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#1171198 - 03/30/09 04:40 AM Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS?
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
I searched the Yamaha site and came up with these 2 quotes:

=================================================
"Realistic Piano Action
The P-140 features Yamaha's highly acclaimed Graded Hammer Effect keyboard, the result of more than a century's worth of piano craftsmanship and ingenuity. It's designed so that the keys in the lower registers have a heavier touch than those in the upper, which helps to create the feel of an acoustic piano. Just take a look at the different-sized hammers under the lid of any grand piano and you'll see why Yamaha puts the Graded Hammer Effect keyboard in all P-Series instruments."

"GHS Keyboard Provides Touch as Real as its Tone
Besides outstanding sound, the YDP-213 offers incredibly natural piano touch. Applying the know-how acquired from over 100 years of crafting fine acoustic pianos, Yamaha has designed a remarkably expressive GHS (Graded Hammer Standard) keyboard. Similar to the popular Graded Hammer Effect action, GHS keys are weighted heavier on lower notes and gradually become lighter as you play up the keyboard. Pianist will notice the realism as soon as they start playing."
==============================================

I've read elsewhere in this forum that the GHE is better than the GHS, but I'm still wondering how it's better.

Also, although my goal is to find a DP that comes close to sounding like an acoustic, I'm having trouble grasping why graded weighting is important to the sound. It seems an artifact of grand pianos and irrelevant to people such as I who will never own or play one.

I'm prepared for the flames..
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1171767 - 03/31/09 12:20 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: pianozuki]
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
you just have to try both to see which action you like the best.

GH action is supposed to be better than GHS, simply because GHS action is only on entry level Yamaha DPs while GH is on middle to upper end models. i myself prefer GH action, but it's subjective. also, it depends how much you can spend. if you are looking for a Yamaha DP in $1000-2000, then GH or even GH3 (CLP330) is only action you can find on the DPs in that range. but for anything under $1000, your only choice is GHS action, such as on DGX630, P85, YDP-S31 or YDP140.

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#1171846 - 03/31/09 05:14 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: signa]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: signa
you just have to try both to see which action you like the best.


Well, sure, I would do that. But how is the GH(E) better than the GHS? Or if not better, what is the mechanical, physical difference?

Also (I repeat), although my goal is to find a DP that comes close to sounding like an acoustic, I'm having trouble grasping why graded weighting is important to the sound. It seems an artifact of grand pianos and irrelevant to people such as I who will never own or play one. Or is it relevant?


Edited by pianozuki (03/31/09 05:16 AM)
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1171883 - 03/31/09 07:42 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: pianozuki]
Geoffk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 757
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
The technique that you use to play the piano repoitoire assumes that the keyboard touch behaves in a specific manner. The keyboard has some "weight" and inertia and it responds to touch and velocity in a predictable, natural and controllable way.

From experience, I can tell you that a real piano action is absolutely the most controllable, expressive and "best" for piano music. Unweighted or unrealistic keyboards can be hard to get good expression out of, even if they have velocity sensitivity built in. This directly affects the sound, since highlighting single notes in a phrase and other aspects of play may be more difficult.

If you don't care about piano-style playing (i.e. you prefer organ-style keyboards), than the lightest action you can find is probably fine. If you want to be a pianist and be able to transfer your technique to a real piano sometime, than a realistic, properly weighted action is essential.

To answer your initial question, GHS action is very light, and not very "realistic" (i.e. acoustic piano-like). GH is better weighted and feels more like a real piano, hence is more expressive. GH3 or NW are better still. GH3 has extra sensors allowing for rapid repetition of the same key; NW has white keys made of real wood for additional weight.

Roland also has different actions: PH-alpha-2, PH-2 and PH-2 plus escapement, but I find all of them to be fairly good.

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#1171971 - 03/31/09 10:40 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Geoffk]
Horwinkle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 1011
Graded weighting is nice, and the purists insist on it. But I find that there are other, more important differences among the keyboards.

I can't describe the mechanical design of the GHS, GHE, and GH3 keybaords. I don't have such information. But I can tell you that they feel very different.

The GH3 is superb. That's why I bought a CLP240 last year.
The GHE is not quite as good, but not bad. I tried it out on a YDP160.
I found the GHS intolerable (YDP140).

Specs cannot describe the feel. You have to try them for yourself.

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#1171995 - 03/31/09 11:21 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Horwinkle]
PersianPianoMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 11
Loc: Persia

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#1172178 - 03/31/09 05:25 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: PersianPianoMan]
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
I have spent a significant amount of time trying the YDP-140, DGX-620, YPG-625 (own by a friend) - They all have GHS action.

I used to own a P-120 for years, I have played for some time at several occasions the P-140, CP-33 and CP-300. AFAIK, these all use the GHE action.

I currently own an acoustic grand (Yamaha) and a Casio PX-320 - I am a happy camper so far.

I find both Yamaha GHS and GHE actions good, I can live with both. I do prefer the second for several reasons:
- The GHE is "silent" compared to the GHS, but it is OK if I play with headphones (which is 90% of the time true if I play the DP). It is probably due to the addition of padding on the GHE.
- The GHE seems to move more mass, giving more inertia to the hammer mechanism, without being heavier to play or slower. I would not say it is faster either, or at least, my playing level is not high enough to suffer from any speed issue with the GHE or the GHS. They probably use a longer, heavier mechanism and components in the GHE compared to the GHS.

These 2 previous characteristics makes the GHE an action that feels of better quality. So you focus more on the piece you are working on or play.
It also seems like the keys on the P-120 (GHE) were of better quality/thicker plastic than the one on the YDP-625 (GHS).

All of this is based on my personal experience, I did not open the DPs, did not any measurement or else - all of this is feedback from my fingers. And I still have a lot to learn about playing the piano.

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#1172188 - 03/31/09 05:33 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Horwinkle]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
What a great place Piano World is! I've been a member only 3 days and already I'm zeroing in on what to move to from my old Clavinova CLP-124 that I've had since the mid-90's. (I didn't use "move up to" because I learned today that the MRSP of the CLP-124 was around $5200!)

So it seems that if I'm going to get a Yamaha DP, and want the best imitation of a good acoustic, I should get at least one that has GH3. But then should I pay even more and get Natural Wood? This Yamaha "Product Finder" page is useful for seeing which Clavinovas and Moduses have what, and for accessing descriptions of features by mousehovering the INFOs. Here's the one on Natural Wood, GH3, and GH.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1172189 - 03/31/09 05:33 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Vincent L.]
WalkFar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 52
Loc: Urbana, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Vincent L.


I currently own an acoustic grand (Yamaha) and a Casio PX-320 - I am a happy camper so far.



Vincent L.- Since you have owned both digital Yamahas and the Casio PX_320, I am curious about how you find the Casio compares to the different Yamaha actions?

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#1172239 - 03/31/09 07:14 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: WalkFar]
Acquiescence Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 95
how would you rank the roland's PHA II against yamaha's GHE/GH3?

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#1172244 - 03/31/09 07:20 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: WalkFar]
Vincent L. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 349
Loc: Austin, TX
I will not compare with the acoustic. This is a hot debate. I would just say that the GHS, GHE and Casio actions are adequate for me to practice pieces (mainly classical) but I play them on the grand after some practice on the grand itself as the action of the acoustic is less forgiving and allows to do some additional effects (the wrists movements have an discreet/delicate impact on the way the acoustic will sound and I did not find any DP reproducing that - but I did not play them all).
and I enjoy playing the Casio as well, but I do not expect the same experience. The DP has its own qualities, or lack of defects ... and vice et versa.

I would put the DP actions I have experienced in that order - and once again, this is my opinion only - from the good to the better: GHS - Casio PX - GHE

The Casio is quieter than the GHS DPs I have tried even after close to a year of 1 hour average daily use. The GHE was quieter than the Casio. I kept my P-120 more than 3 years, and I did not notice any significant change during that time - very good heavy duty quality from Yamaha.
The Casio feels a little bit heavier than both GHS and GHE. I feel the GHS lighter than the GHE. It is not an issue to go from one to the other for me.
I have no issue with how quick these 3 action models are. As an Intermediate adult player, I am not good enough to have such problem.
Do not jump on me if you disagree, it is just my opinion.
You should never ever buy a piano without spending enough time on it. After all, you are the one to know what will fit you or not, what you will be able to deal with or what you will never bear or get accommodated to.

My 2 cents. I hope this helped.

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#1172333 - 03/31/09 11:06 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Vincent L.]
WalkFar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 52
Loc: Urbana, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Vincent L.
...

I would put the DP actions I have experienced in that order - and once again, this is my opinion only - from the good to the better: GHS - Casio PX - GHE

The Casio is quieter than the GHS DPs I have tried even after close to a year of 1 hour average daily use. The GHE was quieter than the Casio. I kept my P-120 more than 3 years, and I did not notice any significant change during that time - very good heavy duty quality from Yamaha.
The Casio feels a little bit heavier than both GHS and GHE. I feel the GHS lighter than the GHE. It is not an issue to go from one to the other for me.
I have no issue with how quick these 3 action models are. As an Intermediate adult player, I am not good enough to have such problem.
Do not jump on me if you disagree, it is just my opinion.
You should never ever buy a piano without spending enough time on it. After all, you are the one to know what will fit you or not, what you will be able to deal with or what you will never bear or get accommodated to.

My 2 cents. I hope this helped.


Thanks Vincent. I was just asking for curiosity sake. I have a Casio PX-320 and was just looking for an opinion on how it would rank compared to the Yamaha actions. Someday I hope to upgrade, but for now the Casio PX-320 works fine for me.

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#1172381 - 04/01/09 01:36 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: WalkFar]
Max Mindfield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 130
Loc: Houston, TX
Why Yamaha never makes stage piano with GH3\GH keyboard? Roland has PHA II+escapement+ivory (top-of-the-line) on 700GX, while Yamaha`s top stage CP-300 has only GHE (which is still not bad though). I`d rather spend 2K on great slab GH3\GH without speakers than 2.5K on a CLP wooden cabinet..

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#1172411 - 04/01/09 03:37 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Max Mindfield]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
GHE and GH are two different names for the same action i.e. GHE = GH.

The CP300, CP33, P140 and the new P155 all have the GH action. I don't know why there are two names for the same action. All I know is that they are one in the same.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1172447 - 04/01/09 06:49 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
Geoffk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 757
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
"how would you rank the roland's PHA II against yamaha's GHE/GH3?"

I think the top end Roland actions are just as good or better than the top end Yamaha actions. I think the Roland might be a bit heavier, bt some people seem to feel the opposite. Anyway, it's certainly comparable.

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#1172456 - 04/01/09 07:11 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Acquiescence]
Oblacone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 344
Loc: Norway :D
well your last thing was a digital piano like to an acoustic... if you have the money for it then you should look up Kawai CA111 it is identical to a acoustic piano at a glance but inside it has a sliding panel thing where you can toggle sounds and things, it has a AWA PROII Action with real wooden keys, they are graded waightet hammer action, a bit diffrent from those on Yamahas because their hammers hit the keys from under but the Kawai hits like a real piano.. its worth a look if you are considering a DP close to an akoustic. The speakers are also some advanced flip flop.
_________________________
Kawai KG-2C - my 5'10" of sheer happiness and joy!

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#1172501 - 04/01/09 08:53 AM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
Max Mindfield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 130
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Gerry Armstrong
GHE and GH are two different names for the same action i.e. GHE = GH.

The CP300, CP33, P140 and the new P155 all have the GH action. I don't know why there are two names for the same action. All I know is that they are one in the same.



Oh sorry confused with NW =)

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#1178048 - 04/10/09 04:26 PM Re: Yamaha Keyboards; How is GHE better than GHS? [Re: WalkFar]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: WalkFar
Originally Posted By: Vincent L.
...
....
My 2 cents. I hope this helped.


Thanks Vincent. I was just asking for curiosity sake. I have a Casio PX-320 and was just looking for an opinion on how it would rank compared to the Yamaha actions. Someday I hope to upgrade, but for now the Casio PX-320 works fine for me.


I'd like to say thanks as well. I'm a beginner but chose the PX-320 after comparing to several Yamaha and Roland DPs looking for the best feel/feature/price trade-off.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
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"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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