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I was wondering, how much classical training is appropriate for a jazz student in your opinion?

In my experience a lot of US schools seemed to be very biased. In most schools you end up taking more courses on classical music than jazz. This is just an example but a lot of schools share similar curriculum.

3-4 semester of classical history
and
1 semester of jazz history (open to non-music majors)

4 semesters of classical theory
3-4 semester of jazz theory

8+semester of major performance ensemble
Since jazz ensembles don't count, guitar/piano players end up in choir.

Depending on the school you have to do 2 yrs of classical or some times even a junior recital in classical.

Are all these classical requirement really that necessary for a jazz musician? I find that I use very little of that knowledge in real life. Is it really that important that I have a detailed knowledge of reniassance history, at an expense of having a very cursory understanding of history of jazz?

People explained that choir well help me with ear-training & etc, but in reality it just took time away from transcribing and other things I could be doing. And I certainly can't really figure out how learning the 12-tone row or writing a fugue has helped me either.

And finally, is it really necessary that a jazz student is able to pass a classical audition? give a full classical recital? I know some schools turned down really good young players as their prospective students, because they couldn't do a classical audition... does that really make sense?

It makes even less sense for bass and horn players.. i know my school didn't accept this bass player for the reasons above, and now he is playing professionally & touring with groups. Maybe it's good for him, because if he did get accepted he would have to be in orchestra and other stuff.

The effect of classical training is very mixed.. I know some people who went to school and had to do junior recital in classical, and most of them didn't go very far in jazz... and I know plenty of people who had 'some' classical training, it wasn't extensive but they seem to do fine as working musician.

I think that with any art, especially music the more angles from which you understand your craft the more possibilities you create in terms of performance, composing and teaching.I had one jazz class in college. I don't think I learned much from that class but that didn't mean I would abandon that area of thinking.Through self-study I continue to learn the piano. Amazing how fast the time goes and everyday I think what can I learn now?

rada
www.pianopassions.com

Rada,

There is a HUGE difference between taking one jazz class as a classical or non-music major and having to take mostly classical classes as a jazz major. It would be like biology major having to take more physics class than biology. I think a lot of people were frustrated with the demanding classical requirements, because it did not give them any time to work on their jazz stuff.

Sure there is a benefit in doing anything, but is it really going to help you with what you need?

I decided to post this thread after reading the "Keith Jarrett: classical musicians & improvisation". It seems like both classical and jazz pianists agree that their craft are very different and require very different skills.. so why isn't the curriculum in schools reflect that? why is there this underlining bias that somehow you have to be well versed in classical music in order to be a jazz musician?

btw I am not saying there should be no classical history, theory etc. It's probably good to have a one semester of classical history as an overview. What I am concerned and puzzled about is why so many jazz school in US(as far as I know) require so much classical stuff such that it takes up majority of your core requirement? Why is it that jazz history classes are open to all majors but classical history classes requires that you are a music major and are able to analyze music.. why is it that big bands and small jazz ensembles are not considered 'legitimate' ensemble to earn ensemble units.

I really don't know how jazz curriculum is like elsewhere, but I looked up many of the schools in US and it was very similar. However, I could be wrong, maybe this represents a very small portion of schools with jazz majors.

Generally, non-accomplished classical pianists have the following skills:

reading music but not good at sight reading
good technical ability
can name all of the chords
know a lot of music theory
familiarity with the piano
little ability of composing but not much
can't improvise
don't know chord progressions and are not very harmonic
know all scales

Generally, non-accomplished jazz pianists have the following skills:

ear training
chord progressions and harmonic ability
can name all the chords
good at improvising
know some theory
usually have poor technique
familiarity with the piano
don't know how to compose because they can't read music
can sometimes know all the scales

Classical pianists with some jazz training are usually accomplished in the following areas:

good at reading and sight-reading music
good at composing
know chord progressions and have great harmonic ability
can name all the chords
outstanding technical ability
ear training
know all the music theory
good at improvising
know all the scales

noskilliz,

I think you may be generalizing too much. Good portion of jazz majors here had previous classical experience, and they can play chopin etudes or fantasie impromptu. At entry-college level, they are equipped with enough knowledge to compose and sigh-read, well, ear training, theory etc.

So my question is why is it that jazz majors cirriculum is not set up so that you specialized in what you learn? By doing a junior recital in classical you end up doing more classical than jazz as a jazz major, and most people even some of the teacher told me how their cirriculum does not reflect the real world at all, and how students end up not being prepared for the real world as a gigging musician.

I agree that some classical training helps, and most people do have that before they start college, but is extensive knowledge and training really all that necessary?

I've studied composition at graduate level. I've also further studied composition with my mentor. I feel that doing so has in no way stifled or impeded my improvisational ability, and as a matter of fact, the study and analysis of composition, as well as orchestration has greatly enhanced my imrpvosations because of a far more profound insight into the compositional process and the form analyses I've undertaken in my pursuit of a complete understanding of each style and genre.

Here's an example. It's a section from a 14 part suite that I wrote, in the style of "the Moonlight Sonata". Although I scored the piece for full orchestra, 4 extra percussionists, as well as 4 standard drum kits positioned at the four corners of the performance area (antiphonal/spatial use), two pianos, and two fretless electric basses, this recording was multi-tracked on a Korg synth, track 1: bass, track 2: piano I, track 3: viola.
It's the main elements of the music presented sparingly (since I don't have an orchestra handy!).
Of interest, it's a note for note piano improvisation that I heard one day in the style of the Moonlight Sonata. After I played and recroded it, I liked it enough to write it down, then adapt it for two pianos and orchestra:

http://www.mediafire.com/?evvnjzyo5tl

It's not jazz, but it is generated by the same processes that generates "jazz" improvisation.

Thanks BJ that was cool to listen to. Keep sharing.
DPVJAZZ

Which jazz schools require such an emphasis on classical subjects for their jazz majors? I would like to know since no specific examples seem to have been mentioned.

Yes but Keith Jarrett was touring the country playing classical piano music before he was a teenager. Jazz gets its harmony from classical/baroque/romantic and more contemporary composers like Debussy etc. In the college musical experience, I think biases have developed towards studying these types of artists, but what are you going to do?

grantsaxkeys,

yes but how many jazz pianists toured playing classical piano as a teenager? like I said a lot of people i knew in college were able to play chopin etudes & other demanding pieces, and I am sure they can do a classical recital if they had to, but is it necessary that take an 1-3yrs out of their time just to prepare for a classical recital? I can understand how that my be relevant on piano, but that requirement usually applies to horn & bass players too.

I think its kind of strange that we learned all these compositional technique by debussy, mahler.. etc but most of these schools don't have jazz composition class & you never really get to learn about the composition styles of Gil Evans, Duke Ellington...etc

Jazz+

I looked at curriculums for state schools in CA and other parts of America, and in general the curriculums seemed very similar, except in the east coast. I could be wrong about this. When you compare it to what they have in Berklee school of music, the difference is astounding.

Bjones

I agree that studying composition can be extremely helpful, but what I see more often than not are students who have all these knowledge in classical music but spent very little time developing their improv skills. a good number of players in schools can sight read well and have chops but as far as improv is concerned all they really know is 'what scales to play over x chord', there was very little understanding of the jazz 'language'. they don't have enough fundamentals in improvisation to really apply what they learned in classical music.

The first three colleges I searched all focus predominately on jazz for their Jazz studies Programs.

http://www.csun.edu/~mujazz/curr.htm

http://www.sfsu.edu/~jazz/

http://music.csueastbay.edu/jazz.php

hmm maybe the schools I looked into just happened to have more classical emphasis.. and some of the schools requirements look very different from last time I checked. I am checking several schools but good number of them require that you do classical audition and study classical for the first 2 years, which is less than doing a junior recital which takes 3 yrs. Maybe things are changing for the better.

It seems like in my school jazz majors were required to take all the classical theory and history, but in most of other schools, its not necessary to take all the upper level history/theory .. which would add up to like taking 6 more classes/18 semester units than most other schools.

I hope I have read this post correctly. I downloaded the piece # RI-0040 and I could not hear any jazz in it myself. May I suggest 'new age' ?

I do not intend to be rude, just confused. I have listened to jazz for at least 67 years and have a good sized piano jazz collection.

I cannot really see the connection here in this post. I think jazz must be an enhancement of a theme, possibly a popular song. The should be a solid rhythm that has a beat. It must invigorate the listeners reflexes and promote dance probably.

Should there be a style of jazz called abstract or entrancement music ?

swingal