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About the race thing..... I work with black people and many times we have all talked the fact that a person (most likely a neighbor/relative) of ours with "food stamps" can eat "steak/pork chops.." everyday while we eat what our budget allows. Ditto for clothing, medical care, dental, etc.... I am tired of hearing how my black brother is "living off the system", because I know a whole alot of white people doing it too!!!!!!!


Here's a real KICKER!!!!! A south Bend, IN piano store that I go into here and there had a program (I think Baldwin might have pulled it recently) that allowed a person to get a piano if they couldn't afford it (a Baldwin Hamilton or other upright below that model), the payment was about $30.00 a month. It was a rent to own like deal. HERE IS THE CATCH: The person buying the piano had to have a child under 18 taking piano lessons and be in financial need. NO CREDIT CHECK either. LOL Give me a break....

I'm still a Demo (and I always will be), but I am a very conservative one now.

Freddie

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: freddie ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: freddie ]

Every time my teacher, or my tech, plays my piano.

Dwain

Didn't sound obnoxious to me, lb. And FWIW, your life story matched my father's almost exactly, line for line.

Dwain

Derick wrote:

"Which leads me to Cork's post. Quite frankly, I'm shocked. Far be it from me to judge someone else's ethics, but I am as surprised at what you said as I am by what lb said about Enron employees. How can anyone feel not a twinge of guilt, and actually be proud of the fact that their company let people go and they reaped the benefits of the healthier bottom-line at the expense of the pain and suffering of the former employees?"

I'll only make a couple of comments for reasons that are obvious to most readers, and I'll try not to insult you, Derick. Obviously you believe passionately in the tenets of your anti-capitalist system and while I utterly reject what you implicitly propose I admire your courage for sticking with your beliefs in the face of history and current-day reality.

I am extremely proud to be a member of the bloated, blood-sucking executive class. I've worked exceptionally hard to get to this level and sacrificed much on the way, and I've done it while retaining my personal integrity. As for CEO's making too much money, perhaps in the US many do; but they have ZERO job security. (Unlike virtually any other job in this country CEO's and other senior executives can lose their jobs simply because they disagree with something, or because there is a personality conflict.)

But the real point I'll make on this is simple: I've watched my CEO closely for a couple of years now, and I wouldn't take his job for any amount of money. The man works virtually every waking hour. His lunches and dinners are nearly all business discussions. His weekends are spent in the company of other firms' executives attempting to find other ways to grow our company. I receive e-mails from him on important topics at all hours of the day and night; yet though he works constantly he respects others' desire to spend time with their families.

I am, I believe, exceptionally good at what I do but I know I could not perform in that job the way he does. Is he worth three times more than I make? Absolutely, and if the other employees and stockholders saw the amount of effort he puts in to get the results we generate they would agree as well.

As for layoffs, yes I have been involved in a number of them. They are extremely painful actions for all involved. On the other hand, our company survived BECAUSE of these actions and as a result a lot of people still have jobs that would have been lost had the company gone out of business.

I won't get into the Enron mess in much detail, though I have connections that have provided some fascinating insights into what happened. However, I will point out that the company stock contribution to the 401k is just the portion provided BY THE COMPANY. These are independent retirement savings accounts funded primarily by contributions of the EMPLOYEE, not the company. If people have had their entire 401k wiped out that means they bought Enron stock with their own contributions, which is plain stupid. Is it a huge shame that their 401k's have been wiped out as a result of their putting ALL their eggs in one basket? Absolutely. It is a huge shame that people who did that chose to ignore the investment advice every company is required to provide their 401k participants. This advice includes discussion of the virtues of diversification and of the potential volatility of single stocks, including the company's. The employees who ignored that advice GAMBLED with their retirement and lost. I have no more sympathy for them than I do for people who fly to Vegas and blow it all there.

Enough. Most of this will make no impression on you anyway, because it doesn't fit into the solution set you have pre-programmed in your mind.

Regards,

Cork
The bloated, blood-sucking executive Barbarian.

These two concepts are contradictory. In a free society, the consumer cannot have the right to demand a price offered by a provider.

The consumer does always have the right to affect the provider's pricing structure by choosing to not buy a product at a given price. An offer to sell is simply that, an offer. If the provider is so off-base that no one will buy from him, he'll either adjust to market demands or go out of business. If he's got enough business on his own chosen terms, why should he (be forced to)change his business practices to reduce his profit? This would not be a free market, but a Randian form of slavery (where's ZH when you need her?).

No thanks, I'll put up with the inconvenience of shopping around for my best combination of price and service, and leave the planned economies to others.


Dwain

Gee, I've missed you, Cork!

Dwain

In the pro audio business, like pianos, everything is negotiable from the manufacturer's "list" price. However, anyone who's been around for any length of time learns that there's a system behind it that determines pricing (most of the time). Almost all equipment from larger companies such as keyboards, amplifiers, speakers, etc. fall into what is called a "B Mark". If list price is $10, dealer cost is $6. Extremely high-end microphones, tube pre-amps and the like usually fall into what is called a "C Mark" where assuming the same $10 list price, dealer cost is $7. The only two variables I can think of at the moment are when dealers purchase large quantities of any one product, they might get a small break on the price, but this is usually pretty small (even for national chains such as Guitar Center). There is also the potential for confusion as to which products are "B" and "C" marks. For example, not all microphone pre-amps are "C" marks, but most high-end ones are.

The reason I bring this up is that when I need something for my studio, I need only need to find the list price (which I can usually find on the manufacturer's web site). I can do the math from there as to what I'd expect to pay. I even have relationships with two different dealers where I simply email them what I want and they give me a standard pre-agreed margin. I don't need to haggle or shop them at all. They win since the only effort for them is writing up the sale. I win since I get a low margin purchase price. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the piano world adopt this model. In fact, I think it would be impossible. However, as a consumer, I think it would be healthy to have industry norms in place such as the "B" and "C" mark of the pro audio industry. Who knows? Perhaps they already exist and I just don't know about them. But I do know that I was offered well over 40% off both Yamaha and Schimmel pianos. I was even offered almost 40% off a Bosendorfer. Based on my experience, I suspect there isn't an industry-wide norm in terms of margin.

One more thought about dealer pricing in the piano industry. The more I think about it, the more I'm impressed with the truly honest piano dealers out there. Car dealers often have poor ethical reputations and yet they rely on repeat business. I'm curious to know some of the numbers in the piano industry regarding repeat business. I'd imagine that ethics/values aside, it would be easy for a piano dealer to justify "the pursuit of margin" over "truly meeting the customer's needs". What's the worst that can happen? He/she won't come back? They're not likely to come back for years anyway. And when they are ready to move-up, they have so few choices in terms of dealers that they're almost forced to come back. I drive a Ford, and just because I have a bad experience with a dealer doesn't mean I won't drive another Ford. However it does mean that I'll try and find another Ford dealer in my area. But in the piano industry, you might have to look in another state to find that dealer. If the customer purchases a high-end piano, I'd imagine that the likelyhood of them returning for another purchase drops dramatically. All the more reason to get margin at any cost for the dealer.

So assuming my conclusions have some truth in them, rather than blasting the less than ethical dealers, I'd like to commend the ethical ones. That's precisely why I went out of my way to recommend a couple dealers that I didn't even purchase from. We need to support these people!

Good Post Cork!!! Your right on the money!!


I slightly disagree with you about the 401k issue (but only by a frog's hair, because when you gamble like that you should accept your loss, but then again your boss shouldn't pocket your 401k imput ). If that is really the way the whole thing went down anyway (it sounds like you got the true version of the story). I heard the employee's of that company had the chance to bail out of their 401k plan, but decided to sit on it (gamble) and get rich instead.

I come into contact with alot of CEO's or higher up's in my job (LOL) and you are right Cork, they are the first to get the axe when something unfortunate happens. They are tied to their jobs 24 hours a day and basically married to the company. So many have came and gone that I have honestly lost track of them a long time ago. One said to me a short while ago "Well it's you and me again Freddie, we can't keep anyone else in this damn place for very long".

Freddie

Has anybody noticed this thread has the makings of a book or movie?

Ib - the grizzled corporate veteran.

Larry - the handsome leading man and capitalistic hero.

Cork - the mysterious, well-heeled, old friend.

Derick - the antagonist seeking wisdom and higher meaning.

pique - the glamorous "Lady of the Northwoods" with the shady piano past.

freddie - the "Rudy" character who will triumph against all odds.

Norbert - the European uncle with past ties to Larry.

Jolly - the redneck throw-a-way who dies early in the plot.

A cast of thousands.

and...

YAMAHA - the BEAST from the EAST!

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jolly ]

Larry -- I don't know if you were addressing me, but if you were, you missed my point. I have no problem with different stores charging different amounts for the same product. As you justly point out, the level of service, level of convenience, and cost of doing business will vary store to store, and there is no reason that in a market environment, prices shouldn't take account of this reality.

My "problem" is where a store charges different amounts for the same product to different people. The obvious possibilities of discrimination and prejudice are clear. But more to the point, within a capitalist economy, charging different amounts for the smae produce to different customers is disruptive of human community. There is a spiral downward in human behavior, as customers either come out feeling ripped off or at least distrustful, and sellers (especially if they work on commission or for other owners)feel obligated to try to squeeze out the last dollar. Of course, it doesn't have to happen that way, but the mechanism to push things in that direction are clearly there.

And that's a problem. The benefits of capitalism are that it provides incentive for innovation and an array of choices to the consumer. Fixed prices in which merchants charge the same price to all customers do not have negative impacts on either of these two benefits, and build more trusting communities. As destruction of community (often described as cutthroat competition) is the most common complaint against capitalism, I would think it would benefit those that believe in capitalism as a system to work to build community rather than destrohy it.

Do those underpaid CEOs include...

KAREN HENDRICKS?????

Hey, Jolly, What about me?

You can just cast me as the comic relief.

Nah, let's see...Hank...


Hank - the Jimmy Stewartish, nice-pianoguy-next-door.

Jolly
Thanks

I am in a famous world class city on Saturday night, and I am reading the piano forum. Is something wrong here.

The first thing I did when checking in was to see if there was a computer connection in the room. There was

lb

No, I wasn't really addressing any one individual at all. Sorry if it seemed that way. The thread was just sort of working its way into those two ideas in general.

Obviously I can't sit here and not reply, but I will make this short and sweet. Or at least as short and sweet as I can make it.

Freddie - my heart goes out to people in your situation. You work hard but don't make a lot of money. Then you look around and see people who either don't work, or have little ambition, who get hand-outs. Then there are people, who have worked hard but also "got lucky". Most have done well, some have done very well. But the fact is that luck plays into this as much as hard work, and that can seem very unfair. Some people who start out life as "unlucky" manage to get out of the hole by working their butt off. lb sounds like one of these people. But lb has made it and he now says the heck with the rest of the world. That's his choice. But I think it's cold. I wish you the best in life Freddie and hope you can reach your hopes and dreams. I pray you will always remain the humble individual you are and that your heart never hardens.

Mike Parke - the only people I insulted were those who insulted me first; lb andd David Burton. The new Derick is all about playing nice with those who play nice with me. I may not agree with Larry or Cork, but they were not insulting. I will "play nice" with them.

Cork - My problem is not with people who make a lot of money, my problem is with people who make a lot of money and reap benefits at the expense of others... Company X is having a very bad year. The Board of Directors for Company X meets and decides they have to lay-off 40,000 people in order to survive. Company X also reduces employee benefits, and reduces employee's pensions. Yet, Company X's executives benefits AND pensions are enhanced - at the same meeting!!! At the end of the year, Company X meets WallStreet's expectations. Company X's CEO and Board of Directors are given a slap on the back, a firm hand-shake and their $7,000,000/year salary is augmented by a $14,000,000 bonus.

Now do you really think that is fair? How can these executives justify letting people go, reduce benefits of remaining employees, yet increase your own benefits and take a $14,000,000 bonus???????

Maybe you think that is fair because you feel you have worked harder than eveyrone else, but I don't. I am not anti-capitalist. I have a heart. And believe me if I had to let 40,000 people go and reduce benefits you can bet that I, as CEO of Company X would not take a $14,000,000 bonus and increase my own benefits. I'd be ashamed.

Hank Drake mentioned Karen Hedricks. I believe she is the woman who was paid millions by Baldwin, brought the company to the brink of bankruptcy and had a severance of a couple of mil a year after working for Baldwin for a year or two??? Not sure if I have all the fact right, but that's pretty close. All the CEO's I know out there are Karen Hendricks CEO's. I'm sure there are some who have a conscience. If your company, Cork, is one of those that has a conscience, I applaud you and your company and do not begrudge you a dime of your hard-earned money. If not, I'll pray for you...

It is easier for a camel to fit thru the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter heaven.

Derick

Derick
I work every day with high strung sensitive individuals(piano people). I am very careful in what and way I say things to avoid riling any temprements. If I say anything to make someone mad, it was intentional.

A couple comments you made

" anyone who can afford 3 cars (a new one every year), the oldest of which is 3 years old, probably doesn't need the discount as much as the young couple with the newborn."

I agree totally with you on this, I do not need the discount as much as the young couple. I do not need it, but I deserve it, they don't


"You've essentially eaten some of their lunch by accepting the discount whether you know it or not."

You are implying that I took something from them. That I took food out of their mouth is the way I read it.

I will also admit that I have made some real stupid mistakes in my life, but getting married and having kids was not one of them. It gave me some incentative to do something. Dropping out of school was not a choice in that era, but I did something about it.

Your problem is that you want to punish somone who took the inititive and the guts to succeed. There is an old saying in the Czech Republic that fits you.
"If a man has one goat and his neighbor has two, he is jealous. He doesn't need two goats, he just hopes one of the neighbors goats dies so they will be even"
:p :p :p

lb

Derick

"lb sounds like one of these people. But lb has made it and he now says the heck with the rest of the world. That's his choice. But I think it's cold."

I didn't just make it, I have had it made since my father instilled in me the work ethics that I have. I work just as hard today as I did 40 years ago. I retired at 50 years old, but after 2 years decided that retirement sucks.

Let me tell you what my cold ass has done this past year.

I bought from Goodwill stores 140 pounds of clothes per month and had them shipped to towns in the former Eastern Block.

I have at my cost made contacts between several police and fire departments in the former Eastern Block with departments in the U.S. and have carried documents and materials back and forth as well as paying for all translations.

I have arranged to have a small town in the Czech republic become a Sister City with a city in the U.S.. This includes arranging contact between businesses in these citys.

I have worked with a Catholic missionary organization in Genoa Italy to help support their missions in Central Africa. This includes the locating and purchasing of two brick forming machines so they can build houses that will not melt when it rains.

I have probably spent more in this work this past year than you earned.

I am cold when it comes to people that expect a handout and are to lazy to help themselves. Steve Cohen can vouch for some of this as he has helped me some.

I hope that this doesn't change the image of me on this forum that I have work so hard to get.

lb
PS. The two brick forming machines, I only paid for one of them, my friendly car dealer paid for the other one. But he will probably add the cost of it to that young couples car, after all someone has to pay for it.
[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lb ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lb ]

There's our good barbarian! Where have you been?

I would like to interrupt this exchange of ad homonym attacks to translate a humorous French saying: "If, at 20, you are NOT a communist you have no heart. If, at 40, you ARE a communist you have no brain."

Dear T2,

I have heard this quote attibuted to Winston Churchill and it went like this:

"A man who is under 30 and is a conservative has no heart and a man that is over 30 and is a liberal has no brain."