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#117136 - 02/01/02 01:45 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Well, let me answer that question for you Derek. Did it ever occur to you that your friend out to have been kicking his technician for sitting on his hands for 10 years and not telling him he had a problem while it was under warranty? Taking him with him to get his advice when he was buying it obviously would have been of no use, the man apparently didn't have the good sense to tell anyone what he was finding. Your friend could have bought the piano without taking his technician with him, because if the technician had been worth a dime he would have pointed it out the first time he tuned the thing and it would have been replaced under warranty.

Next, did it ever occur to you that this technician who waits 10 years to tell his client/friend he has a problem may have been making a statement that wasn't a fact? Just because he said it had had loose pins from day one doesn't mean it did. Actually, it sounds to me like it *didn't*. Either the tech is a lousy tech, or the piano didn't have a problem for nearly 10 years. If he's a lousy tech, he wouldn't have been any help in selecting a piano. If there wasn't a real problem initially which is what I believe the case to be, then he would have approved the piano on inspection and everyone would be sitting around wondering why the pins were now loose.

Third, and then I am going to ignore you because for a Phd you aren't much of a mental challenge - if your friend's technician was worth a dime, he'd already know that if the piano is only just out of warranty, just because the dealer is saying he won't do anything doesn't mean the story has ended. If it is truly a high quality piano as you say, then all he has to do is call the manufacturer. I can't think of a single manufacturer who values their reputation who would refuse to honor a major problem such as this on a piano that had only recently aged out of warranty. If your friend will ignore his lousy technician, you, and the dealer he bought it from and call the manufacturer, my guess is that when he explains the situation to them they will gladly take care of the problem to keep a happy customer. See Derek, if you do business with a prima-donna, you can get results when you need them.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117137 - 02/01/02 01:58 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Steve,

I'm not surprised that Larry helped you when you were buying a piano. I have seen the best of him on this forum, as well as the worst.

Basically I'm in total agreement with your comment about professionalism. But, in my own defense, my words degraded into what this discussion has become because Larry was not professional in the earlier thread when he used the phrase "it is a silly waste of time".

The word 'silly' is significant in the sense that it is a judgemental word. Professionals are not judgemental. Nor do professionals throw people out of their store because they somehow managed to insulted them. Professionals do not assume that a customer thinks he is a crook if the customer wants a second opinion.

I'm sorry, but I do not like people who know everything, refuse to admit they've made a mistake, or acknowledge that there is another side to the coin.

The mistake I made was to call Larry on something he wrote on this forum.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117138 - 02/01/02 02:16 PM Re: King of the Hill
ryan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/01
Posts: 1995
Loc: Colorado
I am very, very surprised that the dealer who sold this "high end" piano did not ask the manufacturer to fix the problem himself, especially one this serious. I know a few dealers of high end pianos. Very rarely a high end piano will develop a serious problem after the warranty period is over. In the instances that I am aware of, it was the dealer that contacted the manufacturer and got the problem resolved for the customer. There is something wrong with this story. It almost sounds like this was a black market piano that covered by the dealer but not by the manufacturer.

The other problem I have is the technician who continues to tune a piano can't hold a tune because of loose tuning pins, a detail he avoids telling his client. Being a Steinway snob does not even approach explaining this - either the guy is an idiot or the story is missing some significant details. I agree with Larry, it this technician didn't tell the client for 10 years about the tuning pins, he would have been no help during an in-store evaluation. I am sortof curious, though, what the real story is...

Ryan

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#117139 - 02/01/02 02:51 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Larry,

As I said, the tech is a PPD. Anything non-Steinway is garbage. He believes in the don't ask, don't tell principle. If you don't ask him about the tuning pins, he won't tell. Why should he bother? The piano is NOT a Steinway.

Was there really a problem with the pinblock? Well my buddy had 2 other techs come in to give their assessment. They both agreed the pins were loose.

No, I did not know that a piano just out of warranty would be taken care of by the manufacturer. But, please remember, you specifically stated that one must purchase from a high-quality dealer. One, such as yourself, who has a stellar reputation. Well, this dealer does. So when my friend called, why did they not tell him to call the manufacturer, or call them for him? Apparently buying a piano from a dealer with a stellar reputation is NOT enough. Unless, as you said, you buy from a dealer who is a PPD. But then you have to worry about saying something that might insult him. I'm not sure it's worth the hassle.

To replace this piano at today's cost would be around $70K. Junk is not sold at that price, its praises have been sung repeatedly on this forum (even by you if I remember correctly). I think it is safe to say it is a high-quality piano.

My PHD is in Electrical Engineering. My dissertation work focused on fabrication, characterization and numerical simulation of compound semiconductor field-effect transistors. Quite a mouthful, ain't it? Bet your surpised I can even say it. Good thing I've got the plaque on the wall (from MIT) to refresh my memory. Now what was that you were saying about mental challenges?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117140 - 02/01/02 03:14 PM Re: King of the Hill
wghornsby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 201
Loc: KY
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
My dissertation work focused on fabrication[/b]


You're making it way too easy for Larry here! \:\)
_________________________
wgh

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#117141 - 02/01/02 03:17 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Haha, you're right! I didn't even think of it that context.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117142 - 02/01/02 04:16 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Larry:[ and "TO WHOM IT MAY APPLY"]

CONGRATULATIONS to another FORUM CLASSIC!!!!

[With your *anticipated* permission,I have it
printed, framed and HUNG ON MY STORE WALLS!!]

In addition, I'll be happy to pay you royalties for public display in what can only be called a....

"DECLARATION OF COMMON SENSE,insight and pledge of INTEGRITY in the piano business"!!

Now, some of your readers here, don't understand such language. For whatever reason
their life experience,mother's teachings or rawness of cultural-ethical [business?] background, suspect the DEVIL INCARNATE to follow their each and every footstep in life.

Including when buying a milkshake at Wendy's.

Strongly suspect,they're hiding [as usual!] behind convenient aliases and false names of sorts.

Because they're at least intelligent enough to also recognize the obvious danger of looking a little 'stupid' to come out swinging [from nowhere] and talking sheer nonsense.

Which, even [especially?] in the case of a
supposed PhD...is a forgiving mistake.

At least we all know it's not a PhD in music,
piano making, spelling [PHD??] or -
God forbid......... COMMON SENSE!

[Remember I said "TO WHOM IT MAY APPLY"!]


Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117143 - 02/01/02 05:01 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Dear Norbert,

\:\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117144 - 02/01/02 05:23 PM Re: King of the Hill
swb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 68
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Norbert is right on target about one thing. The problem here is INTEGRITY in the piano business. Larry may well be an ethical retailer, but the real reason someone comes into his store with a tech, demanding to inspect that new, high-quality piano is all of the other, low-integrity dealers who lie, twist, etc..., so that the average buyer has no idea which end is up. It's hardly a problem confined to piano sales (I know this - I'm a lawyer!!) It's insulting to the ethical business person to be mistrusted because of the proliferation on unethical people in the field. But, until businesses like piano sale (and law) can squeeze out these people, those of us who try to run an honest shop will always have to endure dealing with customers who insist we earn their trust (and even then, may not really trust us).

Fortunately, the little spat here shows what's great aboutAmerica. If you don't like how Larry, or anyone else does business, go somewhere else. And Larry has a perfect right to run his business as he sees fit. If he's not doing it right, he won't have customers. Which gets back to the original issue about Yamaha. Some people may think Yamaha is overpriced for the product. But as long as there are customers out there who will pay for their pianos, I expect they'll keep making them the way they do and charging the prices they can get.
_________________________
SWB

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#117145 - 02/01/02 05:43 PM Re: King of the Hill
freddie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 185
Loc: Indiana
Hey Penny, scratch my former post your right but really there are only a few affordable high quality verticals in mass of medium quality models)!!! Thanks jolly you rock!!! Too bad my bank account doesn't increase along with the quality of finer pianos. LOL

Hey Larry, If I end up having to get a used "Yamaha" vertical could I haul down from Indiana to you in the summer for some extra regulation stuff? I know you'll want to do some special action work on it ;\) .

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't have the nerve to bring another tech into someone else's shop. As far as manners go, I think it's rude. If it's a very expensive used piano then I could understand it. If it's new make sure you can trust the dealer/brand to honor the warranty. I wouldn't do it to ya' Larry, Rich, Steve C., Hank, Norbert etc... I think it's poor manners to do something like that. If your that distrustful buy the piano from someone else.

Freddie
_________________________
"The best thing about being a bachelor is that you can get into bed from either side" - James Dean

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#117146 - 02/01/02 05:43 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
SWB,

Only a lawyer (and probably a good one at that) could have made a salutory synopsis and in the last couple of sentences put this choo-choo back on track!

Congratulations! \:D

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jolly ]
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117147 - 02/01/02 05:56 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Fantastic!

Common sense restored.

[P.S. I'm glad to see not everybody here suffers from PHD,PhD,phd,pHd..or whatever..]

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117148 - 02/01/02 06:54 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I agree with Jolly, SWB. That was a very well written post.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117149 - 02/01/02 07:30 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Norbert, if you had any common sense you'd take a remedial English class. You need one. PHD -> PPD, rather than PhD. Get it? Probably not.

Have no fear Freddie, I wouldn't touch a piano from Norbert or Larry with a 10 foot pole. But I most definitely would buy one from Rich or Hank who are true professionals. But thanks for telling me to buy my piano somewhere else anyway. Now go wipe off your brown nose.

Try and behave boys, I've got real work to do. Aren't there a couple of pianos that need to be polished???

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117150 - 02/01/02 07:42 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
And this from the Phd who tried to base his argument on what "professionalism" is.

Sniff.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117151 - 02/01/02 08:12 PM Re: King of the Hill
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
I'm not taking sides, really, but when someone gets picky about spelling, I, the editor without a Phd, have to speak up. It's judgmental, for goodness' sake! No E after the G!

Thank you,
penny
;\)

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#117152 - 02/01/02 08:14 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
"To whom it may apply"

Defendant confirms identity.

No further questions, Your Honour.

P.S. I got my own PhD in 1986.
Without remedial English classes.
If it's important for anyone to know.

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117153 - 02/01/02 08:32 PM Re: King of the Hill
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Norbert,
You didn't use the word "judgemental!" And, despite your lack of spacing (which I suspect is more of a computer problem than a mental hiccup), your use of "whom" is heartening! I thought only I and my 7-year-old knew its proper use.

Now, if you say "presently" to mean "soon" and not "currently," I may have to ditch a certain dark and handsome husband!

penny \:D

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#117154 - 02/01/02 08:40 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Penny:

...NOT to ditch a certain and handsome husband....

...has an everyday equivalent I was told....

..when I sang while playing piano at bars...

...NOT to quit ....my daytime job.

[P.S... I didn't!]

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117155 - 02/01/02 08:40 PM Re: King of the Hill
freddie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 185
Loc: Indiana
What...?????

Just to set the record straight I like everyone that comes to this forum at this present time. I said I like Larry, Norbert, Steve C., Rich, etc.. and I meant it.


Freddie
_________________________
"The best thing about being a bachelor is that you can get into bed from either side" - James Dean

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#117156 - 02/01/02 08:42 PM Re: King of the Hill
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Freddie, you're more than welcome to come visit me anytime. Cleveland's just a few hours drive away!
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#117157 - 02/01/02 08:51 PM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Penny:

Now, if you say "presently" to mean "soon" and not "currently," I may have to ditch a certain dark and handsome husband!

penny \:D[/b]


Sorry, my wife says I'm taken. But I can fax you a copy of my Oxford degree, and with it, the right to wear a silver dress sword on the left side.

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#117158 - 02/01/02 08:56 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Derick..Larry..anyone..

"TO WHOM THIS MAY CONCERN"

It's Friday night and time to get together for an old German custom.

When we were young and beat hell out of each other,we all got together later for a beer.

It's like at the end of World War ll, when
old enemies were suddenly dating the other side's daughters [and wifes?] and munching away on Schnitzel, Sauerkraut and beer.

[Getting hungry, by the way!]

In the end,the wisest words were spoken by General Patton who just released the last German General taken prisoner the day before.

He said: " On you go, Pal,because we're no longer enemies.

From now on we're all customers of the same goddamn companies!!"

Make that a customer of Loewenbrau,Dortmunder
Warsteiner,Becks, Henkel....whatever.

I'll have one on all of you tonight!

Prost....and thanks for a great brawl!

[P.S. I AM going out with my wife!!]

....now which other companies could General Patton possibly have had in mind..........

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117159 - 02/01/02 08:59 PM Re: King of the Hill
BrulBruce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 332
Loc: Long Island
Can we get back to the original discussion of which pianos are the best?
I need some help here, people!!

I'm close to buying a new Petrof 125, but the Steinway store in NYC (Steinway Hall - what a great name, huh?) has a 20 yr old 1098. Is this a good piano? I keep seeing bad things about Sterinway verticals.

The thing is, if I buy from Steinway, it effectively is a deposit for a better Steinway in the future due to their lifetime trade up (same goes for their Bostons - are these really just Kwais? They have a new Boston for same price as the 1098).

What's the real deal about Steinway verticals?

Also, stop fighting!!!!

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#117160 - 02/01/02 09:15 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Bruce,

Don't let the sales pitch of the Steinway vertical or the Boston being a "deposit toward a Steinway" sway you. It is part of the Steinway sales pitch to make it look as if their pianos hold their value so well that the guarantee of all your money back on trade is some sort of exclusive benefit. The fact is, most any dealer selling most any brand can offer you the same deal when you're paying full list. Often they can give you all your money back for what you are trading even if you aren't talking about full list. I give a full tradein value to everyone on anything.

As for a 20 year old Swy 1098 against a new Petrof, to me the answer is obvious. The 1098 is hated by nearly any technician you ask. And considering that the Sway is 20 years old, the Petrof in my opinion is the better choice. Do not allow the brand name on the piano to dictate things to you.

I'd also suggest that you slow down a little, and compare a few other pianos. But if you already have and have narrowed it down to these two, or just don't want to compare any more - if you're wanting an opinion as to which way to go between the two, I'd say get the Petrof. It's a fine piano, it's new, and in my opinion Petrof verticals are superior to Steinway verticals.

And in keeping with the rest of this "silly" thread ( \:D ) (sorry, couldn't resist....) before you decide to buy the 1098 be sure to take a tech with you to check the pin torque on it. Most of them are so tight they almost won't turn, which is almost as bad as loose pins.

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Larry ]
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117161 - 02/01/02 09:17 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Brul:

You're on the wrong thread!

This one is about the "King on the Hill"...
...or something to the effect...

Then it became world war lll.

Now it's peace again.

We need to take vote for a new King.

[ I'm a conscientious objector!]

Long live the King!!

norbert marten

off....off....off
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117162 - 02/01/02 09:34 PM Re: King of the Hill
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3288
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
This working for a living thing is killing me. I go to work and by the time I come home the whole thing is finished!

I am still interested in the beer-and-song thing, though....
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#117163 - 02/01/02 09:37 PM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by BrulBruce:


The thing is, if I buy from Steinway, it effectively is a deposit for a better Steinway in the future due to their lifetime trade up (same goes for their Bostons - are these really just Kwais? [/b]


It really is not "the thing". Steinway prices will continue to go up. Your asset will not. Most likely you will have to trade it in where you bought it, and the moment they know you expect to trade, the range for dickering on price narrows considerably. And what if your tastes change? Or your income doesn't? You might be able to afford a really nice Petrof grand (or a used Steinway grand somewhere else), but will you be able to afford a Steinway grand from Steinway?

I say buy the one that speaks to you TODAY! You may get hit by a car before you get to trade it in, and least you will feel you've had the opportunity to play something you really liked. Of course, St. Peter might let you come back down to earth so you can take advantage of the "the thing"....


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#117164 - 02/01/02 09:53 PM Re: King of the Hill
robe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 34
Loc: coopersburg, PA
I wouldn't touch a piano from Norbert or Larry with a 10 foot pole...

Dear PHD,
What length of pole would be required to touch a piano from Norbert or Larry?

Would the same length of pole touch both pianos simultaneously?

Does pole length really matter?


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#117165 - 02/02/02 12:03 AM Re: King of the Hill
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Penny-
We just can't talk about spelling. It could start a real war. I've been reading here about 16 months. Do you realize just how many people CANNOT spell the word definitely? I mean how could I possibly ever mention this to a guy like Ryan. I use him as an example; because if I ever were to meet him, I'm SURE I would like him....lots! And I would NEVER want to hurt his feelings. ;\) And to borrow a phrase from Larry........."I just couldn't resist" \:D
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

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Video clip for classical music?
by Nikolas
04/20/14 05:43 PM
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