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I bought my daughter a Yamaha Oboe (the one where they reduced the price by 33%.) It is an excellent entry-level oboe, clearly the best one out there, which is why I bought it. But at its old price, it was clearly outclassed by the finer makers who had introduced lower-priced models. And after playing them, everyone knew it.

So they had a choice: majorly increase the price/value equation by increasing the value side of the equation (which would have required massive retooling), or increase the equation by massively reducing the price. To not choose would have meant they'd go the way of Baldwin and end up in nowhereland. They chose the latter, which was wonderful for us.

I expect they will now be in the same position with pianos. There is nothing "wrong" with Yamaha pianos (other than the GH and GP series); they are just tremendously overpriced. And Larry is right: the creation of the "S" series indicates what Yamaha really thinks of its own product.

There's a sucker born every minute. If Yamaha and their dealers can get $15K for an $8K piano, more power to them. If Honda can get $30k for a $20K car, more power to them too.

You all may get the best pianos, but I bet you miss out somewhere else. When buying a TV or computer monitor do you look at horizontal and vertical rates, color temperature or native resolution? Who's got the time to research this stuff? I followed a DVD forum when DVD was in its infancy and it blew me away how many people paid hundreds of dollars for "Monster" brand cables to connect up their Hi Fi equipment, without even looking at what it did or didn't achieve. They blindly believed the advertising. Name another brand of cable. What's wrong with cheap twisted pair?

We are bombarded with so much advertising it is difficult to cut through it and make a decision based on reality. Kids in the house make it even harder. They want the item with the perceived value, not the one that has the real value.

In business no one ever got fired for buying IBM computers, even when they didn't work properly. But try buying some third world import.

And if Yamaha gets bashed on this forum from time to time, so be it. That's what it takes to wake up the likes of persons such as myself to the idea that there are some other excellent options out there. The Sierra Club and Greenpeace have been using such tactics for years, and I would say we are now more environmentally aware because of it.

Caveat emptor! My 2 cents (though I really should charge you $0.03 for such advice). :rolleyes:

You got that right.

Mike

And all other piano manufacturers charge a fair price ? They are all obscenely marked up and anyone who pays list deserves to be seperated from their money. Estonia gets alot of praise around here for being a bargain "for the money" I dont quibble with that. I've seen the 6'3" for $18,900. Thats a good price for a piano of that quality. That is nowhere close to the list price however.

Regards

Steve

Well, I think Yamah's cache is "safety". If you don't know a lot about pianos, Yamaha is still a known quantity. They DO produce a consistent product and it DOES have certain resale value. So, it's a safe bet. For the vast majority of people buying pianos, Weber, Pearl River, Petrof, Estonia are not known. So, to those people, it's a huge risk to invest thousands of dollars with a company that is a virtual stranger - better to pay a few thousand more and know what you're getting. I think Steinway gets the same thing. You may not know so much about Mason & Hamlin, etc... - but you KNOW Steinway. And, I do think there's a tendency on this forum to bash both Yamaha and Steinway. For my money, the best piano is a good used one. You get past the showroom markup if you don't know how to bargain, and you don't have to go through the "settling in" period to see what your piano will really sound like. I've got a Kawaii (bought used) and I love it. It's no Steinway, but I didn't pay for a Steinway, either. For the money, I'm a happy camper.

Why won't people do the research? Are they all just lemmings?

I had a conversation a few months ago with a dealer who handled Kawai and Pearl River. He said he used to also handle Charles Walter. He loved 'em. The technicians loved 'em. But people in this area didn't buy 'em. Why?

His theory was that the Pearl River pianos moved strictly on price - an alternative to used, but new and shiny. Good enough for little Johnny's first lessons. The Kawais sold because people compared them against Yamaha. "It's not a Yamaha, but it's Japanese, so it's got to be good. And yeah, I like the sound."

Even after explaining why the Walter was worth the investment, he said most people still wanted the Kawai or left and bought a Yamaha.

Go figure.

I wonder what people believe about Yamaha that have owned them for 20 or more years? What scares me is the anecdotal evidence that I have heard recently. Andre Watts was quoted as saying that his Yamaha S didn't have any music left in it after 10 years. A local technician/rebuilder has seen 2 Yamaha grands that had no crown. One was only 20 years old, the other closer to 30. I know a university piano professor that no longer plays his C6 at all. He tried to work with it, and even had the hammers replaced, but last I talked to him he had thrown up his hands on it. Granted this is purely anecdotal. But comments like these make me wonder if they really don't have an issue in design and/or construction.

SR,

Just for reference, the $15,000 that was cited for the Yamaha C2 is NOT list. I believe list in 2002 for a C2 is around $19,000. Now that *is* an obscene markup for what you get.

Ryan

Well said. Don't underestimate the value of the brand name to people who don't know what they are doing. Many people don't think to look on the internet, and don't find this forum (or others like it) if they do look, or, even if they do find a forum like this one, don't take the time to ask the questions and do the research, or lack the knowledge to ask the right questions and lack the guts to admit they don't know what to ask. People like that will buy a Yamaha because it's "safe", and don't think Yamaha doesn't know that and base its design, pricing, and marketing on it.

Second, I completely agree that a used piano is the way to go, IF you have a good piano technician whom you trust check it out for you first, and if you are willing to put some money into it after the purchase. Many novices are not going to do that. You can do well (as you did with your Kawai) if you take the time to learn what you are buying. I paid $1,500 for my Steinway K plus about another $2,000 for work on it to get it to the condition I wanted. For $3,500 I'll put what I have up against anything I possibly could have gotten in that price range. It's a great piano. But I took the time to learn what I was buying for my extra $2,000, and is a novice pianist or someone who wants a piano for the kids to practice on going to do that? Probably not. Again, they are the Yamaha type buyer.

Incidentally, the $23,000 Steinway wants for a new K is absolutely insane, and the criticism of Steinway on this forum for Steinway's pricing and lack of dealer prep is fully justified.

Ryan....



I am a C2 owner. I believe the current list is $23,995. At that price a C2 would have no more chance of entering my living room than a Bosie Imperial does. However I paid a couple grand less than the $15k for mine. I am thrilled with mine and at 2 or 3 hours a day of mostly Mozart I expect it will outlast Andre Watts' piano. I just hope I live long enough to find out. If I change my mind as time goes by I think the combination of the Yamaha brand recognition and the price I paid will allow a trade to something else with very small if any $ loss.

Regards

Steve

Steinway Musical Instruments (NYSE: LVB) closed today at $19.60, near a 52 week high and up 38% in the last quarter. The price of a share of their stock, like the price of their products is ultimately determined by the marketplace.

The market is full of inefficiencies and pufferies. Just ask Enron shareholders!

FWIW, Steinway is just short of its 52-week high, which was recorded at $20.85, which occured in May of last year. In between then and now, it plummeted to $13. Almost tech-style volatility! In 1998, it hit its 5-year high around $34.

In 1997, it started out even with the major indices (Dow Jones, S&P, Nasdaq), but lost ground consistently since late 1998. (Yes, I know in any comparison, they start out even, but Steinway ran neck and neck with the indices for almost two years, before tech mania had us reaching for the stars!)

The P/E is 11, faily low by modern standards. I think it is seen as a value play right now, but I don't think this stock will make anyone filthy rich for the foreseeable future.

In fact, I'm not sure what the shareholders are so enthusiastic about. From the last earnings report, the company does not foresee any growth in the coming year:


Steinway net falls, sees lower global piano sales
Thursday November 1, 4:49 PM EST

WALTHAM, Mass., Nov 1 (Reuters) - Steinway Musical Instruments Inc. (LVB) on Thursday said third-quarter net income fell, and the musical instruments maker said the weak economy will drag down global piano sales.

The Waltham, Massachusetts-based company said its net income fell to $2.5 million, or 28 cents a diluted share, from $2.8 million, or 31 cents a diluted share, in the same period last year.


Operating profits rose 18 percent to $4.3 million from $3.6 million last year, while earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization (EBITDA) increased 12 percent to $12.1 million from $10.8 million last year. Net sales in the quarter rose 9 percent to $82.9 million.

Steinway said it expects U.S. market conditions to remain difficult and negatively affect consumer confidence overseas, leading to a 15 percent to 20 percent decline in global piano sales in the fourth quarter.

It said it will cut domestic piano output at its New York factory to maintain appropriate inventory levels. Steinway Chief Executive Dana Messina said in a statement the company expects 2001 EBITDA to be even with last year and earnings per share of $1.50 to $1.65.

penny

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Penny ]

Jolly...



People must be lemmings to pick Yamaha ? All quality thought must match your's ?

In truth most shoppers don't know what to like. They don't trust their ears, they don't know a light quick action when they touch one. It's safer to go with the piano the church owns or go with Uncle Milties brand, rather than make a mistake buying something that in their mind nobody's ever heard of. Is this correct ? Well yes and no.
If they don't care to learn first then they need to take the route that gives them piece of mind, after all it's their money.

Hard as it may be for you to fathom some might actually prefer Yamaha.

Regards

Steve

Penny,

What does the symbol (LVB) stand for? I checked their website and did a little research online but I cant figure it out.

Ludwig van Beethoven!!!!!!!!!

penny

I guess what I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone who buys a Yamaha:
a.) Has not done their homework
b.) Is obsessed with the name on the fallboard. (is a lemming)
c.) Has been duped into paying more for less piano.
d.) Obviously does not have an ear for quality tone.

For the record, I am not a Yamaha owner. However, after playing quite a few pianos during my career (and a great variety in the last 6 months), I can tell you that my own preferences would take a C3 over several of the pianos championed on this board (including Estonia, Walter, SP, etc.).

The point is that this is subjective territory we're in. Any claims to the contrary are irresponsible.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: SteveY ]

I think a more appropriate or accurate way to say this is:

<....several of the pianos championed by some people on this board....>

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Obviously, not everybody who posts on this board agrees with everyone else on everything. The types and brands of pianos we own or aspire to own are as diverse as the group. I personally do not 'champion' some of the brands that some posters repeatedly spoke highly of. Hey, may be I am just a man with 'poor taste' or someone who really don't know anything about pianos. Just to put things in perspective, I drive a Saturn that Consumer Report labelled as "unremarkable". But as long as I am happy with it, who cares what other people think.

Different preferences for different people is what makes this world interesting. If everybody agrees with everybody on everything about a piano, we only need one type, one size, one brand, one style, and one color for a piano, and everyone will be happy owning this one piano!

Eric

Thank you Larry for the eye-opening post. I just have a few more questions.

Do I need to bring a technician to evaluate a piano that does not adopt those production steps to reduce inconsistencies, even though its brand new ?

Could you recommend a piano (new) for 15K ?

One last thing, Larry said: " The Asian culture is one that places little value on things once they get a little old. ". Not intending to go any further into argument, however may I suggest alteration to the statement " Yamaha is one that places little value on piano once they get a little old ". If this is what you mean, I couldn't agree more.

thanks again

SR,

Please read the entire thread. The discussion started as a way to ascertain opinions as to whether Yamaha will remain at the top of the heap in respect to consumer sales. It later turned into a discussion about "branding" and the importance thereof.

Do I think Yamaha is a bad piano. No.

Do I have a corner on the truth? More than some and less than others. And sometimes I'm dreadfully wrong.

Can a Yamaha be YOUR dream piano. Absolutely.

Is it the best value on the market? Not IMHO.

Do people who purchase major consumer goods based on little or no research, who wouldn't know Middle C from Hi-C, and only buy the piano based on what is popular, lemmings? Yep.

Subarus,

You better not bring a tech if you plan on buying from Larry. He'll get insulted and he won't sell you a piano.

IMO, I don't care if you are buying a Yamaha or a Boesendorfer, bring a tech. IT'S YOUR MONEY you are spending. Just make sure to minimize any collusion between the dealer and the technician. And make sure the tech isn't feeding you a line of bull because he's working for another dealer.

FWIW, I have played two C6's and one C7 which were truly outstanding. But I can't be as complimentary to the others I have encountered.

Derick

Terrific thread!

This thread sounds a lot like our discussion in the desert; lots of the same issues. I believe the conclusion was when we were finished, that it DOES matter what's in the box, but you can do more to improve sales by tinkering with the brand than the product itself.

"What's in the box" has a buzzword - it's called "protection of the brand". Yamaha does a bang-up job of protecting the brand. If consistency in the brand lineup is what you want, then Yamaha has that one dialed. Big and small, upright and grand, they all have a remarkably similar action and tone. So similar that it HAS to be a production built piano, there is no other way to make them that consistent. I do not view this as a bad thing, and I suspect that this tone was decided upon after exhaustive research in to what the average buyer at each price point wants their piano to sound like. As a factory guy, I admire a factory that can engineer repeatability in to something so complex as a piano.

Yamaha has also done a remarkable job of marketing their product. I am not sure how they went about it, but everyone knows the brand name, and most feel pretty comfortable with it. Some artists among us may feel differently, but Yamaha appears to be doing a darned good job of satisfying the average piano buyer. You don't do that with a poor product - no matter what they spin is - not for very long.

Did all of these things make me run out and buy one? Well no, they didn't. But I am not Yamaha's target buyer, and you can be sure they have a little box where they classify buyers like myself. I suspect that most of us here are not Yamaha's target buyer, even though many of us are or could be perfectly contented with a Yamaha product. Why are we not the target?

Enter "art" and "artists" - the nemesis of product marketing gurus and their advertising brethren. Anyone who cares enough about the product to actually read and contribute to a forum such as this one is not the sort that branding is going to impress. We are just as likely to buy something used as new, and confound the marketing guys with terms like "musical patina" and "development of soul". We are definitely not the people you want in your focus group

So then we come back to protecting the brand. If one is to sell to people who are not impressed with branding and advertising, the product must stand on it's own merits. Judging by the number of satisifed Yamaha owners on this forum, the product will compete on it's own merits. Matters of personal taste aside, there are one heck of a lot of people who like their Yamahas, and like them a lot.

Overpriced? Depends on your definition. Overpriced is when no one will buy your product because it is too expensive. Keeping in mind that the sum total of the product is the product itself + the marketing effort, Yamahas are priced just right. They move off of the showroom floor in volumes most piano manufacturers would kill for.

Best price/value ratio? Not for me, but then again I buy everything used. For many though, the value is there. Resale value, brand recognition, a distinctive sound that Yamahas seem to maintain for 20 years. Like it or hate it, Yamahas sound like Yamahas, and seem to do so forever.

It has to do with protecting the brand.....