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#1173864 - 04/03/09 02:20 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11582
Loc: Canada
Quote:
In what way specifically are they being limited?

Give me a day where, as a student, I have time to list them. We are trying to produce sound out of the multiple aspects the instrument has (if only it had them) - not be the recipient of a finished product (artificial mimicry). How does one respond to the movement of a hammer when there is none? How do you blend and mix the things emanating from strings, when there are no strings, and the sound is a predigested pretty glob coming out of a speaker? How can you develop your ear or your technique when there is nothing there to interact with....

But John ... not everyone who has a DP does so by choice, and some people cannot afford a good piano OR a car. Humanity 101 teaches that people who are not poor cry poverty. Humanity 102 says that doesn't mean poverty doesn't exist. Humanity 103 brushes the sand out of the avian's head feathers and says people are pretty hard to figure out. Humanity 104 says people should be paid what they are worth, equipment should be quality ... Hum105 says it's not always that simple. Cheers! smile
KS

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#1173868 - 04/03/09 02:30 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
In what way specifically are they being limited?

Give me a day where, as a student, I have time to list them. We are trying to produce sound out of the multiple aspects the instrument has (if only it had them) - not be the recipient of a finished product (artificial mimicry). How does one respond to the movement of a hammer when there is none? How do you blend and mix the things emanating from strings, when there are no strings, and the sound is a predigested pretty glob coming out of a speaker? How can you develop your ear or your technique when there is nothing there to interact with....
.....
KS


Hmmm, not sure I'm following this exactly, but I think you may not understand the intricate details of how a high end digital piano creates its output. The sounds can mix and blend and respond to the players touch on the keys, the physical keys simulate the hammer actions which is very tactile, the output is far from a predigested glob as you say it is created, mixed, adjusted in real time in an analogous way to what the acoustic instrument does. -- at least in the higher-end digital pianos. Now if you are speaking of keyboards and not digital pianos then I don't necessarily disagree with your statements but not with respect to a proper digital piano.



Edited by kennychaffin (04/03/09 03:40 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173869 - 04/03/09 02:34 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
You nicely sidestepped the major point of my post, which is a keyboard, no matter how sophisticated, is not a piano.

I cannot in good conscious call them pianos, as they are not pianos, any more than a high end digital recording system is an orchestra.

I'd call them electronic synthesizers, because that's what they basically are, but then the synthesizer community gets bent out of shape, because they use recorded sounds, ie digital 1s and 0s, as opposed to using digital 1s and 0s to synthesize a sound from scratch.

But they are not pianos. Period. Go ahead, pluck a string on your electronic. Play it when there's a power outage.

Quote:
You say you would like all your students to play on grand pianos? Why? What benefit would they get in the long run from it beyond what they would get from a proper Digital Piano?

In what way specifically are they being limited?


You mean, you really don't know?


Edited by John v.d.Brook (04/03/09 02:41 PM)
Edit Reason: added 1st paragraph
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1173871 - 04/03/09 02:36 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
keystring, are you saying that the only reason people choose electronic synthesizers, aka keyboards, because they are too poor to choose a piano?
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1173875 - 04/03/09 02:43 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Well, even as we speak, the Kawaii dealer in your city, Bellevue, is offering a huge sale on instruments seized in a bank foreclosure.
Hmm. What do you mean by "Kawai dealer"? Currently, the only Kawai dealer in the whole state is in Bremerton..
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1173878 - 04/03/09 02:51 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Trent Woods, NC
I believe that there are a couple of issues in the OP rather than simply one. One issue is the relative merits of electronic instruments versus traditional acoustic pianos. This issue has innumerable threads already posted, and is not likely to be resolved in the near future. It is also possible that the result may change in the future, as electronics are improved.

The other issue is to what extent a teacher should exercise control over the student's practice tool. One extreme is the teacher who flat out refuses to teach a student that does not have (or obtain) an acoustic piano, perhaps even a specific quality of acoustic piano. The other extreme is the teacher who works with each student in order to help the student develop, regardless of what device the student may use for practice. In the 19th century, it was rather common for many students to not even posses a piano, but to practice on a silent keyboard. I owned one of these for a period, I purchased it as an interesting antique.

I feel most comfortable with a teacher who discusses the relative merits honestly with the student; then works with the student's decision (which can be a result of many things - what type of musician the student wants to become, financial means, problems resulting from apartment living, etc.)

My instructor for the past 2.5 years is a VERY qualified teacher, a finalist decades ago on the Morehead Scholarship program in North Carolina who received training in Basil, Switzerland, and concertized in Europe for 20 years. He rents studio space from the local music store, which provides an abominable ancient Wurlitzer upright (and now a Yamaha digital). My own instruments are electronic (Kurzweil), because my main motivation is not only solo work but performing in an ensemble.

Said instructor is single, does not drive nor own an automobile, and lives in an apartment. He has begun to concertize again, and plans a trip back to Gibralter in the fall to set up a schedule of concerts. His final practice is being done on a Steinway at one of the local churches; but he now uses a higher end Yamaha digital in his apartment. He was convinced to purchase the instrument after a session of using my Kurzweil. His expression is that it allows him to do between 90 and 95% of his preparation at his convenience at home; and then do the last 5 to 10% of his preparation on the Steinway. Makes a lot of sense to me.

People just don't all fit in the same box. Between rehearsals and public appearances, the two ensembles of which I am member have me setting up and playing out two to three nights a week.

One thing I have noted (at least in this small town): Those teachers who are TOO particular (will ONLY teach the repetoire that they have done for xx years; or will ONLY teach those who possess an instrument that meets the teacher's standard) are much more likely to find themselves under- or un-employed.
_________________________
Jim Cason
Promised LAN Computing, Inc.
Howard C171 Grand, Kurzweil PC3X, PC3, PC361, PC2X, PC2.
JBL 10&15 EONG2s, EV SxA100+s QSC K10s, HP & ThinkPad DAWs, eMu 1820M & 1616M.
Epi Les Paul & LP 5str Bass, Trace amp-cabinets.
Formerly in electronic keyboard repair trade - semi-retired

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#1173882 - 04/03/09 02:56 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11582
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
keystring, are you saying that the only reason people choose electronic synthesizers, aka keyboards, because they are too poor to choose a piano?

John, Humanity 105 stated "It's not always that simple". My main argument was the same as yours - the role and importance of a decent acoustic piano, and why that was so.

ONE reason a person may be stuck with a DP is because of circumstances. I have a digital piano which I managed to purchase from someone I knew for $400. It was used for performances, and it has an impressive performance sound at a distance. That doesn't mean that it is ideal for learning to play the piano. It was affordable, and since I have neighbours on four sides there is a practical issue. If I had any way out, I would not be making do with the instrument I am playing.

No, I am not saying that is the only reason. It is one reason, and it is a very real one. People are in all kinds of circumstances. I am not being argumentative - to the contrary.

KS

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#1173883 - 04/03/09 02:58 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
You nicely sidestepped the major point of my post, which is a keyboard, no matter how sophisticated, is not a piano.

I cannot in good conscious call them pianos, as they are not pianos, any more than a high end digital recording system is an orchestra.

I'd call them electronic synthesizers, because that's what they basically are, but then the synthesizer community gets bent out of shape, because they use recorded sounds, ie digital 1s and 0s, as opposed to using digital 1s and 0s to synthesize a sound from scratch.

But they are not pianos. Period. Go ahead, pluck a string on your electronic. Play it when there's a power outage.

Quote:
You say you would like all your students to play on grand pianos? Why? What benefit would they get in the long run from it beyond what they would get from a proper Digital Piano?

In what way specifically are they being limited?


You mean, you really don't know?


Clearly you are confused or simply don't care to know. So my point about bias is well-founded.

It's certainly your own issue if you don't understand or refuse to understand. I can't help you with that John.

All I can do is lead you to the water, I can't make you drink. smile

Please humor me and enlighten me. I have no idea what limitations you are speaking of, you are the one that brought it up. Please detail what you think are limitations?



Edited by kennychaffin (04/03/09 03:02 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173886 - 04/03/09 03:03 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Well, even as we speak, the Kawaii dealer in your city, Bellevue, is offering a huge sale on instruments seized in a bank foreclosure.
Hmm. What do you mean by "Kawai dealer"? Currently, the only Kawai dealer in the whole state is in Bremerton..


Sorry, thinking of Washburn. According to the Kawaii web site, and the radio ads I'm hearing, try

Prosser Piano And Organ Company
13400 Interurban Avenue South
Tukwila, WA 98168
206-957-8732
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1173888 - 04/03/09 03:06 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Stanny Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 1461
To answer the OPs question, only one of my 29 students has a DP, the rest play on acoustic pianos. This is in my policy.
_________________________
~Stanny~

Independent Music Teacher
Certified Piano Teacher, American College of Musicians
Member: MTNA, NGPT, ASMTA, NAMTA

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#1173894 - 04/03/09 03:17 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
The OP asked:
Quote:
How many of your students have only a DP?


I didn't answer, but the answer is 1. It's mine and it's a loaner because the student couldn't afford anything other than lessons. It happens to be the identical keyboard the OP currently uses, and it's not bad. I've used it for a number of events, especially the harpsichord setting, concerts on the mall with students, etc. The student in question has potential, which is why I decided to lend out my keyboard, at no charge, BTW, rather than have her quit lessons due to lack of an instrument. The parents could probably afford a piano, but choose not to get one, for what ever reasons shall remain with them (they have chosen not to share this information).

But I do not delude myself into believing it's a piano. It is not. Now, the discussion as to what would need to be done to turn a keyboard into an instrument that would be close to indistinguishable from a piano has been fought long and hard in these forums. It would cost probably ten times that of the very finest pianos to make a comparable electronic keyboard.

The secondary issue, which has already been answered in the posts above, is that a piano's touch, feel, and response is quite different from that of keyboards. They are similar. Just as a harpsichord, organ, Celeste, are similar. If you cannot feel or hear the difference, it simply means you have further to go on your musical journey. Hopefully, you'll have the chance someday to appreciate what the piano offers the musician.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1173900 - 04/03/09 03:38 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
The OP asked:
Quote:
How many of your students have only a DP?

..... It happens to be the identical keyboard the OP currently uses, and it's not bad. I've used it for a number of events, especially the harpsichord setting, concerts on the mall with students, etc. ....


But I do not delude myself into believing it's a piano. It is not. Now, the discussion as to what would need to be done to turn a keyboard into an instrument that would be close to indistinguishable from a piano has been fought long and hard in these forums. It would cost probably ten times that of the very finest pianos to make a comparable electronic keyboard.

The secondary issue, which has already been answered in the posts above, is that a piano's touch, feel, and response is quite different from that of keyboards. They are similar. Just as a harpsichord, organ, Celeste, are similar. If you cannot feel or hear the difference, it simply means you have further to go on your musical journey. Hopefully, you'll have the chance someday to appreciate what the piano offers the musician.


I assume that is the Yamaha Clavinova CLP-124 you are referring to and if so I agree completely that it's more a keyboard than a piano, it's ancient history as far as digital pianos go and you are sorely mistaken as well about the feel and responsiveness of modern digital pianos.

Have you tried any of the new models in the stores? Just a simple yes or no please?

I still seriously want to hear your opinion of why "They limit themselves when they choose this route." You didn't answer it, but attempted to sidestep it as you did with the entire post above.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173906 - 04/03/09 03:51 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11582
Loc: Canada
Kennychafin, on any digital, am I able to feel the actions of a hammer in my fingertips? Will I hear the resonance of a vibrating string spread its way along the sound board in secondary sound, and will I be able to manipulate that resonance? If I release the damper and play a chord, will all the strings reverberate according to their nature, and if I lower the damper but hold down the keys, will the colour of this reverberation change? Can I get the feeling that all these subtle properties of real objects made of wood and tight wire will respond in real time in a real way to my touch and actions? Am I able to manipulate these things, and create the sound that I want to make, in the manner that I want to make them? Rather than having the instrument do it for me? Can I become sensitized and responsive to an instrument that has no natural response?

Perhaps John was not able to answer the question of limitations, but I have attempted to do so twice now. Certainly there are digitals out there which are far superior to the finicky Samick that I'm struggling with right now, but I can't believe that any can behave like an acoustic.

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#1173914 - 04/03/09 04:08 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Kennychafin, on any digital, am I able to feel the actions of a hammer in my fingertips? Will I hear the resonance of a vibrating string spread its way along the sound board in secondary sound, and will I be able to manipulate that resonance? If I release the damper and play a chord, will all the strings reverberate according to their nature, and if I lower the damper but hold down the keys, will the colour of this reverberation change? Can I get the feeling that all these subtle properties of real objects made of wood and tight wire will respond in real time in a real way to my touch and actions? Am I able to manipulate these things, and create the sound that I want to make, in the manner that I want to make them? Rather than having the instrument do it for me? Can I become sensitized and responsive to an instrument that has no natural response?

Perhaps John was not able to answer the question of limitations, but I have attempted to do so twice now. Certainly there are digitals out there which are far superior to the finicky Samick that I'm struggling with right now, but I can't believe that any can behave like an acoustic.


Keystring, the basic answer to this is YES. I'll ask you the same question I asked John. Have you actually tried any of the current Digital Pianos? Absolutely you can feel the hammer action -- even on my low-end Casio PX320. As I explained the creation of the sound is very complex and not at all unlike what actually happens in an acoustic piano. And yes there are digital pianos out that there that do everything you are implying that they don't do, which is why I'm still asking for a simple answer to "WHAT LIMITATIONS?" (not what a particular piano does or doesn't do).



I'm curious, what Samick model are you struggling with? And is it doing or not doing the things you describe above?

I'm not going to claim that a digital piano is exactly the same as an acoustic/analog, but nor is any given acoustic/analog the same as any other one, particularly between manufacturers, styles and models. But do they have similar characteristics such as touch, responsiveness, sound quality, timber the answer is yes for both acoustic/analog pianos and digital pianos.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173922 - 04/03/09 04:22 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11582
Loc: Canada
It's a GX100C and it is definitely inadequate for anything I want to do. I know that it is quite lower end.

I did once play a super-expensive super-fancy digital in a store. It was responsive and "perfect", but IT was creating the sound. I need the actual thing to be there: the strings etc. It was some years ago.

Ken, I see you are a clarinetist. Do you not respond to the vibrations of the reed, the sense of air flow, maybe your instrument vibrates to the sound as you play it (I don't play clarinet, but I do play a number of instruments) which is all part of the act of playing? That's what I miss in the DP.



Edited by keystring (04/03/09 04:25 PM)

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#1173928 - 04/03/09 04:38 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Thanks, I'll check out the GX100C....Hmm not finding much, the one google listing I got lists it as a "keyboard" so maybe that's the issue....not sure.

Anyway thanks for your response.

Yes I am a clarinet player, but have lost most of my technique at this point. frown

Absolute the feedback (which is what it's called in a "systems" sense) is always crucial to any musical instrument and certainly the low-end keyboards don't do much to emulate a piano, I'm not disputing that at all, but what I am saying is that the current high end digital pianos are all about doing exactly that in trying to provide a similar if not identical playing experience as an acoustic/analog instrument.

I'm intrigued by your statement "It was responsive and perfect but IT was creating the sound" Does not the acoustic piano create the sound as well?



Edited by kennychaffin (04/03/09 04:38 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173929 - 04/03/09 04:40 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Well, even as we speak, the Kawaii dealer in your city, Bellevue, is offering a huge sale on instruments seized in a bank foreclosure.
Hmm. What do you mean by "Kawai dealer"? Currently, the only Kawai dealer in the whole state is in Bremerton..


Sorry, thinking of Washburn. According to the Kawaii web site, and the radio ads I'm hearing, try

Prosser Piano And Organ Company
13400 Interurban Avenue South
Tukwila, WA 98168
206-957-8732


Wow! You're correct! I just got off the phone with them. They became a Kawai dealership 1 week ago. I started my search for a Kawai piano (acoustic and digital) just before that, when the only dealership in WA was in Bremerton (across Puget Sound from Seattle), and it has no digitals. The Prosser store, according to the salesperson I spoke with, is also a Roland dealer (but she didn't know about the forthcoming Roland V-Piano). Prosser has both acoustic and digital Kawais (even a Shigeru Kawai!). The list of digitals she gave me: CP177, CP117, CA71, CA91, CA71, CP155, CP175. I asked about the CE200 and CA51. They're coming, but not there yet.

2 days ago I ordered the CE200 online. See my post. I just called WI and put the order on hold. Cancelling will cost $30. I think I'll be able to get down to the Prosser store this weekend, not to buy, but to see and try the first Kawais since the Kawai upright (a K3?) I had to sell decades ago because of a chronic basketball injury to my right hand's little finger. I'll visit again when the CE200 and CE51 come in. And even then I may wait until the V-Piano is available here. And while I'm waiting, I might as well visit the nearest Yamaha dealer, in Tacoma, 30 miles from me.

So thanks for the information, John!
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1173935 - 04/03/09 04:55 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Well, even as we speak, the Kawaii dealer in your city, Bellevue, is offering a huge sale on instruments seized in a bank foreclosure.
Hmm. What do you mean by "Kawai dealer"? Currently, the only Kawai dealer in the whole state is in Bremerton..


Sorry, thinking of Washburn. According to the Kawaii web site, and the radio ads I'm hearing, try

Prosser Piano And Organ Company
13400 Interurban Avenue South
Tukwila, WA 98168
206-957-8732


Wow! You're correct! I just got off the phone with them. They became a Kawai dealership 1 week ago. I started my search for a Kawai piano (acoustic and digital) just before that, when the only dealership in WA was in Bremerton (across Puget Sound from Seattle), and it has no digitals. The Prosser store, according to the salesperson I spoke with, is also a Roland dealer (but she didn't know about the forthcoming Roland V-Piano). Prosser has both acoustic and digital Kawais (even a Shigeru Kawai!). The list of digitals she gave me: CP177, CP117, CA71, CA91, CA71, CP155, CP175. I asked about the CE200 and CA51. They're coming, but not there yet.

2 days ago I ordered the CE200 online. See my post. I just called WI and put the order on hold. Cancelling will cost $30. I think I'll be able to get down to the Prosser store this weekend, not to buy, but to see and try the first Kawais since the Kawai upright (a K3?) I had to sell decades ago because of a chronic basketball injury to my right hand's little finger. I'll visit again when the CE200 and CE51 come in. And even then I may wait until the V-Piano is available here. And while I'm waiting, I might as well visit the nearest Yamaha dealer, in Tacoma, 30 miles from me.

So thanks for the information, John!


That sounds like great news! Isn't this place wonderful!
smile

Oh and I'll be very interested in hearing what you find out and what you end up buying!





Edited by kennychaffin (04/03/09 05:08 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173947 - 04/03/09 05:25 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin


I'm not disputing that at all, but what I am saying is that the current high end digital pianos are all about doing exactly that in trying to provide a similar if not identical playing experience as an acoustic/analog instrument.



Just because that is what they are trying to achieve doesn't mean they actually achieve it.

I have been on a two year quest to find the right digital piano for me. I also own an acoustic upright piano which I bought brand new. I bought a Roland FP-7 at one point but decided it wasn't for me and have recently sold it.

In the last 2 years I have played the entire Yamaha CVP 400 series, CLP 200 and 300 series, the P85, P140, CP33 and CP300. I have also played the Roland HP series and the FP4/7 and quite a few Casios and some of the newer Kawai models. As part of that search I've also been fortunate enough to play lots of acoustic pianos, the highlight of which was an absolutely gorgeous brand new Steinway Model M.

I am currently awaiting the release of the Yamaha P155 which I reckon will be the one I go for. I have both the space and the money for a CLP380 (I prefer Yamaha over Roland) but it's not worth all the extra money as it's simply no match for my acoustic upright. I need a digital for quiet practice time, both at night and also to spare my family from listening to my half hour long scales routine!! grin Hopefully the P155 will be adequate for the job when I can't play my acoustic.

There are so many things digitals don't do as well as an acoustic. The main things for me is there is no feedback through the keys or pedals when you play. You are not connected to a digital they way you are to an acoustic. The pedalling on a digital is far from that on an acoustic piano. You don't have all the subtle options you have on a real piano. It's not much better than on/off on any digital I've played.

The sound is in the same bracket. No matter how they try it still doesn't sound the same as an acoustic. The difference between watching something on TV vs being there in person. Even in this world of digital satellite with HD, surround sound etc., it's still not the same as being there.

The feel of the keyboard is probably the area where digitals are getting the closest. The actions are very good as far as weight, touch etc. are concerned. I'm looking forward to having a go on an Avant Grand when it is released to see if their Tactile Response System can complete the touch/feel experience.

_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1173960 - 04/03/09 06:13 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
Well, what would you rather: lessons on an electronic keyboard, or no lessons? Developing musicianship on an electric keyboard, or not doing it at all? Playing on what you can get, or giving up and watching yet another worthless program on television?

No, they're not a piano; this class (with sequencers and sound modules) is an instrument in its own right, and as with acoustic pianos, there are better and worse ones. I have both; for a long time I could afford only a digital... and I did use, it, I did learn, I developed within its, and my, capabilities. When I could afford an acoustic, and lived in a place where I could play it without the neighbors calling the police, and could have lessons with a real piano teacher, that's what I did.

It seems to me that living beyond our means is a problem that is coming home to roost for quite a few people. Making the most we can of what is really available to us is, in my view, a commendable thing. That is not to say we need to foster delusions about digital v. acoustic, or to fail to take a real look about our priorities: the posts about that really hit the mark. But I would rather see students encouraged, rather than smacked down. Encouraging them to have higher goals is a great thing, and I hope that in time, many of them will reach them. Meanwhile, progress is available...
_________________________
Clef


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#1173961 - 04/03/09 06:14 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Gerry Armstrong
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin


I'm not disputing that at all, but what I am saying is that the current high end digital pianos are all about doing exactly that in trying to provide a similar if not identical playing experience as an acoustic/analog instrument.



Just because that is what they are trying to achieve doesn't mean they actually achieve it.

I have been on a two year quest to find the right digital piano for me. I also own an acoustic upright piano which I bought brand new. I bought a Roland FP-7 at one point but decided it wasn't for me and have recently sold it.
.....
The sound is in the same bracket. No matter how they try it still doesn't sound the same as an acoustic. The difference between watching something on TV vs being there in person. Even in this world of digital satellite with HD, surround sound etc., it's still not the same as being there.

The feel of the keyboard is probably the area where digitals are getting the closest. The actions are very good as far as weight, touch etc. are concerned. I'm looking forward to having a go on an Avant Grand when it is released to see if their Tactile Response System can complete the touch/feel experience.



Bravo for you! At least you have some actual hands on experience with digital pianos!

It true that the quest for a similar playing experience to an acoustic/grand is never finished I guess, but sometimes the goal changes, who's to say that an acoustic grand is the be-all end-all eh? I think there are many things which actual are an advantage to Digital Pianos -- portability, no need for tuning or furniture polish, ability to practice without disturbing others, ability to emulate different models of pianos etc.

I get the distinct impression that many of those who rail against digital pianos are simply doing it to maintain the status quo without any real knowledge of what's out there (doesn't seem to be the case for you though).

I've got to agree about the pedals (something that had not been touched on yet) they pretty much suck for what I've seen so far, but I have not tried many of the options that are available.

As far as the sound, certainly that is going to depend on the particular digital piano and speakers, etc. etc. all kinds of variables there. Interesting thing is that many people probably couldn't tell the difference and particularly in an ensemble setting.


Thanks for some real-world input on this topic!
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173987 - 04/03/09 07:53 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Teaching break - I rail against calling a dandelion a rose.

In my youth, I attended a concert at Grieg's home, with an excellent pianist playing his compositions on the original piano. Unfortunately, seating was limited, so they used a PA system to pipe the sound outside, where the rest of us sat.

I felt cheated. There was no difference than listening to a recording. I didn't get to hear the actual piano, but an electronic substitution for it.

There is a difference, but explaining it is much like trying to explain colors to a blind person. It just cannot be done.

I am not going to run out to try every new product that comes along, just to see if it's almost as good as a piano. I'll just stick with the piano, thank you.

Question - why is it so important to you to call something which isn't a piano, a piano?
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1173989 - 04/03/09 07:58 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Teaching break - I rail against calling a dandelion a rose.

In my youth, I attended a concert at Grieg's home, with an excellent pianist playing his compositions on the original piano. Unfortunately, seating was limited, so they used a PA system to pipe the sound outside, where the rest of us sat.

I felt cheated. There was no difference than listening to a recording. I didn't get to hear the actual piano, but an electronic substitution for it.

There is a difference, but explaining it is much like trying to explain colors to a blind person. It just cannot be done.

I am not going to run out to try every new product that comes along, just to see if it's almost as good as a piano. I'll just stick with the piano, thank you.

Question - why is it so important to you to call something which isn't a piano, a piano?



Still waiting on your answers. Once more your and trying to avoid answering. Unless that partial answer above is a NO YOU HAVE NOT TRIED THEM you just rail against them.

I think my very first reaction to you was right on target.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1173996 - 04/03/09 08:14 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Kenny,

Your 1st reaction is way off target. John is right when he states a digital piano is not an acoustic piano. I normally refer to digital pianos as digital pianos and acoustic pianos as "real" pianos.

As I pointed out above, and you agreed with me, there are many areas where a DP simply does not compare to a real piano.

So I fail to see what your point is, and why you are attacking one of the most valuable members in the Teacher's Forum.

I have played all of the DP's I have as I am looking to buy one to take advantage of the fact you can play with headphones on when I can't play my acoustic, but you don't need to have played all the ones I have to realise that none of them is a satisfactory substitute to a real piano for a serious piano student.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1173999 - 04/03/09 08:22 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Kenny
Ever been to a concert by a great classical pianist on a digital instrument?? Any idea why? I bet they could easily get labeled as say a "Roland Artist" and get the highest of the high tech digital.So access is not the problem.
One of the main tenets of learning to play the piano, is to learn how to interface with this percussive instrument and make it sing. A digital instrument uses different principles. Not sure what sort of answers you are looking for. High end digitals are widely available and many of us have played them at dealers. The more expensive ones have a much beter touch than the cheaper ones, and could sound better than a crappy acoustic, but they are not an acoustic piano and you cannot learn all of piano technique on them. There is a niche for them for the many reasons already cited, most of which have to do with money and convenience. But if you want to call yourself a pianist, you need to play the acoustic piano.

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#1174001 - 04/03/09 08:34 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
buck2202 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Cleveland, OH
I don't think anyone is saying that a digital piano is the same as a piano. There are qualities of a high-quality acoustic that cannot yet be reproduced on a digital instrument. Maybe someday that will happen, but not yet.

The point that I think the DP proponents should be trying to make is that digital instruments do capture many of the important qualities of acoustic pianos, and do it in a way that eliminates many of the acoustic piano's drawbacks -- noise that can disturb neighbors for apartment-dwellers, space issues that come with grand pianos, maintenance costs, difficulty of high-quality recording by amateurs, cost, etc.

Given that, and the fact that many, many household pianos out there are poorly maintained, why not accept the digital piano as a valid option? It's not an entirely different instrument..I'd call it simply another class of piano with its own advantages and disadvantages. Wouldn't you recommend a high-quality digital over a spinet or used upright with a questionable maintenance history? "Acoustic" shouldn't trump all other concerns.

Many of us would like to have well-maintained, high-quality pianos, but when that's not possible we all accept shortcomings in our instruments. We buy low-cost second (or third, or fourth) hand instruments of questionable quality, we limit our playing time to respect neighbors, and we buy digital.

MHO is that both the "acoustic is always better than digital" and "digital is the same as acoustic" arguments are silly. There's a continuum of pianos out there, ranging from very good to very bad, and I'd put good digitals somewhere inside that spectrum. They don't default to the extreme low end, nor do they touch the extreme high end...but most of us are in the middle somewhere anyway.

edit: Of course a serious pianist will always want a good "real" piano, but a good digital can serve many people quite well.


Edited by buck2202 (04/03/09 08:38 PM)

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#1174007 - 04/03/09 09:03 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Gerry Armstrong
Kenny,

Your 1st reaction is way off target. John is right when he states a digital piano is not an acoustic piano. I normally refer to digital pianos as digital pianos and acoustic pianos as "real" pianos.

As I pointed out above, and you agreed with me, there are many areas where a DP simply does not compare to a real piano.

So I fail to see what your point is, and why you are attacking one of the most valuable members in the Teacher's Forum.

I have played all of the DP's I have as I am looking to buy one to take advantage of the fact you can play with headphones on when I can't play my acoustic, but you don't need to have played all the ones I have to realise that none of them is a satisfactory substitute to a real piano for a serious piano student.



Look, you're not even understanding what my first reaction was. Let me spell it out to you. JOHN IS A GRAND PIANO BIGOT.

He's not even tried the latest Digital pianos. Digital pianos are pianos as much so as any other piano. Just just said so above. Of course that depends on your blinders I guess and how define a piano. Some apparently define a piano as ACOUSTIC ONLY. Well if they do, they are wrong, that's not what the rest of the world does.

I totally disagree with your assumption that NONE of them is a satisfactory substitute. That is just simply wrong.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1174009 - 04/03/09 09:04 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: Andromaque]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Kenny
Ever been to a concert by a great classical pianist on a digital instrument??...


Straw man argument.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174010 - 04/03/09 09:05 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: buck2202]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: buck2202
I don't think anyone is saying that a digital piano is the same as a piano. There are qualities of a high-quality acoustic that cannot yet be reproduced on a digital instrument. Maybe someday that will happen, but not yet.

The point that I think the DP proponents should be trying to make is that digital instruments do capture many of the important qualities of acoustic pianos, and do it in a way that eliminates many of the acoustic piano's drawbacks -- noise that can disturb neighbors for apartment-dwellers, space issues that come with grand pianos, maintenance costs, difficulty of high-quality recording by amateurs, cost, etc.

Given that, and the fact that many, many household pianos out there are poorly maintained, why not accept the digital piano as a valid option? It's not an entirely different instrument..I'd call it simply another class of piano with its own advantages and disadvantages. Wouldn't you recommend a high-quality digital over a spinet or used upright with a questionable maintenance history? "Acoustic" shouldn't trump all other concerns.

Many of us would like to have well-maintained, high-quality pianos, but when that's not possible we all accept shortcomings in our instruments. We buy low-cost second (or third, or fourth) hand instruments of questionable quality, we limit our playing time to respect neighbors, and we buy digital.

MHO is that both the "acoustic is always better than digital" and "digital is the same as acoustic" arguments are silly. There's a continuum of pianos out there, ranging from very good to very bad, and I'd put good digitals somewhere inside that spectrum. They don't default to the extreme low end, nor do they touch the extreme high end...but most of us are in the middle somewhere anyway.

edit: Of course a serious pianist will always want a good "real" piano, but a good digital can serve many people quite well.


Thank you Buck.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

Top
#1174017 - 04/03/09 09:13 PM Re: How many of your students have only a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
You are free to disagree with me but I am not making any assumptions. I am simply stating my opinion. It does not mean I am blinkered, a bigot nor can you state that I must be wrong because I don't agree with you. I simply have a different opinion, that's all.

I stand by my view - for a serious piano student a DP is not a suitable substitute. You have a different view, fair enough.

I will only point out one more thing. You are attacking people who you believe don't have any experience of DP's yet you yourself stated earlier that you have little experience of acoustic pianos. You are comparing DP's to something that you have stated you know little about so on what basis can you attack others for something which you are doing yourself?
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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