Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Spectral Analysis of Musical Sounds
Spectral Analysis of Musical Sounds with Emphasis on the Piano
Learn More

Buy This Book on Amazon.com
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Pianoteq
Who's Online
90 registered (Amir, 36251, Anita Potter, ando, Allard, anamnesis, 24 invisible), 1326 Guests and 10 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1162941 - 03/14/09 11:38 PM Poor repetition
Don L Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Minnesota
My customer has a 45+ year old Packard studio. A problem has developed where several of the keys won't repeat....it happens more so when the sustain pedal is depressed.

I have checked for lost motion, lubricated jack pins and the buckskins appear in good shape. Is it possible the keys need some additional weight in the form of a small key lead? What about stretching the spring? Any other things come to mind?



(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1162956 - 03/15/09 12:05 AM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Don L]
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
The wippen flange is sluggish.
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

#1163058 - 03/15/09 09:08 AM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Keith Roberts]
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 1645
It could be a tight hammer flange as well. Possibly a tight key bushing, but that isn't too likely on a 45 year old piano.
Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA

#1163080 - 03/15/09 10:32 AM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Dave Stahl]
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Sytematically follow the resistance, starting with keybushings. Then hammer flanges, jack movement and wip flanges. Be systematic. After resistance is eliminated as a cause, check for proper blow, dip, check and letoff. Placing a lead at the back of the key is treating a symptom and NOT the cause. The action is designed to work and if it does not it is either too much resistance in the moving parts or poor regulation.

Edited by Sam Casey (03/15/09 10:47 AM)

#1163127 - 03/15/09 12:03 PM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Sam Casey]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22047
Loc: Oakland
The most common cause is the easiest to fix: the butt springs are out of place. As I said elsewhere, start with the simplest possibilities first.
Semipro Tech

#1163147 - 03/15/09 12:55 PM Re: Poor repetition [Re: BDB]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2573
Loc: Olympia, WA
Weak jack springs can definitely cause this problem, and can be tricky to diagnose if you haven't come across it before. They may still be strong enough for the jack to return, but the action design may require that they be strong enough to assist the upward motion of the key. I have sometimes stretched the spring with some success, other times it's not enough.

One of the real clues will be that if you step on the quiet pedal and then depress some keys, the keys won't return all the way to their rest position.

If you've checked all the obvious stuff and your still having trouble, try replacing one jack spring and see how it works.
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA

#1163338 - 03/15/09 08:37 PM Re: Poor repetition [Re: rysowers]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
You might also check the flange bushings for things like, elongation of the bushing holes, crooked birds eyes, or wear, along with checking the flange pins themselves for corrosion or something as simple as a burr inside of the bushing on the pin. Many possible causes including poor regulation, tight key bushings (on any age piano depending on the weather conditions and time of year) or a damper spoon digging into the damper lever...
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan

We love to play BF2.

#1163418 - 03/16/09 01:50 AM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Actually you should start at the front of the key when looking for a problem. Even if key bushings are worn, they can be dirty and sluggish. Lube them. Polish the capstan, teflon the wippin pad Then move to the wippen flange. Take the bridle strap and the key out of the picture. Step on the pedal when testing the wippen
If you have gotten this far and haven't found the problem, it's the wippen flange or the jack flange. A sluggish hammer flange will repeat if the bridle strap slack is adjusted tight.
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

#1163478 - 03/16/09 07:57 AM Re: Poor repetition [Re: Keith Roberts]
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 5115
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Many good suggestions, especially BDB’s of checking the easiest things first. Then with baffling problems a step by step approach is best.

Something that was not mentioned, and happens on older pianos, is insufficient lost motion. If there is a divot in the butt leather where the jack strikes, the jack may not be able to reset unless there is some lost motion.
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

#1166980 - 03/22/09 08:50 PM Re: Poor repetition [Re: UnrightTooner]
Don L Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 59
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks for all of the input.

Taking a systematic approach was very beneficial. I removed the problem key(s) and tried to simulate the problem by manually lifting the wippen. Everything worked perfectly. That meant the problem was most likely in the key...or improper capstan adjustment. I discovered the key bushing to be slightly tight. I cleaned the balance pins / guide pins, lubricated pins and eased the bushing. Problem solved. Thanks again.



Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
2015 NAMM Show - Will You Be There?
Kathy and I would like to meet you
Posting Pictures on the Forums
Forums Rules & Help
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
[As off topic as possible] Greek Elections
by Nikolas
Yesterday at 11:11 PM
Refinish an Ancient Ornate Steinway or Not?
by hoodun
Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Kimball Grand - made in Chicago
by hoodun
Yesterday at 09:48 PM
What are the pros for strip muting?
by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Yesterday at 07:27 PM
Schirmer Piano Company
by Steve617
Yesterday at 06:26 PM
Forum Stats
77836 Members
42 Forums
160923 Topics
2364116 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |

copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission