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#1162436 - 03/13/09 05:54 PM Double repetition action for upright pianos
Erus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Mexico
Following accordeur's suggestion, here's another thread about Pasquale Bafunno's action.



Do you think that action could be troublesome?

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#1162438 - 03/13/09 06:04 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Erus]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
Yes, I think it would be troublesome. Let-off and drop hard to regulate. That butt is GIANT, kinda heavy I would think. Also having the whippen doing the catching as opposed to the keystick, not sure, undue stress on the whippen flange. Lots of centerpins to redo with wear, too many. The whole thing is too complicated, but that's just my opinion. I still think that the Fandrich is a better design, but hats off to Mr. Bafunno anyways.
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1162440 - 03/13/09 06:05 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: accordeur]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
It would be nice to have a picture of the Fandrich to compare, I'll try and find one.
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Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1162444 - 03/13/09 06:11 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: accordeur]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
Found it, it just down the page a bit. It IS amuch simpler and elegant design and Mr. Fandrich claims it's even better than a grand. I would love to try it someday

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1162460 - 03/13/09 06:45 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Erus]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Erus

Do you think that action could be troublesome?


Yes, it would be.

While I was R&D director at Baldwin an inventor brought us an almost identical action. He had obtained at least a U.S. patent on the thing (otherwise we would not have been able to look at it).

It was, to say the least, cumbersome. The reciprocating mass of the whole assembly was quite high which became a noticeable limitation when trying to make it repeat quickly rather defeating the purpose of having a repetition lever. It was difficult to regulate. Backchecking was a problem. And, without running all the numbers, it we couldn’t figure out how the thing could be made and installed for less than the cost of a grand action.

In the end we couldn’t see where the market would be.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1162462 - 03/13/09 06:48 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: accordeur]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Found it, it just down the page a bit. It IS amuch simpler and elegant design and Mr. Fandrich claims it's even better than a grand. I would love to try it someday


"Better" is a rather vague term. We built a hundred pianos with this action, though, and I will say most pianists who played them found it easier to achieve consistent and reliable pianissimo on this action than on even the best regulated grand action.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1162540 - 03/13/09 11:38 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Del]
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 1645
I've seen the Fandrich action and had a chance to play them for a short while. At a Guild conference not so long ago in California, it was not far from a Stanwoodized A Steinway. I won't say the Fandrich repeated more quickly, because my technique is not sufficient to make the best use of either of them! However, I will say that the Fandich/Klima (I think it was anyway) gave nothing away to the grand. And the upright probably cost less than a Stanwood installation not including a piano or even an action!


Edited by Dave Stahl (03/13/09 11:39 PM)
_________________________
Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
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#1162556 - 03/14/09 12:08 AM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Dave Stahl]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
There you go, now if people could apply the same KISS method to soundboard/bridge/scaling etc.... and cars!!!!!! We would have a perfect world. Who's first?

Now for a picture of the hickman action?

Will the next generation piano be an upright? Actions now can do it.

Composite actions can now be applied in a variety of situations. Keysticks will follow the need. Scaling/upright/grand/bridge placement whatever etc...

Who will design the equivalent of Steinway's D. At a lower cost, both environmental, BETTER, more stable etc...

Let's hear it....
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1162574 - 03/14/09 01:16 AM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: accordeur]
Horwinkle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 1011
I'm not sure I understand this action.

The parts circled in blue are located where the backcheck should be. But why two of them? And why are they nowhere near the hammer tail?

Is it because the part circled in red is attached to the hammer butt, so the red-circled part (and the red-felted part above it) act as an overgrown catcher? If so, isn't that rather massive? Doesn't it's extreme length add greatly to the hammer's angular momentum?

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#1162912 - 03/14/09 09:55 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Horwinkle]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Horwinkle
I'm not sure I understand this action.

The parts circled in blue are located where the backcheck should be. But why two of them? And why are they nowhere near the hammer tail?

Is it because the part circled in red is attached to the hammer butt, so the red-circled part (and the red-felted part above it) act as an overgrown catcher? If so, isn't that rather massive? Doesn't it's extreme length add greatly to the hammer's angular momentum?


The part circled in red is the functional equivalent of the catcher. The grand piano style backcheck is attached. Yes, the whole thing is rather massive. The catch surface (normally the back surface of the grand hammer is the wood block just to the left of the backcheck.

It is almost the equivalent of a complete grand action coupled to most of a vertical action.

There is a lot of extra mass involved—some of which hangs well out there away from the action center—which severely limits its repetition potential. As well, it would be frightfully expensive to manufacture, install and regulate.

The answer lies in simplicity, not greater complexity.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1165263 - 03/19/09 12:44 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: accordeur]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1724
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: accordeur

Now for a picture of the hickman action?


The Hickman Action at your service. It seems quite a brilliant design--almost no friction, much longer life, and fewer adjustments. I played one once, and despite it being on an old piano that hadn't been touched in years, it felt marvelous.

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#1165310 - 03/19/09 02:00 PM Re: Double repetition action for upright pianos [Re: Roy123]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Here's a picture of a Staib-Abendschein (wish I could understand just how all these actions really work from the diagrams...):

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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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