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#1173598 - 04/03/09 01:07 AM Why does IMSLP not have this score?
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
Okay, I'm looking for a piano solo part of Jesu Joy of a Man's desiring, I'm sure it's public domain...but IMSLP doesn't have any scores for the piece. Does anyone have one on their hard or a site they can give me?
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1173599 - 04/03/09 01:11 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
Did you happen to look at this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesu,_Joy_of_Man%27s_Desiring

The transcription you are searching for may not be public domain in America.
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

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#1173601 - 04/03/09 01:15 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: Coolkid70]
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
Really? Dangit......that sucks. I guess I just assumed it was in the public domain. Suck!
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1173604 - 04/03/09 01:57 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5936
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: xxmynameisjohnxx
Really? Dangit......that sucks. I guess I just assumed it was in the public domain. Suck!

If you're after the Myra Hess transcription why don't you just buy it? It can't be that hard to find, and I wouldn't think it would be very expensive.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1173607 - 04/03/09 02:12 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: currawong]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: currawong

If you're after the Myra Hess transcription why don't you just buy it? It can't be that hard to find, and I wouldn't think it would be very expensive.

It's not expensive... and I've seen it numerous times in second-hand shops anyway.

And cheers to Myra for all she gave Londoners during The Blitz. She was a class act.
_________________________
Jason

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#1173609 - 04/03/09 02:21 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: argerichfan]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5936
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
And cheers to Myra for all she gave Londoners during The Blitz. She was a class act.

According to Gerald Moore, when the sirens went off, she would just continue the concert in the basement.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1173646 - 04/03/09 05:23 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: currawong]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
And cheers to Myra for all she gave Londoners during The Blitz. She was a class act.

According to Gerald Moore, when the sirens went off, she would just continue the concert in the basement.


Goodness me! I hope all this refers to piano-playing.

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#1173674 - 04/03/09 07:06 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: Wood-demon]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Just in case the young student John in San Diego might battle to lay hands on Dame Myra Hess's charming arrangement of "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" ... here's the first page (of 4) ... looking pretty battered after 50 years in my much used collection ... but still much treasured.


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#1173679 - 04/03/09 07:33 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: btb]
Copake Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Columbia/Westchester Counties ...
If we don't want to pay for music why should anyone bother to compose it, publish it, or record it?

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#1173684 - 04/03/09 07:48 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: Copake]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Copake
If we don't want to pay for music why should anyone bother to compose it, publish it, or record it?


For the sake of art....for the sake of art....

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#1173704 - 04/03/09 08:51 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: Wood-demon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Well, for an optional exercise (perhaps even extra credit) you could go here:

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/db/IMSLP24416-PMLP04408-bwv147.pdf

and scroll down to page 49 where you will find the vocal score. You could then transcribe your own version. The accompaniment is already pretty close to what you are looking for.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1173840 - 04/03/09 01:41 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: epf]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18068
Loc: Victoria, BC
The US copyright on the Myra Hess transcription was renewed in 1954, and that renewal date may have something to do with the length of copyright in the US.

I could not find any immediate reference to how this law applies to works copyrighted in the US but originally published by non-US citizens outside the US. Hess' transcription was originally published by Oxford University Press in 1926. There is a copyright law governing works published outside the US by US citizens which indicates that copyright law, if the copyright has been renewed in the US, extends to 95 years after the date of the original publication,

In the meantime, it's not expensive and certainly worth buying, isn't it?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1173910 - 04/03/09 04:03 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: BruceD]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Encouraged by the warm appreciation which WoodDemon and argerichfan have for the Myra Hess arrangement of Bach’s Cantata BWV 147 Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring ... I thought it appropriate to include a little something about Dame Myra ... I was lucky enough to hear her play at the newly opened Royal Festival Hall in London in 1951 ... so my battered copy of the music has very special value ... but isn’t it marvellous that a 17 year old in San Diego shares a wish to play what us oldies might perhaps have thought was considered fuddy-duddy music.

"Her reputation was particularly enhanced by her innovative and deeply appreciated venture during World War II, the National Gallery Concerts. Wartime blackouts closed the concert halls of London. In the meantime, the National Gallery in London had been emptied of its art treasures, which were sent to parts of the country less vulnerable to German bombing. It was Hess's idea to open in 1939 the Gallery to the public for concerts every day during the lunch hours. Londoners flocked to these informal concerts. She arranged concerts from solo recitals to full-scale orchestral and choral music. She personally appeared more than any other artist (never asking for a fee), and got some of the finest musicians of the country to appear there. The effort was seen as a major boost to morale. In 1941 the grateful King George VI made her Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire."

Please chaps ... don’t raise the negative copyright party-pooping crap ... it’s total nonsense to be able to download all the works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin for free at IMSLP ... and to get starchy over the Hess arrangement ... here’s hoping the magnanimous character of Dame Myra is conveyed by the above ... and that she forgives us for giving a 17 old lad in San Diego a free copy of the first page of her handiwork ... I bet she’s tickled pink at the very thought of someone from today’s generation wanting to play her arrangement of Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring.

Alternatively sue me for breach of copyright ... but please not Johnny Cochran!!

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#1173911 - 04/03/09 04:03 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: BruceD]
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 1906
Loc: El Cajon, CA
Basically as I understand a little about copyright durations, in 1998 a law was passed extending copyrights another 20 years. They had been 75 years from publication, now they're 95 years. However, I believe it didn't re-copyright older works that had already gone public domain. So, at this point, music from 1922 or earlier (1922+75=1997) is public domain, as 1922 works had expired in 1997, before the law took effect, but a work in 1923 (for example, the hymn "Great Is Thy Faithfulness") is still under copyright protection, as 75 years after 1923 is 1998.
Also renewals took place 28 years after the original date, so if the renewal is 1950 or older I believe it's public domain, but if it's 1951 or newer it's copyrighted. At this time though I believe renewals are either automatic, or the term includes the renewal and is just as one copyright term. (Personally I think copyright terms have extended way too long. Originally I think it was 14 years, and considering how quickly some things drop out of popularity these days, I'm thinking 7 years might be a bit long. I personally would like to have songs that may have been new when kids started school to have their copyrights already expired by the time they're in high school.)
I'm not an attorney, though, so if I have any information wrong feel free to correct me.
_________________________
Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
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#1173931 - 04/03/09 04:44 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: btb]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18068
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: btb
[...]Please chaps ... don’t raise the negative copyright party-pooping crap ... it’s total nonsense to be able to download all the works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin for free at IMSLP ... and to get starchy over the Hess arrangement ... here’s hoping the magnanimous character of Dame Myra is conveyed by the above ...


Let's forget your righteous indignation about copyright laws which we have no control over. You seem not to be aware of the fact that copyright laws have duration limitations and that Bach, Mozrt, Beethoven and Chopin have been dead far beyond those limitations.

If you emulated the magnimous character of Dame Myra, which you highly praise, why do you offer only page one - since it's only four pages - of your copy of the requested transcription? Or, in fact, do you fear the coyright police?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1173932 - 04/03/09 04:45 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: 88Key_PianoPlayer]
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
My sister wants me to play it at her wedding in a few weeks, I've no problem buying music I just assumed I could get it for free. ha. Thanks for the information though, it was a fun thread to read through! I'll get my sister to buy me the score later today or tomorrow [she said she'd buy me any scores I can't find online since it is for her wedding and I'm not being paid, :P]
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1174014 - 04/03/09 09:09 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
wdot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 728
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Can you really learn this up to performance level in a few weeks? I'm not trying to be unkind, but based on your posts from recent months, I think that your learning process is laborious. This is probably because you're trying to advance very quickly, which is admirable. But you recently posted that you were playing only a couple of pages of a Mozart sonata movement for a jury. If that's true, you really need to consider if you're doing your sister and yourself justice by promising to play this piece at her wedding.

A few years ago a close family friend was getting married, and she asked me to play at her small wedding. She really wanted me to play this piece. I had accompanied it many times before, but I had never played the solo transcription. I bought it, and while I could basically sight-read it, I would not have been comfortable playing it in public until after a week or so. And I've been playing for 50 years.


Edited by wdot (04/03/09 09:11 PM)

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#1174075 - 04/03/09 10:59 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: wdot]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18068
Loc: Victoria, BC
The Bach-Hess transcription of "Jesu, Joy ..." is not a piece of cake. To play it fluidly, to voice it convincingly, takes a great deal of advanced technique. Perhaps John is not refering to the Hess transcription, but that's the one that's been referenced since this thread started.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1174089 - 04/03/09 11:40 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: BruceD]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I wonder how many transcriptions there are for piano solo. I have Harold Bauer's; it's not public domain either, and is definitely no simpler than the one by Hess.

Anybody else remember "Joy" by Apollo 100?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1174096 - 04/03/09 11:54 PM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: sotto voce]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I wonder how many transcriptions there are for piano solo. I have Harold Bauer's; it's not public domain either, and is definitely no simpler than the one by Hess.

Steven, back in my uni days -how long ago could that have been?- I arranged it for organ for a rather dodgy class assignment. And I still use it... and why not.

I was not aware that Bauer's rather pedestrian transcription was still public domain, with due respect, I did better than he did. But his edition of the Schumann Op. 134 is totally outdated, no one should use it.

But who is going to play Schumann's Op. 134 anyway? The curse of this world in ignoring one of Schumann's greatest works. Everybody: stop what you're doing and listen to a moment of genius.
_________________________
Jason

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#1174138 - 04/04/09 01:40 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: argerichfan]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21569
Loc: Oakland
A search on SheetMusicPlus shows several arrangements, many of which are cheaper and seem easier than the Hess version. I suggest looking there, and looking at the first pages to see which are most likely to be ready in time. Search for Bach Jesu Joy Piano, and you will get several hits.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1174145 - 04/04/09 02:46 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: BDB]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
As suggested by sv, there might well be many arrangements out there of the Bach Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring ... I too was misled by the bold title into thinking I had bought a copy of the real thing to replace my beaten up Myra Hess arrangement ... only to later discover it to be an arrangement by Ernest Hayward ... but might I strongly recommend to the lad who is going to charmingly play at his sister’s wedding ... that he go out of his way to find the Myra Hess version.

One of the special attributes of good composition is a poetic Spartan simplicity (a la Chopin) ... that means to establish an easily identifiable rhythmic note patterning in at least one of the hands (to enable auto-pilot sight-reading anticipation) ... thereby allowing a comprehensive focus on both hands ... more particularly on the meaty part of the score.

Unfortunately I seem to make it a habit of crossing swords with BruceD ... who sees the Hess arrangement as uphill ... when it’s not ... the Dame cunningly sets up in the first 8 measures a regular chime of growly LH octaves to mark off the beat on which she perches the Theme ... but here again the RH "triplets" are split up into a repeating note pattern of chords of 2 to 1 proportion ... the similar note patterns and regular pulse makes the playing easy.

To conclude the point ... here is a copy of the first page of the Hayward arrangement for comparison with the Hess ... you will note that in trying to make it easier he has in fact made the sight-reading more difficult because the LH rhythmic chords are variable and no longer all octaves.


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#1174158 - 04/04/09 04:12 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: BruceD]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: BruceD
The Bach-Hess transcription of "Jesu, Joy ..." is not a piece of cake. To play it fluidly, to voice it convincingly, takes a great deal of advanced technique. Perhaps John is not refering to the Hess transcription, but that's the one that's been referenced since this thread started.

Regards,
Yep. I ballsed it up at a wedding years ago. My Holberg was good though.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1174309 - 04/04/09 11:40 AM Re: Why does IMSLP not have this score? [Re: wdot]
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
Originally Posted By: wdot
Can you really learn this up to performance level in a few weeks? I'm not trying to be unkind, but based on your posts from recent months, I think that your learning process is laborious. This is probably because you're trying to advance very quickly, which is admirable. But you recently posted that you were playing only a couple of pages of a Mozart sonata movement for a jury. If that's true, you really need to consider if you're doing your sister and yourself justice by promising to play this piece at her wedding.

A few years ago a close family friend was getting married, and she asked me to play at her small wedding. She really wanted me to play this piece. I had accompanied it many times before, but I had never played the solo transcription. I bought it, and while I could basically sight-read it, I would not have been comfortable playing it in public until after a week or so. And I've been playing for 50 years.


Well, usually what I do with pieces I need to play for any reason in very short amount of time....I play the melody, mark the chords, and improv around it. I'm doing this with Canon in D since the arrangement I have [George Winston's] would be too difficult for me to learn as written in just a couple weeks. I take the chords, the basic voicing he gives, and read the melody in a similar way as he does it, but improv my own stuff around it. It's always easier when you do that. If I get the music and it would be to difficult to play well in just a few weeks, then I'd do that for this piece as well. I'm also doing that for a slow movement of a Beethoven sonata I'm playing....I'm playing it as written for awhile, but my sister needed me to make it longer, so I take what Beethoven gave, keep the same tempo and feel and kind of go with it. It's good fun, and sounds great!
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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