Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 16 < 1 2 3 4 ... 15 16 >
Topic Options
#1174705 - 04/05/09 02:50 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Jeff Hao

But back to Thorium's "misconception" (I deliberately provoked, please count on the good spirit behind it), you said that the key signatures (made up of sharps and flats) and the accidentals (sharps and flats and cancellations) have some sort of unique function (e.g. stressing certain notes to be played in different way) ... I cannot repeat your comments word by word.

This is not true. Sharps and flats only exist because the five-lined staff (the lines and spaces) only provide proper seats for the white keys (i.e. the scale notes in the C major and A minor Keys). All the black keys must "sit on the arm-rest", and, therefore, they can only be identified in relation to their adjacent white keys. A# simple means "black to the right of A", Ab simple means "black to the left of A".
No. A# is quite a recent and very different note from Bb which was actually called 'B' in old German (B being called H). If you're really going to re-invent the stave make a separate place for A# and Bb, as they should in all fairness be different pitches.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
(ads P/S)

Sauter Pianos

#1174707 - 04/05/09 03:06 AM Re: reading music [Re: keyboardklutz]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
No. A# is quite a recent and very different note from Bb which was actually called 'B' in old German (B being called H). If you're really going to re-invent the stave make a separate place for A# and Bb, as they should in all fairness be different pitches.


Now you are confusing me keyboardklutz :-) !

MY A# and MY Bb both point to the ONE black key stuck between A and B. It's one note, but with "different names", thanks to the Grand Staff's design.

Now tell us more about what the Germans did.
_________________________
*****
Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

http://haostaff.com - FREE sheets download (Grand and Hao Staff)

Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
... make it one of your FREE online resources

http://facebook.com/haostaffpiano

Top
#1174710 - 04/05/09 03:22 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Quote:
While a staff of five lines was adopted in France for vocal music, one of six lines was used in Italy and, as the example illustrates, in the Reading Abbey manuscript in which the Reading rota (entitled Sumer Is Icumen In) appears. Instrumental music employed staves of varying numbers of lines until the sixteenth century when the five-line staff became the standard. Accidental notation derives from variations of the letter B, particularly, the sharp and natural from the square B quadratum, and the flat from the B rotundum. In the earliest European music notation, 4-line staff Gregorian chant manuscripts, only B needed to be altered. It could be flattened, so altering from its position in the hexachordum durum ('hard hexachord' - hard because of the 'hard b': G-A-B-C-D-E) where it is natural, to that in the hexachordum molle ('soft hexachord' - soft because of the 'soft b': F-G-A-Bb-C-D) where it is flat. B is absent from the third hexachord, hexachordum naturale ('natural hexachord' - natural because it is neither hard nor soft: C-D-E-F-G-A).

This use of B as the only altered note explains some modern notational peculiarities. The flat sign actually derives from a round B (b), to signify the B of the soft hexachord, that is B flat (hence the name of the flat sign in French bémol from medieval French bé mol — modern French bé mou — or 'soft b') and originally meant only the altered B, Bb. The natural sign derives from a square B (), to indicate the B of the 'hard hexachord', that is, B natural (hence the name of the natural sign in French bécarre from medieval French bé carre, earlier bé quarre — modern French bé carré — or 'square b') and originally meant only the unaltered B, B natural. For the same reason, in the German notation the letter B only designates the B flat while the letter H, which is actually a deformation of a square B designates the B natural. As polyphonic harmony developed more alterations were required. The first sharp in use was F#, then came the second flat Eb, then C#, as so on. By the sixteenth century Bb, Eb, Db, Ab, Gb and F#, C#, G#, D# and A# were all in use.
from Dolmetsch online: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory2.htm#origin
Though I do also read books (and have a B. Mus.). B and Bb do not so much indicate different keys but different feelings. The desire to bring everything down to some mechanical level just shoves the actual object, music, further from our grasp.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1174711 - 04/05/09 03:35 AM Re: reading music [Re: Morodiene]
Jeff Hao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Perhaps there is something to the deciphering of code in written music as it is, just like reading literature that actually makes you think about it. There is an art in itself to both of these, and something which makes the process of learning it that much more meaningful to the person who puts forth the effort.


Although I am just quoting this one paragraph to respond, please read Morodiene's entire post upstairs. I concur and feel for the points made.

Believe me for one thing, if one is going to invent a new staff, he had better understand and appreciate the old staff very well for his new invention to be any good.

I fully appareciate the Grand Staff's merits, aesthetics, elegance, popularity (by legacy), and the unchallengeable status as the "industry standard".

But I ask myself the following questions:

- If I have limited time, do I want to use it on practising playing music with an easier-to-read sheet music? Or do I want to spend more of it on training to read (deciphering) the more difficult Grand Staff for the tradition and beauty of it (and as a result progress slower on playing ability)?

- If I really cannot read Grand Staff fast enough (even if I have tried my best), do I give up playing the piano? Or do I check out other shortcuts, e.g. the Suzuki method (no scores at all, teaching by showing), or the Hao Staff (somewhere between Suzuki and Grand Staff)?

I guess different people will give different answers and there is no right or wrong. It's the student's choice.

I hope to offer a workable choice to those who might have simply given up. God knows how many of them have existed in the past and still exist today and tommorrow.

Jeff
_________________________
*****
Translating piano music into the "adult-friendly" Hao Staff

http://haostaff.com - FREE sheets download (Grand and Hao Staff)

Over 100 most well-known pieces of all genres, and growing fast
... make it one of your FREE online resources

http://facebook.com/haostaffpiano

Top
#1174715 - 04/05/09 04:18 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
If you'd been around a few years you'd know that in my opinion 'the Grand Staff' is just some crazy hoax concocted by piano teachers. It is actually treble (what the French called violin) clef plus bass. Much of 18th century keyboard music used soprano+bass instead.

As for new notations, yours is merely Klavarskribo sideways. So why not go with the original? It may even be out of copyright.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1174720 - 04/05/09 04:56 AM Re: reading music [Re: Jeff Hao]
Thorium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Jeff Hao
Let me first say a big fresh good Sunday morning to you guys over the ocean.


Good morning! I'm sorry I attacked you, justified or not. I should know better than to be combative on a public forum. My passion gets the better of me sometimes, and I apologize. You can blame my viking ancestry. =)

Originally Posted By: Jeff Hao
You said that the key signatures (made up of sharps and flats) and the accidentals (sharps and flats and cancellations) have some sort of unique function.


Well, I agree that on the face of it key signatures and accidentals are strictly notational devices. However, I think an argument can be established for why they also convey meaning musically.

While the key signature of the piece and the key of the piece aren't necessarily equivalent, they often are. If a piece modulates to different keys mid-piece, I guess notational practices vary. However, I've seen scores where another key signature has been inserted at the point of modulation. I still think a short departure from the currrent key, say, a single note, _often_ is musically significant, regardless of the notation. And in the majority of cases you would be able to identify this rogue note, as well as a piece's key and modulations, by flat/sharp/natural symbols.

I'm not sure I subscribe to the musical mysticism of a key's inherent emotional content, other than cases where the tonality is different, such as major vs. minor keys, but I know some do. If a composer chose E-major over C-major, he might have a subtler, non-pragmatic reason for doing so.

I don't think the Grand Staff is consummate perfection. The analogy to natural languages is a good one. I applaud you for challenging the bastion of tradition. My profession (physics) also suffers from some adherence to conventional truths and past results, and the greatest breakthroughs are generally those which fly in the face of established wisdom and change our way of thinking more fundamentally.

The question is whether it is necessary at this point to adopt a new system of notation, not to mention practicable. Is it really that hard to learn? I'm not convinced it is. Mastering an instrument is a huge commitment, and in the greater scheme of things, learning how to read music is a trifling formality, one that once assimilated becomes second nature. And is the alternative so much easier to learn, while remaining as flexible?

As a side note, in a logical and ideal system of notation, I don't think an octave should consist of twelve equally spaced lines. I'd rather have a system where the distance between the notes on paper is proportional to the distance in pitch, so that the sheet essentially becomes a graphical representation of a function of absolute pitch and time.

I think I'll stop rambling now.
Thor
_________________________
Working on:
F�r Elise (all of it, ugh)
Prelude in C, BWV 846
Michael Nyman - The Heart Asks Pleasure First (great finger exercise!)

Top
#1174745 - 04/05/09 06:41 AM Re: reading music [Re: Thorium]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Thorium
...

As a side note, in a logical and ideal system of notation, I don't think an octave should consist of twelve equally spaced lines. I'd rather have a system where the distance between the notes on paper is proportional to the distance in pitch, so that the sheet essentially becomes a graphical representation of a function of absolute pitch and time.

I think I'll stop rambling now.
Thor





Interesting. I've been thinking a bit along the same lines of how illogical the notation system is with non-equally spaced notes and all the accidentals and keys and .....I meant it seems to me there's got to be a better way that is way simpler and less confusing.



Edited by kennychaffin (04/05/09 06:42 AM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174747 - 04/05/09 06:51 AM Re: reading music [Re: Thorium]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5563
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Actually, before equal temperament was invented (and I think it was theoretically proposed before it was practicable), the different "keys signatures" actually sounded different. Most of us these days expect that the interval of a semi-tone will sound the same, relatively, whether it's between C and C# or A and Bb. But until the late 1600s and early 1700s that was not so. So the major thirds might be larger or smaller than today, and so with the minor thirds, and the fifths might or might not be the same. So if your keyboard was tuned in such a way that it sounded pretty good if your tonality was centered or grounded on C, it would probably start sounding pretty strange around the key of A, because the intervals in the key of A would be shifted, and transposing from the key of C would result in a different piece. And, as kbk pointed out, A# and Bb might be different pitches, as often G# and Ab were.

It won't be hard for Thor to figure out what the problem is, since he has some background in the harmonic series. In equal temperament the ratio of each pitch's frequency to the adjacent one is always the same. The ratio of the frequency of C to C# is the same as the ratio of the frequency of the pitches for G to G#, and all along the way.

But what one's ear originally hears (and we have been trained out of it) are the harmonics of a pitch, and another pitch which matches those harmonics, or matches the strong ones, sounds "in tune." That's why octaves are so obviously in tune - if one of them vibrates at a frequency of 1 time per second, its harmonics vibrate at 2-, 3-, 4-, etc per second. The octave starts at 2-per second, and vibrates at 4-, 8-, 16-, etc, all of which are also part of the original pitch's harmonics. Voila! It sounds in tune! Enough so that we even name them the same name - they're all C's, or D's, or A's or whatever.

The "fifth" also sounds strongly "in tune", because it occurs in every octave sequence of the harmonics after the first. In the harmonics, the first pitch, at 1-per second, might be C, the next pitch, at 2-per second, would also be C but an octave higher, and, as it turns out, the next pitch, at 3-per second, is G, the "fifth" of the scale. So the ratio of the pitch of G to the pitch of C is 3/2. And in every octave after that there is a 3/2 ratio - 6/4, 12/8, etc. So the fifth sounds really good, too smile

Since the fifth sounds so good, it's tempting to then make a set of pitches (a scale) in which all the fifths have the ratio of 3/2 - G to C would be 3/2, A to D would be 3/2, B to E would be 3/2, C to F, and so on. Since they sound so good, one could, with practice, set these pitches by ear, so away one goes - tuning up from C to G might be fairly easy, and then one could tune to the lower G (because that's an octave, and would be easy), and then tune the D's from there because one could hear it, and go merrily on one's way until all the pitches have been filled in. Except it doesn't work smile One cannot make a scale of pitches in which all of the fifths are 3/2 and *also* have the octave come out at 2/1.

Once I sat down and did the math of what the frequencies would be if I tried to actually tune the way I proposed, it became obvious that all the numerators of the ratios of the pitches are 3 and all the denominators are 2, and I would never get a pitch would could be reduced, mathematically, to 2/1.

So, what practical musicians did was to tune all the octaves to 2/1, and adjust, or temper, the intervals in between, to make them fit within the octave. And, until the late 1600's and early 1700's, they did *not* make the intervals equal. They would make an artistic decision as to what they wanted their 5ths, or 3rds, or 2nds, to sound like. But it meant that if they played starting on a different pitch the sequence of intervals shifted, so transposing could be problematic. But it could also be taken advantage of - hence, you might compose a piece deliberately for a particular sequence of intervals in order to evoke different emotions.

Whew! I've probably made a couple of bobbles in writing this, because it's almost 5:00 AM here, which is definitely not prime time for me, but it'll get you started. The intricacies of temperament are fascinating, and musicians were pretty sophisticated from very early on. But some of the notation conventions, or anomalies as the case may be, spring directly from the sound itself, and the physics of it.

So Thor, I can ramble as much as you!

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#1174749 - 04/05/09 07:03 AM Re: reading music [Re: jotur]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: jotur
Actually, before equal temperament was invented (and I think it was theoretically proposed before it was practicable), the different "keys signatures" actually sounded different. .....

So Thor, I can ramble as much as you!

Cathy


Great summary of the history of music Cathy. smile

Matches pretty much what I've read as well. I've been somewhat serious about studying music theory for the past year or two.

I'm currently reading "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin which I'm finding quite fascinating so far (I'm only up to Ch 3). So far he is discussing basic music theory, scales, intervals, octaves etc and how the brain (and body) react and process music.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174752 - 04/05/09 07:20 AM Re: reading music [Re: Betty Patnude]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Carl Mc,

You were offering lunch? I'll put that in my "chips to collect on" notebook in case I'm ever in Colorado! How about that?

I'm glad you liked my quote....you keep working on the theory and the nimble fingers - it's actually the only way that I know you can get the knots out. Seeking and doing.

Morodiene, what say we do lunch with Carl sometime?

Best wishes!

Betty


Hey, I'm right here is Denver/Aurora we should have a Mountain Get Together when you make that trip to Colorado Betty. smile
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174756 - 04/05/09 07:23 AM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5563
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
laugh Kenny, altho it's sobering to have an idea of just how oversimplified what I put there really is. When I read stuff about real-life acoustics, and what happens when you have to take into account not only the properties of the actual strings on the instrument and other physical properties, but the ways that the human ear/brain actually deals with sound waves - well, it makes me really appreciate my tech laugh

Levitin's book is really good, huh. I just sort of wished I had a broader knowledge of popular music so I could have appreciated a lot of his examples more.

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#1174757 - 04/05/09 07:27 AM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Thorium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
I'm currently reading "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin which I'm finding quite fascinating so far (I'm only up to Ch 3). So far he is discussing basic music theory, scales, intervals, octaves etc and how the brain (and body) react and process music.


Great book! I have it too. The chapter on what makes a musician - genetics, age and environmental factors - is very interesting, if somewhat depressing.

Originally Posted By: jotur
before equal temperament was invented (and I think it was theoretically proposed before it was practicable), the different "keys signatures" actually sounded different.


I thought I'd leave the just intonation/equal temperament issues out of my post, since that's a whole other kettle of fish, but I suppose it's useful to keep in mind in the context of the historical development of our system of notation. Have you heard back-to-back comparisons of various historical temperaments? It's a "fun" exercise.

A few examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teVlrYJGKAE
_________________________
Working on:
F�r Elise (all of it, ugh)
Prelude in C, BWV 846
Michael Nyman - The Heart Asks Pleasure First (great finger exercise!)

Top
#1174760 - 04/05/09 07:32 AM Re: reading music [Re: buck2202]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: buck2202
.....

You might be interested to look at this link to see a variety of ways that people have tried to eliminate accidentals. ...


Buck just wanted to say thanks for that link. That'll consume a good part of my day I'm sure. Very interesting and intriguing.

BTW I think the Grand Staff and the reading of it resulted from centuries of work/change/adaptation/evolution and I suspect it is optimal and that is why we use it and will likely continue to, but the thing that comes to mind for me is that working scientific theories have at various points been totally replaced by new theories so certainly it's possible there may be a better way at some point that could revolutionize music theory.

As far as the Hao Staff, I think it's great for piano, but what about all the other instruments?
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174761 - 04/05/09 07:35 AM Re: reading music [Re: Thorium]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Thorium


Great book! I have it too. The chapter on what makes a musician - genetics, age and environmental factors - is very interesting, if somewhat depressing.
....


Yes, ten years - 10,000 hours of practice makes my fingers hurt.

smile

Of course (to be on-topic) I'm sure one would be able to read music well before that. grin
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174763 - 04/05/09 07:40 AM Re: reading music [Re: Thorium]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5563
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Oh, sorry Thorium - I thought when you said something about the musical mysticism of a key's inherent emotional content that you weren't aware that key signatures actually sounded quite different than they do today, even aside from major or minor. So I sort of over-responded laugh Unequal temperaments may not have inherent emotional content, but they're kind of vanilla today.

Yeah, it is fun to listen to historical temperaments. A friend of mine builds harpsichords and we used to play fiddle/harpsichords duets. He'd tune it in different temperaments and sometimes the music would just come alive in a particular temperament - 1/6 comma meant tone or something. He also had several cds in different temperaments. Thanks for the youtube link - I'll go have a listen.

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#1174764 - 04/05/09 07:47 AM Re: reading music [Re: jotur]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Seems much of this discussion is about music theory as opposed to the O.P's question about reading music. Perhaps there's a better place/thread to discuss this? Which by the way it totally fascinating to me. smile
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174765 - 04/05/09 07:58 AM Re: reading music [Re: jotur]
Thorium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: jotur
musical mysticism of a key's inherent emotional content


Heh, I was alluding to an article I read a few years ago about a musical theorist who ascribed very precise and elaborate emotional states to each key, rather like how modern sommeliers and eonologers describe wines in the most outlandish terms ("a faint hint of leather and peat, perhaps discarded on the moors, after centuries of being trampled by horses", etc). I wish I could find the article. It was funny.
_________________________
Working on:
F�r Elise (all of it, ugh)
Prelude in C, BWV 846
Michael Nyman - The Heart Asks Pleasure First (great finger exercise!)

Top
#1174779 - 04/05/09 09:07 AM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Chromatickeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Georgia USA
I would like to thank Mr HAO for introducing a dymanic to this thread that brought out much comment very useful to me. Some of the posters on this thread posted also on mine regarding the chromatic keyboard. If I could be so bold as to ask each of you (that did not earlier) to look at my comments and those of the other posters as it ties into the very heart of this thread.

That is, why is music so hard for so many. Most of us can whistle, hum, sing, drum, etc but with layer upon layer of evolved methodology, we find the piano so counterintuitive and daunting that it becomes (for a multitude of reasons) beyond our ability.

This very post has brought out a good amount of data regarding the fact that people now and before have worked to implement a simpler way. Surely for them as for us now, it is born of a love for the piano and the desire to see more people enjoying what we have found.

A slight update on my project. I have found a shop near that has a computer numerical controlled (cnc) router and I think I will be able to have a set of keys made that will clean up what I did so crudely to my experimental piano.

Please PM if there are other comment to me. I do not wish to hijack this thread. I have nothing to sell but am happy to discuss my project.

A genuine Thank You to all and especially to PW.

James McPherson

Top
#1174813 - 04/05/09 10:22 AM Re: reading music [Re: enfrançais]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
If you can take a piece of simple music and figure out how to play the song with nothing but that paper and the piano in front of you it doesn't matter how long it takes, if you had to write the letters next to the notes or even keep thinking "every good boy does fine" while you did it. If you play the song the way it should be and it was the piece of music that told you how fast, what notes, how long and when you should leave quiet space between the notes you've read the music. When someone asks if I can read music I tell them "Yes, but not very well."

Top
#1174833 - 04/05/09 11:00 AM Re: reading music [Re: jotur]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1839
Loc: USA
Wow! Did this thread evolve. I hope the Op did not run screaming into the night. Hopefully he is in for the pound.

As I see it- reading music is a means to the end. Understanding music is the tangent to the journey.

I do have a question. Why is it that as technology has evolved we are still seeing music written in black and white? Color could certainly be used in Jeff's proposal to indentify octaves. The brain processes color so much better and I suspect stores and recalls more efficiently in color - provided you are not color blind of course.


Quote:
Carl Mc,

You were offering lunch? I'll put that in my "chips to collect on" notebook in case I'm ever in Colorado! How about that?

I'm glad you liked my quote....you keep working on the theory and the nimble fingers - it's actually the only way that I know you can get the knots out. Seeking and doing.

Morodiene, what say we do lunch with Carl sometime?

Best wishes!

Betty


Absolutely! Lunch would be a small price to pay for a hour of conversation with you two.
Kennychaffin- I am still considering the pros and con smile
_________________________







Top
#1174879 - 04/05/09 01:15 PM Re: reading music [Re: Strings & Wood]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
With the grand staff as it is today:


L5_____________________
L4_____________________
L3________________________(3rd line is the "center" middle line)
L2_____________________
L1_____________________

It doesn't matter if the Middle Line is the Treble Clef or the Bass Clef, you can do this "trick" to find notes on the keyboard without having to assign them names.

Treble Clef Middle Line is the B above Middle C.
Put your thumgs shared on the B with one finger of each hand on a white key. Play fingers 5-3-1-3-5 starting with LH 5, and ascending to each next line from L1 to Line 5. You get EGBDF. Do the same thing from S1 to Space 4, Fingering 4-2-2-4 = FACE

In the base clef,the same exercise starting with Middle Line D can be repeated exactly, but the names will be (lines) GBDFA and the (spaces) ACEG.

If you go to Middle C, and do the same exercises, you will find (lines) FACEG/5-3-1-3-5) and GBDF (spaces).

By holding your fingers in position on the keyboard you can determine where the alternating notes on the keyboard are spaces and where there are lines. Remember a quick find with the thumbs on the 3 keyboard locations specified above.

You can't do this with the alternative staffs being proposed.

The playing out of the notes wants to be done from Left to Right.

I hope this makes sense from paper and ink descriptions, it would be fun to make a video tutorial of it. Would anyone be interested?

Betty

Top
#1174883 - 04/05/09 01:27 PM Re: reading music [Re: Betty Patnude]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Sorry Betty, I'm not making any sense of that. smile Or why it's important. I'm also thinking that maybe would not be necessary with an alternate staff/type of notation.

Maybe a video would help.


Edited by kennychaffin (04/05/09 01:29 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174958 - 04/05/09 03:36 PM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Chromatickeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Georgia USA
Carl Mc, Color is very much part of my keyboard and notation. C is red, D is orange, E is yellow, f sharp is green, g sharp is blue, a sharp is indigo, b sharp is violet. These are all BLACK keys and the corresponding written notes fall on lines. White spaces between the lines are for the white keys. Any tune once learned can be played on ANY whole tone variant of the original with IDENTICAL FINGERING.

There I go again and I must apologize for hijacking. I have GOT to post a picture.

James

Top
#1174964 - 04/05/09 03:43 PM Re: reading music [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
enfrançais Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
If you can take a piece of simple music and figure out how to play the song with nothing but that paper and the piano in front of you it doesn't matter how long it takes, if you had to write the letters next to the notes or even keep thinking "every good boy does fine" while you did it. If you play the song the way it should be and it was the piece of music that told you how fast, what notes, how long and when you should leave quiet space between the notes you've read the music. When someone asks if I can read music I tell them "Yes, but not very well."


Thank you for bringing this thread back to my level! Whew, I was getting worried. I might just steal your reply to that tricky question.
_________________________
"L'art est le plus beau des mensonges." -Debussy

Top
#1174966 - 04/05/09 03:44 PM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Kenny,

It's a thinking tool.

Fingers are placed on the keyboard with thumbs at a particular location, the middle line, then each finger touches a white key (I am not trying to account for accidentals, so we are using the white notes of the keyboard only.)

LH 5-3-1 (1's are shared thumbs on the middle line piano note) the RH (1)-3-5. All are lines of the staff. The LH 4-2 and RH 2-4 are the spaces. This is the relationship regardless of whether it's treble clef B (the middle line) or bass clef D (the middle line) or Middle C of the grand staff. There are only 3 locations you can refer to Middle Line. Do you see why we would call them middle line?

Hubby said it would be nice to have a digital video, not use our old model. I don't know a thing about posting a video, but this "lesson" would be a good one to start with.

By the way, do you use www.etheory.com where there are great trainers and explanations?

I have never seen anyone mention the center line approach that I am describing here. I may have missed it, but really, I've been looking for it in pedagogy and methods and theory, and over a long period of time. If you've seen it somewhere, I'd like to know where and who is the creator of the idea.

Cheers!

Betty

Top
#1174967 - 04/05/09 03:49 PM Re: reading music [Re: Betty Patnude]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Chromatic Keys,

I like the (Mr.) "Roy G. Biv" - Red/Orange/Yellow/Green/Blue/Indigo/Violet (rainbow colors), but I don't understand why you went from white notes to black notes, unless you are thinking in whole steps. Is that it?

I've got to get myself to the piano in order to test drive it.

Betty

Top
#1174974 - 04/05/09 04:02 PM Re: reading music [Re: Betty Patnude]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Kenny,

It's a thinking tool.

Fingers are placed on the keyboard with thumbs at a particular location, the middle line, then each finger touches a white key (I am not trying to account for accidentals, so we are using the white notes of the keyboard only.)

LH 5-3-1 (1's are shared thumbs on the middle line piano note) the RH (1)-3-5. All are lines of the staff. The LH 4-2 and RH 2-4 are the spaces. This is the relationship regardless of whether it's treble clef B (the middle line) or bass clef D (the middle line) or Middle C of the grand staff. There are only 3 locations you can refer to Middle Line. Do you see why we would call them middle line?

Hubby said it would be nice to have a digital video, not use our old model. I don't know a thing about posting a video, but this "lesson" would be a good one to start with.

By the way, do you use www.etheory.com where there are great trainers and explanations?

I have never seen anyone mention the center line approach that I am describing here. I may have missed it, but really, I've been looking for it in pedagogy and methods and theory, and over a long period of time. If you've seen it somewhere, I'd like to know where and who is the creator of the idea.

Cheers!

Betty


That helps my understanding. Thanks. I guess it's a way to correspond the keys to the lines/spaces (at least in the key of C), right?.

P.S. I'm not getting to a music website (just a holding page or something else) when I use that url you gave


Edited by kennychaffin (04/05/09 04:09 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1175012 - 04/05/09 04:57 PM Re: reading music [Re: kennychaffin]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
OH, I'll bet you meant http://www.emusictheory.com
right? Yeah, I've been there and it's even done in Java, my favorite programming language. smile
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1175132 - 04/05/09 08:50 PM Re: reading music [Re: Betty Patnude]
Scruffies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/09
Posts: 58
Loc: California
Betty.... I don't know if I understand the purpose of your middle line discussion, and it seems interesting, so I don't want to miss anything.

Isn't the initial problem reading music (just the note identification part) two fold for most of us beginners?

First step is to convert the note to a letter value from A to G, and then secondly to locate the specific key on the piano depending on where on the grand staff (inc. ledgers) the note is? I think, but am not sure, that your middle line idea is geared to helping someone associate a letter with a specific key on the piano... is that right?

As a very new beginner, Ive been using http://www.emusictheory.com/practice.html (best drill site on the web IMHO) the past couple of weeks to work on seeing a note and then hitting the correct piano keyboard key using a mouse. Sometimes I find my self thinking the letter value, sometimes not. At this point I can do the Piano Notes drill of about 100 notes (treble staff only, no accidentials) in about 200 seconds (using the mouse to click on the keyboard image) with perhaps 4-6 mistakes.

So would your middle line exercise apply to someone like me who usually sees the note in the treble cleff and then hits the right piano key?

/Scruffies

PS: I am just talking about note identification... nothing else.
_________________________
/Scruffies

Top
#1175140 - 04/05/09 09:06 PM Re: reading music [Re: enfrançais]
Scruffies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/09
Posts: 58
Loc: California
As I am working on learning to "read music"....

One of the things I find myself doing during the day is to just visualize a specific note on the staff and then identify it in my mind. So I "see" a note in the space just above the treble cleff, and think "G", and then see the next three notes, 1st ledger line, space, and 2nd ledger line, and think "A" and then "B" and then "C". It's amazing how just spending time "thinking" music notes helps one remember them.

For me, getting over the hurddle of "reading music" is huge and I have not started lessons because I am not sure how committed I really am to the task.

I think my Casio has 76 keys so there are 7 ledger lines above the treble staff. I am not sure how much of that I am going to bother with trying to memorize. And, very candidly, it's tempting to blow off the bass cleff completely following the "fake book" path which reduces the note reading and memorization in half!

Tempting...., since I can play by ear and have some comfort level with left hand chording. But.... reading music does open up all the thousands of pieces one could play IF they could but read it!
_________________________
/Scruffies

Top
Page 2 of 16 < 1 2 3 4 ... 15 16 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano lessons: every week or every two weeks?
by Pover
Today at 06:34 AM
Anything better than the Yamaha CLP-990 yet?
by pianelmo
Today at 04:49 AM
Is A443 banned definitively?
by Olek
Today at 04:01 AM
Ritmuller Grand Pianos - Help!
by Mike RSA
Today at 03:56 AM
J.D.Grandt Bass Strings Opinions Please
by chernobieff
Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Who's Online
91 registered (anotherscott, aesop, barbaram, 36251, ando, 28 invisible), 1263 Guests and 36 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76633 Members
42 Forums
158465 Topics
2327061 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission