Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What am I doing so wrong?

I don't see anything wrong in a teacher who will not accept adult students. If you are not comfortable with it then it's best to be honest from the outset. There is no discrimination or prejudice involved. The relationship between teacher and student is complex and personal. Choosing a teacher is not like going into a shop to buy goods. There needs to be a good fit and if a teacher feels that this is not possible then what's the problem?

I have been rejected as a teacher for several reasons in the past. I have had female students who wanted a female teacher which is fine. I am not offended by this. Some students have passed because of my age and experience (when I first started). Some have read my studio policy and felt that they would not fit in with my expectations. In this thread one poster stated that they would not select a teacher who contributes to this forum and that decent teachers don't have websites.

I don't have a problem with any of this. A student is quite entitled to choose their teacher so why not the other way round?

By the way, this post is not in response to keystring. I just don't know how to alter that re: bit. Also, where has the spell check gone?

Chris, if a student is not as assumed based on his age-category, and if a single teacher makes that choice for that reason, then it is that teacher's potential loss - he may be depriving himself of an excellent student and rewarding experience.

If, (please note that this is an "if", and deliberately exaggerated) however, most good teachers have a preconception about all adult students and therefore reject any adult student due to that conception, then it condemns that student to helplesness. Where does he go? What level can he reach if he cannot find good teaching? You (plural) are condemning a potentially good student and future musician to mediocrity if en masse he is rejected.

It is totally understandable for a teacher not to want to have the attributes in his studio that have been mentioned in this thread. It is another thing entirely to extrapolate those attributes to any and all students. We are each individuals. We only have this life to lead.

Do we find a Fountain of Youth in which to dip ourselves in order to make ourselves acceptable? And if I did look like a 17 year old, will I be more promising student? I will tell you with absolute certainty that I am a superior student, capable of learning more and much more effectively, including the physical act of playing an instrument, than I was at age 17.

I am sorry. I am not accountable for the actions and attitudes that a teacher's other students may have presented. I do not want to walk in the wake of their legacy. I know who I am and what I can do if I am given a chance. I cannot, and will not, accept a blanket portrait based on age.

Respectfully,

KS

I really appreciated the post by lotuscrystal, spelling out in careful and nonconfrontational detail the difficulties with adult students.

It does mean it's harder for an adult to find a compatible teacher, but we knew that. Actually it's also harder for some who wants to specialize in jazz, or pop, or rock, or bluegrass. Hee, hee.

So what do we do about it? Force teachers to take 5% adult students? None of us could tolerate that. Convince teachers that the stereotype isn't true? Not going to work, because it is true for most of us in at least some degree.

But it does outline some strategies for adult teacher-seekers. Knowing what it is that teachers fear, we can try to present ourselves as different, and we can try to actually avoid some of those problems, to the extent possible. We can't completely avoid some of them - we have work and family responsibilities and we are going to miss lessons. We can avoid some of the psychological dependence issues.

If there were enough of us, this problem would go away. The free market would respond, teachers would realize the profit they could make in this niche and specialists in adult piano would be as common as muffler repair and oil change shops. They wouldn't care we don't stick with it, they'd just open the door and let another one in. But there's never going to be more than a tiny number of us, and it's never going to produce that kind of incentive.

Something economic that doesn't help you, but does help the industry: musical instruments of all types (brass, woodwind, string, piano, digital) are better quality and lower real price than they've ever been in history. That market isn't driven by the pro's; it's the adult amateur who buys most of them.

You see I just don't think there is any truth in this. Some teachers choose not to teach adults. They have their reasons and are entitled to make this choice just as the student can choose to accept/reject a teacher. But there are lots of good, even great teachers who are more than happy to teach adults. So if as an adult you get a rejection you are not at all condemned, you just find another teacher who will take you on. Why assume that those teachers who do teach adults are not just as good as those that don't?

+1. I also appreciated very much candywoman's post and Chris's, which similarly detailed in a thoughtful, nuanced way the possible issues involved in finding a good teacher/student match for adult students.

It may be too much to hope, keystring, but just maybe we're finally venturing back into territory that might help Amateur Jerry, should he still be reading this.

Chris, you are a decent teacher, and treat students with care and fairly. You have your students and you receive transfer students. You went the path of a child learning into adulthood with the good and bad of whatever you encountered - but it was the conventional path. I have encountered other things, and I have had exchanges with a few fellow students - one over a long period of time - and have seen sides that you would probably not run across. Please trust me that there are some realities out there. I don't go off on tangents and I only have so much energy to spare. If there were not something of concern I would not bother.

In the very very least we must know how to present ourselves, and be prepared to address these concerns. I am talking about a student who wants to reach a fairly high level and not just play as a hobby. Professional aspirations do not have to be in the picture.

KS

Keystring, I might be missing something here which certainly wouldn't be the first time! It seems as if you are assuming that a teacher who is willing to accept adult students does so on the basis that they will play for a hobby and never really achieve anything. That would not be true in my case. I like to think that I treat all my students as individuals and work with them to achieve whatever is possible. For me it makes no difference how old they are.

My wife doesn't take adult students. Nor does she take transfer students. She will only take on children who have encountered the system she chooses to teach or who have had no previous experience at all. This has nothing to do with stereotypes or generalisations. She does this because private piano teaching forms a small part of her work and she prefers it to be as easy and enjoyable as possible. She is not interested in correcting bad habits, overcoming preconceptions, dealing with 'baggage' etc. She also fully understands that not ALL the students she would reject have these problems but the fact that they might is enough. You could say that she is not willing to take the risk. I know how hard she works and can't blame her for that.

On the other hand I will teach just about anybody who wants to learn as long as we get along. I have a lot more students than my wife and it has to be said that on average their standard of playing is lower than hers. That's not because she is a better teacher, just that she is more selective of her students in the first place. And it's not because I have low expectations either. Those who take lessons with me are expected to do their best and reach their potential, whatever that may be.

Lotuschrystal, I loved your letter. I have just started reading this whole discussion and would like to say I am ONLY commenting on your words. I too have, finally, an adult class that is richly rewarding. It has happened after years and years of dealing with the exact issues you mentioned. Understanding those adult issues of self criticism, lack of practice time, fear of failure, etc. has led me to develop ways to get around them and empower the student. One thing I always do now when I interview a prospective new adult student, is talk to them about these very issues so they are up front from the beginning. I let them know that learning to play an instrument will not be like other adult activities where they can take in information and immediately assimilate it. Quite to the contrary, the number of elements that a student is required to synthesize, both intellectual and physical, is unlike anything else they've ever done. And it requires more patience and methodical work than most adult enterprises require. I try to let them understand that it is a process of mastering skill sets, one at a time, with plateaus in their progress, and that it is impossible to learn to play if they are afraid of making mistakes.

The other thing that I have finally realized after many years, is that a beginning student has no idea of the complexity of the entire endeavor, and that I have to have realistic expectations for the beginning years. Little by little, those who remain begin to acquire skills, then confidence. It's just great when that happens.

By the way, I loved Australia!

Chris, I know your attitude and I have some idea about the standards of your work and to which you hold your students. This is not the reality everywhere.

What teachers expect of adult students because of what they have experienced has been apparent previously and is clearly set out in this thread. I do not want to be excluded from consideration because of such expectations. I want to be judged by my own merit. I still say that the positive part of this thread is to realize that this is so, why it is so, and be able to act upon it.

KS

We are not all the same. Perhaps I can illustrate to bring a point across. I do not know how many are like me, what percentage, if these are exceptions, but here goes:

On a personal level if I were to express my thoughts which I would never do since they sound like instructions, they might go like this:
I am not insecure. Please teach me how to play. Do not discuss fears that I do not have. Do not walk on eggshells around me. Do not try to bolster my ego. I am happy if you like my playing, but I'd like to know what is good about it and what I can improve, and how. Address my emotions less, (if at all), and my playing more. Feel free to criticize, and do so in a way that I can work with and toward what you are criticizing. In fact, please criticize more - those are my milestones in practicing. Teach me how to play. If your young students need to learn things in a certain order, chances are that I do too. I do not want to "ride on my talent" - it won't get me far. I enjoy performing and do not fear it. But I want to perform well, knowing what I am doing. Teach me. Never mind emotions - if I have performance anxiety, I'll let you know. Teach me how to play.

As far as I can bring it out, this is my personal reality. I am an individual student. If some of my realities are not the same as the ones described, then the approaches for them would not work. If there is a common pattern for most people belonging to a given group, it does not follow that everyone will fit that pattern. That is my main concern. We are individuals.

I do not want to find myself with an "adult student specialist" if that specialist is dealing with a common pattern that I may not share. I would rather be with a "piano playing specialist" i.e. piano teacher and assume that I am expected to adjust to what is expected of any piano student. I feel more comfortable at the second prospect.

The main thing is that we are individuals, and cannot all fit the same profile. If there is a common pattern, we have to be aware that it will be expected.

KS

Um. Wow. Just...Wow. If you are talking about what I said below:

"Glad you (and I) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway."

I would hire a teacher on this board, were I looking for one and it was a good fit. I have a high degree of respect for many teachers on this board.

But I am not looking for one (on this board or off). I have one. I am glad, however, that I did not come looking to this board for a teacher, because if I had, the things I have read here about adult students would have made me completely discouraged, if not heartbroken. I would have wanted to slink off quietly, embarrased to have even had the temerity to suggest I start taking lessons again. The dreams of adults are fragile things, when it comes to things like music lessons.

No one wants to be the student the teacher talks about in disgust. No one wants to take lessons, all the while thinking, "am I really awful? Does my teacher hate teaching me?" Geez no wonder some teachers here talk about how self-critical adult students are...if the voice we are hearing in our heads about how what a waste of time and effort we are is the voice of a piano teacher!

If we read the threads here that are specifically about adult students, we hear about all the problems associated with adult students. If we never read any other threads on the board, we would get the idea that kids are all model students, always practice, advance rapidly, etc. That is, of course, not at all what is said in other (non-adult student related) threads.

I am not a model student. My teacher is very likely a bit frustrated that I can't practice more, and that I learn pieces more slowly than a kid playing at my level. Nobody, however, is more frustrated about these things than ME. It is something she and I address (and battle) _together_. I wish it were different but I've gotten rather used to living indoors and eating regularly. However, I get the impression that my teacher wishes *all* her students practiced more hours a day and more days a week. I hope she doesn't attribute my particular difficulties to my 'being an adult student' and therefore a lost cause to begin with.

And...'decent teachers don't have websites?' How did you get that from this:


I hardly know every teacher in the world. Or every teacher in my area. Of the ones (teachers and students) I know, most find their students because they are associated with the university, and either teach in the piano prep program, or offer lessons and classes through metro community colleges, or through word of mouth. In fact, those teachers may also have websites, for all I know. But I never hear them say, "Yeah I got such-and-such student from my website"...I do hear students and teachers talking about finding each other in these other ways.

I personally have not found web searches very useful in looking for music teachers. Every once in a while I daydream about moving back to my home area...or taking violin lessons again...and when I try to find the type of teacher I'm looking for, just by looking on the web, I find it really frustrating. I guess I'm old school. Aside from basic qualifications (degrees, memberships, location, rates), websites can't tell you much except how good they are at building (or hiring) a website.

Plus...as an aside...I'm sure that there are high quality 'find a music teacher' kinds of websites...but a lot of the ones that are easiest to find are pretty cheesy and definitely are not where you would find really excellent teachers.

And Betty, as far as I know I really believe I have already quoted the statements of yours that I had the most question about.

Well, I won't claim to be 'not insecure'...but this is pretty much how I feel as well.

A couple of months ago I was the "guinea pig adult student" visitor in a university piano pedagogy class. That day, they were talking specifically about adult students. When the teacher asked me to explain to the class how I wanted to be taught, I said something like, "I know I have big gaps in my teaching and my technique. I want them gone. I've never had explicit instruction on correct technique. I've just floundered around by trial and error. That is frustrating. Tell me what I'm doing right (so I'm sure it's right, not to stroke my ego). Tell me what I'm doing wrong. And tell me how to fix it. And work with me to make sure I understand and am applying it correctly. Put the rubber to the road and let's get it done." The instructor laughed out loud when most of the class's jaws dropped open. I still don't understand what is so unusual about this attitude.

I remember telling a mom once who said she wanted her daughter to have 'fun' at lessons...playing poorly is not fun. Playing well is fun. It seems to me that a lot of the 'problems' of adult students would be eliminated or reduced if things were tackled head-on. Direct, frank instruction based on reducing or eliminating roadblocks to piano enjoyment.

Don't discourage me by telling me "adult students are nothing but problems and I (and every other teacher) hate to teach them"...but don't coddle me or lie to me either, to try to make me feel better...once you are my teacher.

I must say, at the risk of offending everyone, that this thread strikes me as a Kerfuffle about nothing.
If I were to systematically analyze all that was proffered, the only conclusion would have to be: Adults are different from one other. Teachers and students discussed here are adults. Therefore they must select each other carefully.
What else is there to say?

Sorry about that Prodigal. I admit it was a bit below the belt. When I first read your comment about looking for a teacher on this forum I did interpret that to mean that you would not be happy with any of the teachers who contribute here. It sounded like a generalisation to me. I do know you didn't mean it like that but I suppose I wanted to stress that it is easy to take what people say here the wrong way. As for websites, I have one, but you wouldn't find it on a web search. I use it to provide information for my current students rather than to advertise my services. To be honest you will find out far more about me (or any other teacher) by lurking in this forum.

I do feel like these threads end up being a bit 'them and us'. Betty was getting a pasting and I did find it upsetting. Surely it's clear that Betty is an experienced and dedicated teacher and wants the best for her students. Nobody gives more help and advice over on the ABF than she does. Read all the threads about dropping students and you will find that Betty is the one who will try every possible avenue to save the relationship. I didn't speak up in her defence here and feel slightly ashamed. I am very aware that this is a public forum and everything you say can be used against you and can easily get twisted. I'm just not one for arguments. But Betty speaks her mind and it often seems to land her in trouble.

No offence intended.

Chris: Thank you so much for your understanding of who I am and what I deliver in my piano studio. I appreciate your support more than you will ever know!

That adult students on the forum see me as they do is more of a reflection on their understanding of what music study is not, than on what I know music study to be.

Chris said: "I do feel like these threads end up being a bit 'them and us'. Betty was getting a pasting and I did find it upsetting. Surely it's clear that Betty is an experienced and dedicated teacher and wants the best for her students. Nobody gives more help and advice over on the ABF than she does. Read all the threads about dropping students and you will find that Betty is the one who will try every possible avenue to save the relationship. I didn't speak up in her defence here and feel slightly ashamed. I am very aware that this is a public forum and everything you say can be used against you and can easily get twisted. I'm just not one for arguments. But Betty speaks her mind and it often seems to land her in trouble.

No offence intended."

It does get me down to be misunderstood when I am trying hard to communicate and contribute something that is important to me. I assist people to reach their goals musically, and that means I join them where they are, and I don't disparage anyone who studies with me, I encourage and motivate them when needed. I carry them on my back sometimes. I don't dismiss them because they don't live up to my expectations.

Chris, it's getting harder and harder to be understood as a piano teacher in today's society!

I think highly of you and Julie, too!

Betty

Chris: Thank you so much for your understanding of who I am and what I deliver in my piano studio. I appreciate your support more than you will ever know!

That adult students on the forum see me as they do is more of a reflection on their understanding of what music study is not, than on what I know music study to be.

Chris said: "I do feel like these threads end up being a bit 'them and us'. Betty was getting a pasting and I did find it upsetting. Surely it's clear that Betty is an experienced and dedicated teacher and wants the best for her students. Nobody gives more help and advice over on the ABF than she does. Read all the threads about dropping students and you will find that Betty is the one who will try every possible avenue to save the relationship. I didn't speak up in her defence here and feel slightly ashamed. I am very aware that this is a public forum and everything you say can be used against you and can easily get twisted. I'm just not one for arguments. But Betty speaks her mind and it often seems to land her in trouble.

No offence intended."

It does get me down to be misunderstood when I am trying hard to communicate and contribute something that is important to me. I assist people to reach their goals musically, and that means I join them where they are, and I don't disparage anyone who studies with me, I encourage and motivate them when needed. I carry them on my back sometimes. I don't dismiss them because they don't live up to my expectations.

Chris, it's getting harder and harder to be understood as a piano teacher in today's society!

I think highly of you and Julie, too!

Betty

Betty,

I can't speak for anyone else, only myself but I see you as a teacher who has dedicated much of your adult life to teaching piano. It comes across in many of your posts that you care deeply about music education and strive each and every day to be the best teacher you can possibly be.

The fact that I disagree with some of the posts you've made doesn't change the how I see you or many of the other teachers who come here to post.

As an aspiring teacher I have much to learn from yourself and the many other teachers who come here to share their knowledge and experience.

I hope you continue to share what you've learned over the years about teaching and even in times of disagreement, that you can also learn from what I and other students contribute to the forum.

Nicely said, Gerry Armstrong!

We all learn from each other and that is one of the biggest attractions of PWF for me. I learn so much here and I have an opportunity to meet other piano teachers and read their contributions too.

Posting can be a very happy and rejuvenating factor between teachers, and the criteria is not that they agree with each other. It works best for me when it is positively stated or that any criticism would be constructive and valid. Often we achieve that.

If I were to say anything about a fellow teacher, I would hope I would say it in a way that people would know I was speaking highly of that teacher. It is understood there will be sometimes disagreements which can challenge our abilities to communicate without offending.

I listen to advice and ideas, and then I reach my own conclusions, that is the way it is for all of us I think.

I don't pretend to have the final answer to anything. I, do, however stay in the debates longer than does me good. We just have to much stake in our self-respect to let our intentions and philosophies be picked apart.

Say you don't agree and say why - that's very acceptable. I'll do the same. It's called "opinion".

I did post a topic this evening about Pedagogy being established in early Greek and Roman times. I hope teachers get a chance to read it as pedagogy in music has been a thread in history from the very earliest of times. (Aulos, lyre, and drum.)

Betty

Thanks Keyboardmuse! And you have some really great ideas in approaching new adult students and students in general! I definately relate to what you've shared and thanks heaps for your reply

Oh wow, this thread really really scares me. Mostly because conceptually I'm very much like the opening poster - I'm an adult, I've had about 4 years of experience, I definitely have goals in terms of pieces of music I'd like to learn to play, and I definitely have gaps in technique that I'd like a work with a teacher to fill. That being said, I don't mind being busted back to white belt (to use an analogy) but WOW after reading this I'm starting to consider maybe I should just continue with self-study.

I'm almost left speechless at just how...I don't even know how to say it, annoyed (maybe?) teachers seem to be with adult students.

(Also, I didn't notice this before, but is this some kind of weird mix of a flat forum and a threaded forum? Obviously this post is addressing pretty much everyone, but it seems to be pegged as a "reply" to lotuscrystal)