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Topic Options
#1161215 - 03/11/09 11:30 AM Brodmann not bust
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Hi,

Wondering if someone can shed some light...

I'm looking to buy a new grand piano. I have tried a few and narrowed it down to Kawai RX2, Boston 178 or Brodmann 187. I deceided that I liked the brodmann, but one of the other dealers told me they went out of business a couple of weeks ago. I thought this was a tactic to discredit brodmann, but the best the brodmann dealer could say was "we haven't heard anything like that" which was not as definate as i'd hoped for. I then tried contacting the UK office, but their phones have just rang out. There is mobile number on the website but it is not a recognised number.

So, has anyone heard if this is true? And if so would it still be worth buying if I got a good discount?

Any other thoughts on any of these pianos also welcome.

Thanks,

CoJ.


Edited by Ken Knapp (03/18/09 05:39 PM)
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1161223 - 03/11/09 11:39 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1808
There was a recent thread on this. You could look for it and then potentially get in touch with some of the dealers who spoke about it directly.

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#1161386 - 03/11/09 04:56 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
Tenor70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 62
Loc: United Kingdom
Hello
Check out Besbrode Pianos, leeds they have a 187 in for 8k (pounds). Brodmann at the moment do not have a uk distrubuter.

Cheers

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#1161414 - 03/11/09 05:34 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Tenor70]
djtoast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Glasgow
Hello to a fellow Glasgow resident!

One comment I have is that just before I bought mine, I was at a large piano shop a few miles from the city centre, where I'd looked at a couple of pianos... The shop had Brodmanns listed on their website, but when I mentioned the brand, the salesman said patronisingly "Heh, no sir, that's a CHINESE piano" - and when I said that they seemed to appear on the shop's website, he replied that that was for "a reason" and fixed me with an inscrutable stare. Made me a bit reluctant to buy ANY piano from him.

So I might take the comments any dealer makes about brands they don't carry with a pinch of salt; maybe it's because they think (with good reason or not) that the brand stinks, and maybe they'll say anything while you're in their shop to interest you in what's on their floor. Sigh.

Re uk distribution, I believe that there's a shop in Edinburgh importing them directly from the manufacturer for themselves and a Glasgow based dealer.
_________________________
Brodmann BU 125 upright
1880 Blüthner 7'2" grand

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#1161433 - 03/11/09 06:02 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: djtoast]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Hi Folks,

Thanks for the replys.

The large piano shop wouldn't be peter smith in paisley? Thats the one that said brodmann were bust. I wouldn't have given it a second thought if it hadn't been for the dealers vague response and the fact I can't contact anyone from Brodmann.

I know about the showroom in glasgow, thats where I played the 187. The usual guy wasn't there when I went so hopefully he will be there next time to answer my questions...

I've also seen the one in leeds for £8k which seems like a good price. I'm just not sure I want to spend that if the company is out of business. Trouble is Kawai is £16,500 and Boston is £15,500. (on a seperate note - I always thought Bostons were more expensive than Kawai?)

Anyone else heard if this is true or not?

Thanks,

CoJ.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1161440 - 03/11/09 06:18 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
CoJack,

I read somewhere that the UK distribution center for Brodmann was shut down but that the Edinburgh Piano Company is still importing pianos from Vienna directly.

Might just be a rumour but it confirms you unanswered phonecalls?

schwammerl.

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#1161481 - 03/11/09 07:29 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: schwammerl]
d_p Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Boston north
That would be a good time for the dealers to jump into the conversation and dispel the rumors...
_________________________
Estonia L190 #6989

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#1161484 - 03/11/09 07:35 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: d_p]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14428
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
We just got 4 new Brodmann grands delivered, they're selling extremely well - discount or no discount.

Now let's see if I don't have to pay for them.

Some inner voice tells me I won't be so lucky....

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1161509 - 03/11/09 08:37 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Norbert]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4683
Loc: San Francisco
Here's the contact info for the U.K. distributor:

Corporate Office UK:
Colin Taylor
14 Addison Road, Chilton
Sudbury Suffolk
CO10 2YW, United Kingdom

T +44 (0) 1787 31 37 66
F +44 (0) 1787 31 38 01
Mob +44 (0) 777 444 38 94

colin.taylor@brodmann-pianos.com

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#1161517 - 03/11/09 08:57 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: FogVilleLad]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Thats the numbers I've been trying. The top one goes to an answering machine (Like a pre-recorded one you get at home - no mention of brodmann) and the other 2 don't go through at all. I have had no response from the email either. I have now emailed the main vienna address, so hopefully that should confirm if its just the UK office thats closed.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Will keep you posted if I find out any more...

CoJac.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1161623 - 03/12/09 12:46 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
djtoast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Glasgow
yeah, my understanding is that colin taylor isn't importing them any more.

for what it's worth i do absolutely love the BG187, and the £8k price tag for the one in leeds is an absolute steal, i really think it would be EXTREMELY hard to find a better new piano at that price. it'd be fun to visit that shop, also: they have an awesome stock list - just LOOK at this

http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-sale/steinway-model-D-grand-piano-1.htm

for example! *swoon*

i haven't played an RX2 but my teacher's piano is a Boston 178 and if money weren't a factor i'd pick it over the Brodmann 187; it seems even at my modest level of ability to be more easily capable of nuance and has perhaps a slightly more rounded sound. it is possible that i say that partly because i've heard my teacher make wonderful noises on it and have only heard ME playing the Brodmann though!

quite a difference in price though, and while for me the Boston pips it, the Brodmann is a lovely, lovely instrument too. as i recall the price in mclarens here in glasgow is higher than the price besbrode's website, but the cost of a trip to leeds to try that one + getting the piano up here might narrow the gap.

eek, good luck with your decision!
_________________________
Brodmann BU 125 upright
1880 Blüthner 7'2" grand

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#1161717 - 03/12/09 08:38 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: djtoast]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Hi Folks,

Mystery solved now!

I got an email back from the the vienna office (from Christian Hoeferl himself) to say someone from the UK division would contact me soon. I then got an email from Colin Taylor to say that the UK office has indeed closed and that they now ship pianos from Holland. All waranties are still valid ect. They also said they are looking to open some sort of UK office and update the website asap.

@djtoast -
The place in leed will deliver free to anywhere in the UK. It does mean I wont have played the exact one I'd get.

Also about the Boston. The one I tried had a beautiful touch and tone. More mellow than the Kawai or Brodmann, but it had an area of about an octave below middle C that sounded a bit dull compared to the rest. I'm sure if I got a different one it wouldn't be like that, but I don't have another one to try!

The brodmann however had a very even touch and tone across the whole keyboard. The sound was a bit brighter than the boston or possibly even the Kawai, but still more mellow than the Yamahas I tried. The action was a bit lighter than the boston but very responsive and made pieces seeem easy!

To be honest I think I would be happy with any of the ones I tried, but the Brodmann is less money and I couldn't fault it in any way.

CoJac.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1161746 - 03/12/09 09:51 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Did Colin (listed as one of the key men behind Brodmann) explain why the UK office had closed? Is it logical to close a UK office and then look to open another one?

The "Brodmann is in trouble" "has gone bust" rumor has been around for several weeks now. I have heard it said in Germany too (though the "head office" is in Austria). It is odd that the company has not updated its website for ages and is not dealing with PR very well. Boesendorfer suffered similarly in the past.
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#1161781 - 03/12/09 10:45 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: AJB]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 798
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Cojac,

You can voice the Brodmann down quite a bit, I usually have 3 187s available, each voiced differently (mellow, medium, and bright) to suit customer tastes, especially those seeking a more mellow sound.

I think if you try the Brodmann and voice it down you will find you have a much more beautiful sound than that of a Japanese piano.


Edited by Nick Mauel (03/12/09 01:01 PM)
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1161805 - 03/12/09 11:17 AM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: AJB]
djtoast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Glasgow
Originally Posted By: AJB
It is odd that the company has not updated its website for ages


They've always been quite bad that way I think - eg the introduction of the Vienna Editions were still listed as "coming soon" or whatever long after they were actually on shop floors, from what I recall.
_________________________
Brodmann BU 125 upright
1880 Blüthner 7'2" grand

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#1161887 - 03/12/09 01:52 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Diaphragmatic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 422
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel

I think if you try the Brodmann and voice it down you will find you have a much more beautiful sound than that of a Japanese piano.


Of course you would.. China is, after all, a much better place to manufacture products, far superior than Japan or even the US and Germany..

/roll eyes
_________________________
Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.

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#1161908 - 03/12/09 02:51 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Diaphragmatic]
d_p Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Boston north
Everybody take cover...
_________________________
Estonia L190 #6989

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#1162018 - 03/12/09 06:43 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: d_p]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 798
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
China is indeed an interesting contributor to the piano world, due to the very simple fact of the collaboration between West and East that is occuring on a few select brands such as Brodmann.

If not for its design, inclusion of high quality components from Germany, and the oversight of the folks from Vienna, it would not be as compelling, but it is!

A higher standard IS being met with this formula, even if the final assembly is done in China. I say this after having sold Japanese and Korean pianos for over 15 years.

If Steinway can do it with the Boston, why can't the former Bosendorfer execs do it, and to even higher standards still? The vast majority of the Steinway 'family' of pianos sold are from China and Japan.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1162021 - 03/12/09 07:04 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14428
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Brodmann can stand on its own - we never sell it "against" other brands including any of the Japanese.

Fact of the matter is that customers truly want the very best quality for their money in today's market and this is exactly the reason some will be able to do better than others.

If a certain piano costs x dollars and another somewhat comparable one x number of dollars *more* - this without detecting major noticeable differences between the products - the onus is not on the more efficient builder but the more expensive one to justify his price.

If China and those Western companies operating there in the meantime by the hundreds,even thousands,are manufacturing their stuff with some fairly amazing quality - it makes no sense to fight it.

Everybody else in the world will have to raise the bar to stay competitive, regardless of what his own "cost of production" figures happen to be.

Or end up building products at least 4-5 times the quality to justify their 4-5 times higher price.

Which few, if any are truly doing....

The real smart ones will sell China back the technology and raw materials it will always need for its countless products: not a bad start to hopefully get the world economy going again....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (03/12/09 11:36 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1162023 - 03/12/09 07:12 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Diaphragmatic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 422
I don't have a problem with Chinese pianos.. I have a problem when one makes a generalizing comment declaring the Brodmann has a "more beautiful sound" than all Japanese pianos.

This is fictitious sales speak..

_________________________
Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.

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#1162028 - 03/12/09 07:28 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Diaphragmatic]
erad1948 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 70
Loc: Brooklyn, New York
Hey CoJac,

I have never played a Broadman but I hear they are wonderful pianos. Actually I always thought they were British but from some of these threads, I see they are imported from Holland???

Anyway, just to address something you said about free shipping in the UK which would mean that you would not be able to play the one you would get. That has always seemed to me to be a mistake.... the cost of shipping should outweigh the possibility that you would get an instrument that you had issues with. No piano is the same from instrument to instrument.... you should only buy a piano that you have played... a few times and for a few hours... and it should be freshly tuned before you play it. I played my August Forster 215 on at least 6 visits to the dealership. I knew I loved it from the first time I played it but I had to be sure. It was the only 7'2" Forster in the showroom. For example, all had full Renner actions yet some were lighter then others. Sound is a whole different ball game.... you really have to listen closely. I had played 6 or 7 of the 190's in the same room I certainly liked some over others. (I was actually trading in my 190 for the 215) On my last visit, he actually had another 215 that just came in, he tuned them both for me and I ended up picking the original one after all. (also was cheaper because the Euro had gone up since he purchased the first one and he was willing to pass on that savings to me... he would have had to charge me $6,000 more for the newer one.) You're spending a lot of money and the dealer is making a nice profit.... make sure he tunes the piano for you and make sure you spend time with it on at least 2 or 3 visits. Good luck.

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#1162042 - 03/12/09 07:52 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Diaphragmatic]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 798
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Tone quality comes primarily from soundboard, hammers, and the ability of the piano to sustain the tone once it has been produced.

If you use a higher quality soundboard (Strunz from Germany), Abel hammers from Germany, and a substantially thicker rim, you have a tendency to achieve the quality of tone which is the hallmark of the world's finest pianos, and at the very least these are considered to be the necessary ingredients. But these are also specifications that exceed most all Japanese pianos. For a discussion of this, see The Piano Book 2008-2009 Supplement, pages 7 through 9.

Yet, I too am a fan of that 'mellower' sound. The opening poster was ranking his preferences for the pianos he played seemingly based on the brightest piano being the least favorite. I get similar observations as well.

So, I suggest voicing down the Brodmann and evaluating from there. I have excellent results with this although most dealers do not invest in this level of preparation (I get it done for free).

Jonathan, I wrote that if you do this I THINK you will get a more beautiful sound; I was not making a sworn declaration. Of course it is up to our own ears!

The poster additionaly stated:

"The Brodmann however had a very even touch and tone across the whole keyboard... very responsive and made pieces seeem easy!"

An added plus!


Edited by Nick Mauel (03/12/09 07:55 PM)
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1162065 - 03/12/09 09:06 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: Nick Mauel]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Hi Folks,

Sorry for starting off the whole brodmann debate again!

Here is the email I received from Colin Taylor explaining the UK office situation:

Thank you for your interest in Brodmann Pianos and I am very sorry you have had a problem trying to find us here in the UK. Our office in Viennahas contacted me and informed me of the situation.
Firstly I feel I owe you a short explanation of the situation. When Brodmann first started, we had a small showroom, warehouse and distribution point in Europe based in the UK in Suffolk. All pianos for Europe came through this warehouse and were sent on from the UK. As Brodmann grew much stronger in Europe we decided to open another warehouse in Holland which served all our mainland Europe dealers, together with our main offices and headquarters in Vienna.

Unfortunately due to the general economic downturn in business the warehouse in the UK has had to close and we now distribute our pianos from Holland and Vienna, but there is a small showroom locally which does have a few Brodmann pianos on display for sale. For some reason our website continues to show the UK details on the site and this is being amended immediately.

Following the closure of the UK warehouse, I am currently in the process of setting up a new office to look after the interests of the UK market and I hope to have completed this by the end of next month.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1162072 - 03/12/09 09:17 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
So back to the pianos...

I went round the dealers to try them all again today.

Again, I found the Kawai and Boston pretty difficult to separate. I think I prefered the tone of the Boston but prefered the action of the Kawai. The boston had a better bass, but still had an octave or so below middle C that sounded a bit duller than the rest. I played a tune with a L/H melody around there and found it hard to bring it out. No problem with the same tune on the Kawai. Overall I think the Kawai just takes it.

I then went to the Brodmann dealer who was closed! It is meant to be open till 6 and I was there before 5.30! So wasn't very happy. The last time I played the brodmann though I couldn't really find any faults.

So...
I think I'm going to take the trip to Leeds tomorrow to try the one there (which was cheaper anyway). They also do Kawai and Boston so I should be able to try them all together. I'm interesed to see if other Bostons have the same difference in the tone.

So hopefully my next post will be to say I've placed a deposit on one...

Thanks again for all the input,

CoJac.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

Top
#1162084 - 03/12/09 09:50 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
Diaphragmatic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 422
Good luck Cojac!

I know its an exciting time being so close to making a decision on the piano of your dreams..

Play all the pianos with any open mind get a good feel for the dealerships and trust your own opinions about each piano. All of the pianos you are considering are good choices.

..one more thing, this is certainly a case where 'bigger is better', I promise you wont regret getting the biggest piano possible (even if its a little more than what you wanted to spend)
_________________________
Musically Yours,
Jonathan Hunt

Sales Professional:
Steinway, Boston, Essex, Kohler & Campbell

The Music Gallery
Clearwater, Fl.

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#1162090 - 03/12/09 09:58 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
djtoast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 136
Loc: Glasgow
Dammit, if I hadn't promised to help a friend tomorrow afternoon I'd be hiding in the boot of your car for the trip down to get a look at that mahogany Model D at Besprode's!

Try not to be distracted by this:

http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/pianos-for-sale/bechstein/bechstein-grand-piano-5.htm

or this:

http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-sale/steinway-model-A-grand-piano-6.htm

or this:

http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-sale/grotrian-steinweg-185-grand-piano-1.htm

heehee
_________________________
Brodmann BU 125 upright
1880 Blüthner 7'2" grand

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#1162094 - 03/12/09 10:12 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: djtoast]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Think I might need to make a day of it.
Could be in there for hours...
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1162096 - 03/12/09 10:15 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Wow,

Had seen them before, but never looked at the price. Thought they would much higher. This might be a tougher choice than I thought...
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1162495 - 03/13/09 09:18 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
CoJac Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Well, made the trip to leeds today. Took longer than I thought and I got delayed at the bank before I went - so I only got there about 40 mins before closing.

Didn't get a chance to try another Boston, but after playing the Brodmann was sure its the right choice. Best tone and action in my opinion. Also saving £5k is an added bonus...

So deposit it payed and I should get it within 2 weeks!

Thanks again for everyones input.

CoJac.
_________________________
Brodmann 187
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnK9zMTNXU

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#1162504 - 03/13/09 10:02 PM Re: Brodmann bust? [Re: CoJac]
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4683
Loc: San Francisco
Glad you found a piano that's right for you and is within budget.

A couple of sticky keys, a squeaky pedal, and notes that sound markedly different from their neighbors are all a normal part of a piano's being played in. Now would be a good time to start looking for an experienced tech. You might want to have that person go thru the piano and see what might need to be done by way of preparation.

From your description of the evenness of this piano's tone, I'm guessing that it was at least tuned properly. But in the states, dealers sometimes skimp on prep. No harm in having your tech examine things like hammer alignment, action regulation, and the leveling and seating of strings.

All the best with your new piano.

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