|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
71 members (anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, 17 invisible),
2,224
guests, and
427
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
In my latest composition I made use of a special technique that I came up with a while ago. The basic idea is that you depress the keys to the point just before the hammer is released (depending on the instrument it's either easy or very hard to feel this point), from there you push down in one rapid movement and as a result the hammer barely hits the strings and causes a kind of super pianissimo, way more silent than it's possible to produce with regular playing (but still audible in a medium sized concert hall, at least when playing chords). The technique only works on grand pianos, not uprights. My problem is, how do I express this in the score. I've used special noteheads when I want this technique used, but a verbal instruction is still necessary. The explanation should be short, but still explain clearly what I want. My take so far is "Depress the keys silently to the release point. From there, play the notes in one sharp movement, producing a quiet, muted sound." Would you as pianists understand what to do if you were faced with this description in a score? I'm not even sure if you can talk about a "release point" in a piano, is there something better to call this? Or does anyone know about another composer who has used this technique and already invented some kind of notation for it? This might sound like an issue for the composer's forum, but actually when it comes to notation, the performer's opinion is more important.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I know of the technique you refer to, but only because I "discovered" it accidentally. I'm not aware of compositions that deliberately employ it, and can't guess how it would be notated.
I believe that a technical description would include the words let-off and/or aftertouch. An instruction using those terms would be completely clear as to the intended manner of execution, at least to a pianist who already knows what they mean.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
Thank you Steven. Though as a non native speaker, I'm not entirely sure how to use those terms... Any suggestions?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I don't have the technical knowledge to use them accurately with any confidence, either! I hope someone who does will weigh in with some advice about how such an instruction would be best worded.
FWIW, I do think the language you originally proposed would probably suffice, provided a pianist already knows such a thing is possible.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654 |
I used to use that technique in the lh for Chopin prelude # 4.
The way I described it is depressing the keys slowly until you feel the slip past the escape mechanism, but do not sound any notes. From there you can play the notes. I'm not sure if my piano tech. terminology is correct.
I believe that this can only be done on a grand piano.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
I actually have another language issue also in the same piece. There's an improvisational part where I give verbal instructions about the register to play in. Where I come from, middle C is called c1, the next C above is c2 and so on, but I've understood that this is not the case in the rest of the world... I've seen many different versions of naming different octaves, what would be the best universal numbering system to use when giving instructions in English?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,807 |
Roger:I Aftertouch is the part of the keystroke that occurs immediately after let off. So you could just replace "release point" by "let off" in the sentence you used in you OP.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803 |
Where I come from, middle C is called c1, the next C above is c2 and so on, but I've understood that this is not the case in the rest of the world... I've seen many different versions of naming different octaves, what would be the best universal numbering system to use when giving instructions in English? In most of the world, middle C is C4. The lowest C is C1 and the highest is C8. On some digital pianos, as well as in some midi software, middle C may be called C3. This is because digital designers like to start counting from zero instead of one. But C1 through C8 is the most widely accepted.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
Thank you pianolover, that was exactly the answer I was looking for! I knew that "release point" didn't sound quite right.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
Thanks Joe. If I use numbers, I shall do as you suggested. Though as there are so many different variants, I think I shall still try to come up with a more clear way to explain my intentions.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856 |
C4 is digital talk. In the fortepiano, clavichord and harpsichord world middle c is c'. Beethoven's piano went from FF to f''' (later around 1803 he received an Erard that went from FF (contra-F) to c''''). In 1818 he received a Broadwood CC to c''''. The 's are often displayed as a superscript. C4 meaning the top note on Beethoven's piano. So you are right C1 is middle c but write it as a superscript. Below is c, then C then CC. For your pianissimo I'd say 'allow jack a gentle release'.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
There's apparently far too many ways to notate octave ranges... I think I decided to go with Helmholtz notation, with some extra explanation. In my score the staff is reduced to one line with dots (without leger lines) placed around it showing the approximate texture to play. I don't want to use a five line staff, because then most musicians would try to play the notes as written. The line represents Bb5, or Bb'', and the register should be chosen depending on how far the dots are above or beneath the line. If the explanation contains this information: " The line represents the approximate location of Bb''. Stay above c' (middle C) at all times.", then it should be clear, right? If someone doesn't know what Bb'' means, then they should be able to figure it out as I say that c'=middle C. There's also a G clef, an 8va line and the key signature of Db-major, which actually already explains what staff line it is, but I wouldn't count on performers figuring that out... About the 'allow jack a gentle release', that would be misleading. If you first press down to the let off, then allow a gentle release, then the hammers won't reach the strings. The notes have to be played very sharply. This of course is very dangerous, especially when playing chords, because if one key is held slightly too high before playing the chord, then that note will sound with a horrible accent. But hey, piano playing ain't supposed to be easy!
Last edited by RogerW; 03/27/09 07:09 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675 |
I used to use that technique in the lh for Chopin prelude # 4.
The way I described it is depressing the keys slowly until you feel the slip past the escape mechanism, but do not sound any notes. From there you can play the notes. I'm not sure if my piano tech. terminology is correct.
I believe that this can only be done on a grand piano. Does the quality of the grand piano make a difference? The final movement of the 6 little pieces for piano, Op. 19 by Schoenberg ends with a pppp marking and a direction to play "like a breath/whiff" (my translation of the German). This technique sound like a perfect way to execute the final notes. However, my first attempts today with this technique were mixed - the A-flat two octaves below middle C would either give me no sound, the correct sound, or a really loud sound. If it's not the piano then I'll continue trying to get this right.
Professional pianist and piano teacher.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441
Full Member
|
OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 441 |
Does the quality of the grand piano make a difference? It's very different on different instruments. When I first experimented with this technique, it was on a 1974 Steinway on which it was very easy to feel the right spot. Then I tried it out in the concert hall on a Steinway from the mid 80s, it was a bit harder, but still managable, so I decided to use the technique. Then in performance I ended up playing the other grand (there's two pianos in the piece), a 2006 Steinway, on which it was extremely difficult to find the exact let off spot. I actually had to play certain sections with regular touch as there was not time enough to use this technique. I've also tried it on a few Yamaha grands, on some it works easily, on others it is harder. It is possible that it doesn't work at all on some grands, though I haven't bumped into a grand like that yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|