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#1179993 - 04/14/09 03:52 AM Re: reading music [Re: Chromatickeys]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Just a word on Forum etiquette ... moderator BB Player has seen fit to remind the motley
(and reading between the lines, to cut the bitching)
“Let’s keep the discussion on music notation please”.

Fresh newcomers might need a bit of time to cotton onto the importance of a helpful approach (avoid at all costs personal criticism) ... with 40,000 ever-friendly members, all with a highly individual take on keyboard music ... it goes without saying that threads may, and do, raise some way-out opinions.

These opinions should not be seen to be cast in stone ... but for what they are worth, however ... they spice the remarkable Forum input (bubble, bubble, toil and trouble!).

From a chappie who signed on with the membership on a mere 5000 ... who greatly enjoys and respects the motley company, might I suggest

"Play the ball ... not the player" ... all tirribly, tirribly British and all that rot, don’t you know!

PS Not forgetting the prime Forum no-no ... please chaps ... don’t try to SELL!!!


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#1180016 - 04/14/09 05:29 AM Re: reading music [Re: Chromatickeys]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
James, I've seen that book, it is available, but I have not read it.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1180034 - 04/14/09 06:50 AM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Chromatickeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Georgia USA
The book id number is ISBN:0-385-14263-3

It is very enlightning.

James

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#1180039 - 04/14/09 06:59 AM Re: reading music [Re: Chromatickeys]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1180064 - 04/14/09 08:24 AM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: keystring
Jeff, this morning you launched a question which was inspired by the musical excerpt I presented before ... the whole post


Thanks, keystring, for sharing that. We have very similar piano experience (adult self-taught). Because of sheer determination, I have at one stage managed to play Chopin's Nocturn Op.9 No.2. fluently. To play such a piece, I had the same experience as you ... that I needed to anticipate. That I did by analyzing the structure of the music. Very much like a modern pop song: verse 1, verse 2, chorus, verse 3, verse 4, chorus, outro, etc.

It has been some time since I last played it. If I do it now, I will also study its Key and chords, because I am more knowledgeable now than before in this area.

That is not to say that I don't appreciate the road signs that you are watching out for. I am sure they have helped you a lot.

But please don't take the following as a defensive stance:

Those pointers also exist in the Hao Staff. I have no advanced players brought up with the Hao Staff to substantiate that. But logically, there should be. Take a look at the Hanon piece I posted above. You immediately get the big clue: parallel, minor 3rd. You then just need to know where to start and where to finish.

Some of the clues/signs are best "seen" on the keyboard itself, when you practice it for the first few times. You remember which keys (notes) are the landmark notes. That you can see from the Hao Staff, if you are used to it.

Mind you, the sharps and flats do not disappear in the Hao Staff. They become black (grey) pitch stripes, just like how they will look on the keyboard. You can still analyze and understand the music structure before you get down to play it, which I think is a great discipline to have.

Also, you see road signs because it comes with your build-up of music theory (e.g. you know the difference between major and minor Keys). That should happen with the Hao Staff, too, because it has major/minor key signatures where ever necessary. E.g. 1=F, 6=D, etc. It is also set against a Grand Staff grid (note that the Grand Staff lines are not just for decoration. They point at the correct pitch stripe). It is a good tool to introduce people to the concept of the Grand Staff.

But I need to qualify myself again: nothing replaces interest, attitude, teacher's instruction, music theory, and practice. A lot of your "sign-reading capabilities" come from those, rather than the signs themselves. Different people will be looking out for different signs. I think you would agree with that.

Cheers,
Jeff
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#1180090 - 04/14/09 09:14 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Jeff,

I have to disagree with you in that in my opinion the "grammar" (or what you are calling roadsigns) is not completely there in the Hao Staff.

For example, there is no way that I can tell to determine from the Hao Staff that you are playing minor thirds vs augmented seconds. The keys you press on a piano are the same, but the musical purpose or meaning is different.

I can describe an example of how a piece might modulate and explain why it is clearer in standard notation. (Unfortunately, I do not have an example of a piece that performs this modulation. Maybe Chris or someone else can provide us with an example.)

Take a piece that is written in 7 sharps (C# major). A couple of measures start showing music with F double sharp. What has happened is that the music has modulated into the (admittedly artificial if you only consider keys with up to seven sharps) key of G# Major. After a couple of measures with the accidentals written out, the composer changes to the enharmonic key of Ab Major. Have you really changed keys with this last step? - not really, the composer has made it clear what he has done and then notated it in a more convenient key for the player.

My point with the above is that keeping the correct letter name for each note tell you important information about the key that you are currently in and what notes you should be anticipating. When everything is written chromatically, these tonal harmony clues are missing. It's like communicating with someone who is not using correct grammar. They can be understood, and sometimes it takes a lot of thought and translation, but some of the meaning and ease of understanding can be lost on a fluent speaker.

Rich


Edited by DragonPianoPlayer (04/14/09 09:19 AM)
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#1180094 - 04/14/09 09:20 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11810
Loc: Canada
Hi Jeff,
I have no interest in converting you, but I would like to plant a seed for a concept that might serve you (or others) at another time. It took me time to catch on to this myself. I did read the story of your journey and understand your present position. You do have a musical system, and those wishing to use it will have to learn to use it like any other system. Please do take the time to try to understand the concepts that I'm about to present, just so you know OF them. It's partly abstract in terms of how we learn. I'm a student and I'm also a trained teacher who has looked at various ways of learning: music learning interests me keenly.

Music study can appear to have the purpose of learning to produce a particular piece of music. Your goal becomes that of playing this or that piece. In this case you are working toward that goal in everything you do. If skills are needed, such as a certain touch to bring out a sound, or an ideal hand configuration, these will start coming to you to some degree, because the sound won't be right unless the shape is right. You'll keep wiggling and jiggling your way into something that is better. You will also start absorbing some of the patterns that exist in music. A couple of years after playing, if you start studying music theory, a lot of things will be familiar, and you'll say, "Wow - so that's what I've been doing!"

This is one approach to learning to play. It is common. Even when learning with a teacher, a "pieces-oriented" approach is often used, and they sneak in the theory and technique, because they know this is often our orientation. These are the things that are the most obvious to us, and we're the most likely to accept.

There is a second approach which presents a radical shift in thinking. In this approach you are getting at the physical skills and the essences of music (theory in a broad sense). It would seem that you are delaying things, but you are actually speeding things up. It's like Alice in the Looking Glass, where she keeps walking to the house and keeps finding the house far away. She is told to walk away from the house in order to reach the house - she finally does so and almost crashes into the front door. It is hard to accept such a premise.

I have tried to illustrate some principles through a concrete example, just as a door opener. I have learned to understand key signatures and the nature of major and minor scales. It is not a case of memorizing flats and sharps: it involves understanding those patterns, the intervals, the sense behind them. The understanding is physical as well as mental. You play a scale, you play chords, you go along the circle of fifths. You do a myriad of things that seem unrelated to the piece that you want to play. But all the time you are absorbing the underlying structures of music.

We have both written about anticipation. The goal, as you practise this way, is not anticipation. The goal, mentally, is no longer the piece in the manner you hear it. The ability to anticipate is the RESULT of these seemingly unrelated things you have done. This concept is elusive and hard to grasp. That is what I meant by Alice in the Look Glass who walks away from the house in order to get into the house.

Last year I did not set the goal of being able to sight read well. That is, yes, that was the ultimate goal. But in actually practising, my purpose shifted to such things as being able to glance at the music and anticipate its direction through the theoretical (experienced and studied) knowledge I had. I played chords in circles of fifths and wrote them out, and that exercise allowed me to anticipate what the music would do. It would take too long to list the various simple goals that I practised toward but perhaps you will get the idea.

You have invested yourself heavily into your system. It is unlikely that you will let go of that and thus not be able to reap the rewards of your labour (you can play music using this system, and would have to start from scratch without it).

The thing is that what I have described is part of the structure of the common Western music. both the keyboard and the notation system were designed for that music and they go hand in hand. If a student uses your system they will not be able to predict music at a glance as I am able to do, because the signposts are no longer there. Music teachers who have spent years studying this system, and decades teaching it, know its power. They are not being elitist or close-minded when they urge caution or are even alarmed. They know what is not there.

Are you able to see that perspective? Your system is geared toward the goal that wants to play the music right away. The immediate result is faster. But will it prevent absorbing the structures of music itself (how it is composed), so that ultimately tools are missing and in the long run we are slowed down? That is the place where concern would lie. It might be helpful to gain the perspective of experienced musicians both so you know where they are coming from, and in case there is something that you yourself can use. I find it heartening that some of the teachers have taken the time to seriously consider the chromatic approach both of yourself, and the gentleman who created a keyboard to that end.

Fwiw, as a violin student I work in half steps and whole steps by measuring them out in finger-thicknesses along an unmarked length of wire. A finger width gives a semitone, and just to make things interesting, the higher you go, the smaller the width becomes proportionally. One can conceivably play music without ever knowing the notes simply by keeping those proportions right. (Which is how it came to be that it took 3 years to discover I wasn't really reading music in any normal manner.)

It's been interesting!

KS

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#1180096 - 04/14/09 09:30 AM Re: reading music [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11810
Loc: Canada
Dragonpianoplayer, would the piece that I posted as a link on this page help serve your purpose? I haven't actually studied it: It was part of my prima vista reading recently.

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#1180119 - 04/14/09 10:00 AM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Keystring,

Yes and no. Yes, in that to some degree any example of modulation would work. We are both trying to say the same concepts in different ways. No, in that I am thinking of a very specific example I remember seeing recently that is an almost over the top example of modulation.

Rich
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#1180135 - 04/14/09 10:36 AM Re: reading music [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11810
Loc: Canada
duplicate post - can't delete - see next one.


Edited by keystring (04/14/09 10:37 AM)

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#1180172 - 04/14/09 11:35 AM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
THANK YOU ! Thank you both, KS and Rich.

I read your explanation carefully. I can only say that I vaguely sense what you are trying to explain to me. I have absolutely no doubt that what you say is true. My study of music is only so much, and I have to learn/develop more to be able to fully comprehend that. My mind is open. The seed is planted.

KS,

Your description about the 2 approaches (including the approach for which the Hao Staff serves) is great. You have described the "Hao Staff approach" better than I do. I appreciate the limitations that you point out, although I am still not sure, overall speaking and in the long run, which approach is better. I am saying this because one approach has an "industry-supported" student body, while the other one doesn't. So we can't compare them on a common basis based on student data.

I am ready to accept the expert's opinion like the ones you gave. But one variable that needs to be taken into account in judging about the system is the size of the population it serves. Only % of people can reach the "nirvana". I hope you can see the risk that many people drop out because it takes quite a long time and hard work (like going to a music conservatory, though not all have to go) to be able to taste the fruit with the traditional approach.

I am sure you know the Suzuki method. Would you agree that the Hao Staff is a good step towards a workable compromise between the Suzuki method and the traditional method (applicable to learning keyboard only)?
_________________________
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Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

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Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
... make it one of your FREE online resources

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#1180194 - 04/14/09 12:07 PM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17809
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I think this has been a thought-provoking thread, for the most part. Jeff, you and btb are tilting at windmills, as I'm sure you must realize at some level. You are in the same position as the inventor of the Dvorak keyboard and facing the same doom: The QWERTY keyboard, despite its flaws and illogical layout, is simply too entrenched to be replaced. The grand staff is not as flawed as the QWERTY keyboard, but it is just as entrenched, and probably more so. After all, the only impediment to using the Dvorak keyboard is retraining oneself to type with it--difficult, but doable. But to get others to adopt the Hao staff would require not only changing the hearts and minds of end users but also the publishers of sheet music, an even more insurmountable task.

However, I do appreciate your description of the Hao staff and the lively debate that has ensued. Having the courage to question whether traditional music notation can be improved helps us all to think about and understand the reasons why music is notated the way it is, and that is ultimately helpful to all of us... even if we remain mired in tradition. Thank you for sparking this conversation. smile
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1180234 - 04/14/09 01:04 PM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11810
Loc: Canada
Jeff, I am no expert, though I have an incredibly weird background that gives me a unique perspective. As soon as you set me up as an expert you create an "us" vs. "them" scenario. I was musically illiterate for 45 years. I did not know note names. I could find C. I acquired a piano less than 2 years ago. I learned to read music to the level you saw (that level is unnecessary - and reading through a score in that manner is also unnecessary) in 14 months. I began to study music theory less than 3 years ago.


I do not agree that it has to take years and years. I do believe that it is learned, taught, and studied in a bad way. Language literacy was also once considered a rare and wondrous thing that only a few people could attain. Music-wise we are living in the Dark Ages. Largely it's probably a matter of approach.

When you write "industry" approach, this is also misleading. That's not what it's about. It involves what works, and what works less well. I'm not part of any industry. I am an adult student who cannot afford lessons currently, trying to make do with what is available. I am neither an elite expert, nor a financial beneficiary.

Quote:
Would you agree that the Hao Staff is a good step towards a workable compromise between the Suzuki method and the traditional method.

Absolutely not, because of the approach of Suzuki itself. We should get the Suzuki teacher(s) on board for this one. The Suzuki method seeks to emulate the manner in which Sinjin Suzuki believes language is learned: hear, speak, read. A core premise is that a student should have a lot of exposure to music, be able to hear it, absorb its aspects, and be able to duplicate that music. When reading is delayed, it is done so deliberately, because reading would interfere with that process. The "Hao Staff" would interfere even more, since it does not even reflect the structure of music which the student is hearing. The other purpose of the Suzuki method is to begin with good physical technique. Since attention cannot go to two things at once, attention should be on what the body is doing and the sounds being produced, rather than decoding symbols.
Suzuki teachers?

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#1180235 - 04/14/09 01:07 PM Re: reading music [Re: Monica K.]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11810
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The QWERTY keyboard, despite its flaws and illogical layout, is simply too entrenched to be replaced.

An interesting aside about the QWERTY, which you might know, Monika, is that it was designed deliberately to be difficult. The first old mechanism could not cope with fleet fingers, so inventors placed the most used letters with the weakest fingers and hand. The music notation system, however, strove to be as efficient as possible.

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#1180242 - 04/14/09 01:19 PM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
The QWERTY keyboard, despite its flaws and illogical layout, is simply too entrenched to be replaced.

An interesting aside about the QWERTY, which you might know, Monika, is that it was designed deliberately to be difficult. The first old mechanism could not cope with fleet fingers, so inventors placed the most used letters with the weakest fingers and hand. The music notation system, however, strove to be as efficient as possible.


Sounds a bit like Music Theory. crazy

grin
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Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1180282 - 04/14/09 02:23 PM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
The QWERTY keyboard, despite its flaws and illogical layout, is simply too entrenched to be replaced.

An interesting aside about the QWERTY, which you might know, Monika, is that it was designed deliberately to be difficult.
My understanding was that it was designed to avoid often used keys from being too close and therefore jamming into each other.

But this I didn't know, from Wiki - 'Many more words can be spelled using only the left hand than the right hand. In fact, thousands of English words can be spelled using only the left hand, while only a couple of hundred words can be typed using only the right hand. This is helpful for left-handed people.'
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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1180294 - 04/14/09 02:41 PM Re: reading music [Re: keyboardklutz]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
.....

But this I didn't know, from Wiki - 'Many more words can be spelled using only the left hand than the right hand. In fact, thousands of English words can be spelled using only the left hand, while only a couple of hundred words can be typed using only the right hand. This is helpful for left-handed people.'


Hmmm, wonder if the same is true of the piano keyboard....
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1180326 - 04/14/09 04:07 PM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
enfrançais Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: keystring
inventors placed the most used letters with the weakest fingers and hand. The music notation system, however, strove to be as efficient as possible.


This would make sense with what keyboard klutz said about so many words being typed with the left hand. I don't see a reason why this would be necessary for a piano keyboard. But, if you think about it, do more compositions involve lower notes, hence the use of the left hand? Are harmonies, often played with the left hand more 'verbose' than melodies? I don't have enough experience in music to answer these questions, apparently I created a monster when I posted this thread.
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#1180328 - 04/14/09 04:11 PM Re: reading music [Re: enfrançais]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17809
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Hey, enfrancais!!! Good to see you back in this thread again. smile Don't mind the bickering; the internet is one big dysfunctional family and PW is no exception.

My typing analogy was an analogy, only; I wasn't intending to imply that a single process drove both the design of the grand staff and the typewriter keyboard. But I do think it's a useful analogy as a way of showing that sometimes things evolve through history in a form that we wouldn't necessarily adopt today if we designed it from scratch.
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1180341 - 04/14/09 04:22 PM Re: reading music [Re: Monica K.]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Yeah, enfrancais, I was afraid we'd run you completely off.

Apologies for "warping" your thread so far off topic, though it was good discussion I think.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1180406 - 04/14/09 06:24 PM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
To build on another tangential topic mentioned in recent posts, do you guys really feel that handedness is a factor in either piano or typing? I've never thought so, but I'd be interested in the opinions and experiences of others (and in evidence, too, to extent available).

And how would piano compare in this regard to other instruments where each hand actually does a different task with a different function, like, for example, guitar, violin, accordion, etc.?

Steven
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Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
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#1180411 - 04/14/09 06:29 PM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Chromatickeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Georgia USA
For my part in hijacking your original question, my apologies

You state, "apparently I created a monster"

I think you only shed some light on a full grown monster that hides about in the shadow of pianos and attacks unsuspecting piano students.

Are you French? Your words seem completely structured in English.

And have you gotten anything from the posts?

James

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#1180451 - 04/14/09 07:47 PM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: keystring
Jeff, I am no expert, though I have an incredibly weird background that gives me a unique perspective. As soon as you set me up as an expert you create an "us" vs. "them" scenario. I was musically illiterate for 45 years. I did not know note names. I could find C. I acquired a piano less than 2 years ago. I learned to read music to the level you saw (that level is unnecessary - and reading through a score in that manner is also unnecessary) in 14 months. I began to study music theory less than 3 years ago.

I do not agree that it has to take years and years. I do believe that it is learned, taught, and studied in a bad way. Language literacy was also once considered a rare and wondrous thing that only a few people could attain. Music-wise we are living in the Dark Ages. Largely it's probably a matter of approach.

When you write "industry" approach, this is also misleading. That's not what it's about. It involves what works, and what works less well. I'm not part of any industry. I am an adult student who cannot afford lessons currently, trying to make do with what is available. I am neither an elite expert, nor a financial beneficiary.


Hi, KS. Thanks for the clarification of above issues. I think you are right. An approach is an approach. I should not have coloured it.

I think I should not take on the responsibility to talk about the differences between the 3 approaches, with Suzuki added to "piece-oriented" and "Alice-in-wonderland". People may have more to nominate.

I hope all would understand that I simply packaged a system that leans towards the "piece-oriented approach" which existed before me. So the system may manifest some limitations that approach has. On the other hand, my system also has its merits, which I will not repeat here because some of you have acknowledged that in different places, implied or overtly. I am pleased with that.

Would it be fair to say that my system may serve all the 3 appoaches in a limited way, i.e. in certain manner for certain people at a certain stage? Guidance from teachers is recommended to make sure that one only takes advantage of it based on his/her own situation.

It is a bit like ... a medicine can be bad if not used properly (under the doctor's advice). But it would be too critical if we say the medicine is bad for that reason. I am dramatising it. But it is an analogy :-). I would take it as a compliment if your answer was ... we are afraid that your medicine should be banned like the drugs.

I acknowledge the lack of doctors who are willing to prescribe this medicine. For that I have to do my marketing. Even pharmaceuticals need marketing. I hope people here (many of you are doctors) don't take marketing as a dirty word.

Thanks. I am eager to share my work as well as to learn more. I have achieve both beyond my expectation.

Best regards,
Jeff


Edited by Jeff Hao (04/14/09 09:54 PM)
_________________________
*****
Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

http://haostaff.com - FREE sheets download (Grand and Hao Staff)

Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
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#1180488 - 04/14/09 09:08 PM Re: reading music [Re: sotto voce]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17809
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
To build on another tangential topic mentioned in recent posts, do you guys really feel that handedness is a factor in either piano or typing? I've never thought so, but I'd be interested in the opinions and experiences of others (and in evidence, too, to extent available).

And how would piano compare in this regard to other instruments where each hand actually does a different task with a different function, like, for example, guitar, violin, accordion, etc.?

Steven


Interesting questions. My own anecdotal experience is that I am continually struggling with not playing the left hand too loudly (and I am left-handed).
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1180523 - 04/14/09 10:12 PM Re: reading music [Re: Monica K.]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
... But to get others to adopt the Hao staff would require not only changing the hearts and minds of end users but also the publishers of sheet music, an even more insurmountable task ...


Thanks, Monica. Your remarks before and after the above quoted part ... they make me feel ... welcome ... great.

For your quoted remarks, it cannot be truer. That's why I do not treat this as a business project in my heart. Although it is taking a business look, the odds are against it.

That's why I am my own publisher now. First via internet, and then physical sheet music books and fakebooks.

I am going to take it slow, one step at a time. I just want to look back, when looking back is the only thing to do at a certain point of our life, and see what I have managed. It may be just some deserted ruins. Or, the seed may become a sprout, or even develop a root, and if miracles do happen, perhaps some leaves and fruits!

Wish me luck. I need a lot of that, I know.

Jeff
_________________________
*****
Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

http://haostaff.com - FREE sheets download (Grand and Hao Staff)

Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
... make it one of your FREE online resources

http://facebook.com/haostaffpiano

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#1180614 - 04/15/09 01:58 AM Re: reading music [Re: keystring]
buck2202 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: keystring
An interesting aside about the QWERTY, which you might know, Monika, is that it was designed deliberately to be difficult. The first old mechanism could not cope with fleet fingers, so inventors placed the most used letters with the weakest fingers and hand. The music notation system, however, strove to be as efficient as possible.


I've been out of this conversation for a while, so I thought I'd pop back in to talk about typewriters cool

keyboardklutz is right that the QWERTY layout is designed to move commonly used letters away from each other. The design was intended to speed up typing by minimizing the occurrence of mechanism jams that occurred when nearby letters were struck in quick succession (which the typist would have to manually fix). The intent wasn't to slow the typist down...rather it was to allow typists to go more quickly given the limits of the mechanical typewriter. A Dvorak layout on a mechanical typewriter from the late 19th century would probably jam all the time, just as the two-row, alphabetically ordered keyboards at the time did.

Of course all of this is irrelevant now (both to this discussion, and to computer keyboards), but the most highly publicized studies about the superiority of the Dvorak layout are dubious. Keyboard layout probably has very little to do with typing speed (good typists on QWERTY tend to be good typists on Dvorak and vise versa), and given enough training, a person can probably adapt to any layout.

What's the moral of the story? I dunno. Given adequate training, it's just as easy to learn to read the grand staff as it is the Hao staff (at speed)? You should consider the long-term benefits of a given system (QWERTY keyboards are everywhere, and the grand staff is everywhere [as well as the theoretical benefits])?

Yeah, I dunno. Back to your regularly scheduled program.. smile

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#1180619 - 04/15/09 02:04 AM Re: reading music [Re: buck2202]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Ah..., nothing like my early morning stroll through 'reading music'.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1180633 - 04/15/09 03:06 AM Re: reading music [Re: keyboardklutz]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Mr Hao continues to sell his chromatic stave snake-oil ... and to date can only offer the sample of an all too obvious (but more difficult to read) chromatic run of 24 minor thirds ... but little realizing that the chief stumbling block to reading music is the complicated format of the neumes which illogically grow more complex ... the SMALLER THE DURATION.

Solve this anomaly ... as with the 10th measure from Beethoven’s Pathetique Sonata ... and come up with a Spartan compact image ... and the company might see the persistent bleat as something more than a mere tinkering with a universal notation.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/pathetiquem10.JPG

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#1180636 - 04/15/09 03:15 AM Re: reading music [Re: btb]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2919
Loc: UK.
OMG....

Rhythm!

Don't say I didn't warn you.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#1180672 - 04/15/09 06:01 AM Re: reading music [Re: btb]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: btb
Mr Hao continues to sell his chromatic stave snake-oil ... and to date can only offer the sample of an all too obvious (but more difficult to read) chromatic run of 24 minor thirds ... but little realizing that the chief stumbling block to reading music is the complicated format of the neumes which illogically grow more complex ... the SMALLER THE DURATION.

Solve this anomaly ... as with the 10th measure from Beethoven’s Pathetique Sonata ... and come up with a Spartan compact image ... and the company might see the persistent bleat as something more than a mere tinkering with a universal notation.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/pathetiquem10.JPG



Hi, btb. If my memory serves me right, you should share the same passion with keyboardklutz about making the rhythm notation easier.

Guess we are working on different axis (how do you spell the plural form of this?)

I agree you are working on something meaningful. But that does not mean that I am working on something not meaningful, or less meaningful. How do you measure the meaningfulness of solving these two problems?

Anyway, if you have a solution for the horizontal problem, I'd be happy to adopt it into the Hao Staff with your permission.

I am sure you have talked about it somewhere on this Forum. Could you point me to it?

Jeff

P.S. Although I have just started the journey, I already have many many famous piano pieces transcribed onto the Hao Staff and offered on my webstore, and I have built up a small clientele with favourable feedback. I am clarifying this because your "... can only offer to date ..." remark is misleading information.
_________________________
*****
Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

http://haostaff.com - FREE sheets download (Grand and Hao Staff)

Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
... make it one of your FREE online resources

http://facebook.com/haostaffpiano

Top
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