the need to help progress women conductors as the First Woman Conductor Debut is now as of this year, 2007, Marin Alsop, conductor of the Baltimore Symphony. The job has been filled and I educated myself today. Marin stated that she was inspired by Leonard Bernstein and decided at 9 years old to become a conductor. Now I can rest and allow Marin Alsop to set the tone and dismiss all silly discrimination against women conductors and composers. I rest my case and I want to thank Marin Alsop. Cheers and happy day. Sandy B

Now that Marin Alsop is full time conductor for a major symphony, Baltimore MD, our path is paved and within a few years we will be heard as equals and not have to write music, compositions, under our husbands or brothers names. A victory this year 2007 and thank you again, Marin Alsop. Women have been so mistreated in music. To belittle anyone is a crime against humanity. Good old America, we always get it right, but, it just takes time. Sandy B

You want women composerss...here's a whole list!

http://www.kapralova.org/DATABASE.htm

from the few Bernstein music i've heard, i'm not crazy about him at all. his music sounds too bambastic to me and i would certainly avoid in the future.

also, what's the point of women or not women composers? right now, only music matters. if you write some good music, whether you're a man or a woman, it's still good music and gender doesn't really matter, in modern age anyway.

When Kaija Saariaho started out, with awards and all, a prominent male critic wrote that nobody would listen to her music if she weren't a good-looking woman.

As implied by the above story, there can also be "positive discrimination". The USA has been a forerunner in this field:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discrimination

So, why have great composers been mostly men?

Let me quote from Charles Murray:

As groups, do men and women differ innately in characteristics that produce achievement at the highest levels of accomplishment? I will limit my comments to the arts and sciences.

Since we live in an age when students are likely to hear more about Marie Curie than about Albert Einstein, it is worth beginning with a statement of historical fact: Women have played a proportionally tiny part in the history of the arts and sciences. Even in the 20th century, women got only 2% of the Nobel Prizes in the sciences--a proportion constant for both halves of the century--and 10% of the prizes in literature. The Fields Medal, the most prestigious award in mathematics, has been given to 44 people since it originated in 1936. All have been men.

The historical reality of male dominance of the greatest achievements in science and the arts is not open to argument. The question is whether the social and legal exclusion of women is a sufficient explanation for this situation, or whether sex-specific characteristics are also at work.

Mathematics offers an entry point for thinking about the answer. Through high school, girls earn better grades in math than boys, but boys usually do better on standardized tests. The difference in means is modest, but the male advantage increases as the focus shifts from means to extremes. In a large sample of mathematically gifted youths, for example, seven times as many males as females scored in the top percentile of the SAT mathematics test. (...)

It has been known for years that even after adjusting for body size, men have larger brains than women. (...)

In test scores, the male advantage is most pronounced in the most abstract items. Historically, too, it is most pronounced in the most abstract domains of accomplishment.

In the humanities, the most abstract field is philosophy--and no woman has been a significant original thinker in any of the world's great philosophical traditions. In the sciences, the most abstract field is mathematics, where the number of great female mathematicians is approximately two (Emmy Noether definitely, Sonya Kovalevskaya maybe). In the other hard sciences, the contributions of great women have usually been empirical rather than theoretical, with leading cases in point being Henrietta Leavitt, Dorothy Hodgkin, Lise Meitner, Irène Joliot-Curie and Marie Curie herself.

In the arts, literature is the least abstract and by far the most rooted in human interaction; visual art incorporates a greater admixture of the abstract; musical composition is the most abstract of all the arts, using neither words nor images. The role of women has varied accordingly. Women have been represented among great writers virtually from the beginning of literature, in East Asia and South Asia as well as in the West. Women have produced a smaller number of important visual artists, and none clearly in the first rank. No female composer is even close to the first rank. Social restrictions undoubtedly damped down women's contributions in all of the arts, but the pattern of accomplishment that did break through is strikingly consistent with what we know about the respective strengths of male and female cognitive repertoires.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007391

Georgia O'Keefe and Frida Kahlo

And Judy Chicago, to cite a living example.

Also, those interested in the article excerpted above may also be interested to know that Murray has since decided that the SAT is obsolete and exerts a negative influence on American life.

http://american.com/archive/2007/july-august-magazine-contents/abolish-the-sat