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#117376 - 02/16/02 08:14 AM Re: King of the Hill
freddie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 185
Loc: Indiana
About the race thing..... I work with black people and many times we have all talked the fact that a person (most likely a neighbor/relative) of ours with "food stamps" can eat "steak/pork chops.." everyday while we eat what our budget allows. Ditto for clothing, medical care, dental, etc.... I am tired of hearing how my black brother is "living off the system", because I know a whole alot of white people doing it too!!!!!!!


Here's a real KICKER!!!!! A south Bend, IN piano store that I go into here and there had a program (I think Baldwin might have pulled it recently) that allowed a person to get a piano if they couldn't afford it (a Baldwin Hamilton or other upright below that model), the payment was about $30.00 a month. It was a rent to own like deal. HERE IS THE CATCH: The person buying the piano had to have a child under 18 taking piano lessons and be in financial need. NO CREDIT CHECK either. LOL Give me a break.... ;\)

I'm still a Demo (and I always will be), but I am a very conservative one now.

Freddie

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: freddie ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: freddie ]
_________________________
"The best thing about being a bachelor is that you can get into bed from either side" - James Dean

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#117377 - 02/16/02 09:27 AM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by subarus:
I realised that its not the upright that has problem... its me !! Just because my piano sounds terrible when I played it... doesnt mean someone else cant make it sing.. Anybody had this experience ??
[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: subarus ][/b]


Every time my teacher, or my tech, plays my piano. \:\)

Dwain

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#117378 - 02/16/02 09:31 AM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
Derick

Forgive me if I seem cruel and obnoxious...

[/b]


Didn't sound obnoxious to me, lb. And FWIW, your life story matched my father's almost exactly, line for line.

Dwain

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#117379 - 02/16/02 09:43 AM Re: King of the Hill
Cork Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Dallas, TX
Derick wrote:

"Which leads me to Cork's post. Quite frankly, I'm shocked. Far be it from me to judge someone else's ethics, but I am as surprised at what you said as I am by what lb said about Enron employees. How can anyone feel not a twinge of guilt, and actually be proud of the fact that their company let people go and they reaped the benefits of the healthier bottom-line at the expense of the pain and suffering of the former employees?"

I'll only make a couple of comments for reasons that are obvious to most readers, and I'll try not to insult you, Derick. Obviously you believe passionately in the tenets of your anti-capitalist system and while I utterly reject what you implicitly propose I admire your courage for sticking with your beliefs in the face of history and current-day reality.

I am extremely proud to be a member of the bloated, blood-sucking executive class. I've worked exceptionally hard to get to this level and sacrificed much on the way, and I've done it while retaining my personal integrity. As for CEO's making too much money, perhaps in the US many do; but they have ZERO job security. (Unlike virtually any other job in this country CEO's and other senior executives can lose their jobs simply because they disagree with something, or because there is a personality conflict.)

But the real point I'll make on this is simple: I've watched my CEO closely for a couple of years now, and I wouldn't take his job for any amount of money. The man works virtually every waking hour. His lunches and dinners are nearly all business discussions. His weekends are spent in the company of other firms' executives attempting to find other ways to grow our company. I receive e-mails from him on important topics at all hours of the day and night; yet though he works constantly he respects others' desire to spend time with their families.

I am, I believe, exceptionally good at what I do but I know I could not perform in that job the way he does. Is he worth three times more than I make? Absolutely, and if the other employees and stockholders saw the amount of effort he puts in to get the results we generate they would agree as well.

As for layoffs, yes I have been involved in a number of them. They are extremely painful actions for all involved. On the other hand, our company survived BECAUSE of these actions and as a result a lot of people still have jobs that would have been lost had the company gone out of business.

I won't get into the Enron mess in much detail, though I have connections that have provided some fascinating insights into what happened. However, I will point out that the company stock contribution to the 401k is just the portion provided BY THE COMPANY. These are independent retirement savings accounts funded primarily by contributions of the EMPLOYEE, not the company. If people have had their entire 401k wiped out that means they bought Enron stock with their own contributions, which is plain stupid. Is it a huge shame that their 401k's have been wiped out as a result of their putting ALL their eggs in one basket? Absolutely. It is a huge shame that people who did that chose to ignore the investment advice every company is required to provide their 401k participants. This advice includes discussion of the virtues of diversification and of the potential volatility of single stocks, including the company's. The employees who ignored that advice GAMBLED with their retirement and lost. I have no more sympathy for them than I do for people who fly to Vegas and blow it all there.

Enough. Most of this will make no impression on you anyway, because it doesn't fit into the solution set you have pre-programmed in your mind.

Regards,

Cork
The bloated, blood-sucking executive Barbarian.

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#117380 - 02/16/02 09:56 AM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by subarus:
wow.. so many words that I cannot understand, but this issue interest me so I have to ask.. so in essense ,does a consumer has the right to expect or demand the same price for identical pianos ?

assuming:
...

3) In a state governed democratically, practices capitalistic, free enterprise ,competitive form of economy,...
[/b]


These two concepts are contradictory. In a free society, the consumer cannot have the right to demand a price offered by a provider.

The consumer does always have the right to affect the provider's pricing structure by choosing to not buy a product at a given price. An offer to sell is simply that, an offer. If the provider is so off-base that no one will buy from him, he'll either adjust to market demands or go out of business. If he's got enough business on his own chosen terms, why should he (be forced to)change his business practices to reduce his profit? This would not be a free market, but a Randian form of slavery (where's ZH when you need her?).

No thanks, I'll put up with the inconvenience of shopping around for my best combination of price and service, and leave the planned economies to others.


Dwain

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#117381 - 02/16/02 10:28 AM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Gee, I've missed you, Cork! ;\)

Dwain

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#117382 - 02/16/02 10:47 AM Re: King of the Hill
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
In the pro audio business, like pianos, everything is negotiable from the manufacturer's "list" price. However, anyone who's been around for any length of time learns that there's a system behind it that determines pricing (most of the time). Almost all equipment from larger companies such as keyboards, amplifiers, speakers, etc. fall into what is called a "B Mark". If list price is $10, dealer cost is $6. Extremely high-end microphones, tube pre-amps and the like usually fall into what is called a "C Mark" where assuming the same $10 list price, dealer cost is $7. The only two variables I can think of at the moment are when dealers purchase large quantities of any one product, they might get a small break on the price, but this is usually pretty small (even for national chains such as Guitar Center). There is also the potential for confusion as to which products are "B" and "C" marks. For example, not all microphone pre-amps are "C" marks, but most high-end ones are.

The reason I bring this up is that when I need something for my studio, I need only need to find the list price (which I can usually find on the manufacturer's web site). I can do the math from there as to what I'd expect to pay. I even have relationships with two different dealers where I simply email them what I want and they give me a standard pre-agreed margin. I don't need to haggle or shop them at all. They win since the only effort for them is writing up the sale. I win since I get a low margin purchase price. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the piano world adopt this model. In fact, I think it would be impossible. However, as a consumer, I think it would be healthy to have industry norms in place such as the "B" and "C" mark of the pro audio industry. Who knows? Perhaps they already exist and I just don't know about them. But I do know that I was offered well over 40% off both Yamaha and Schimmel pianos. I was even offered almost 40% off a Bosendorfer. Based on my experience, I suspect there isn't an industry-wide norm in terms of margin.

One more thought about dealer pricing in the piano industry. The more I think about it, the more I'm impressed with the truly honest piano dealers out there. Car dealers often have poor ethical reputations and yet they rely on repeat business. I'm curious to know some of the numbers in the piano industry regarding repeat business. I'd imagine that ethics/values aside, it would be easy for a piano dealer to justify "the pursuit of margin" over "truly meeting the customer's needs". What's the worst that can happen? He/she won't come back? They're not likely to come back for years anyway. And when they are ready to move-up, they have so few choices in terms of dealers that they're almost forced to come back. I drive a Ford, and just because I have a bad experience with a dealer doesn't mean I won't drive another Ford. However it does mean that I'll try and find another Ford dealer in my area. But in the piano industry, you might have to look in another state to find that dealer. If the customer purchases a high-end piano, I'd imagine that the likelyhood of them returning for another purchase drops dramatically. All the more reason to get margin at any cost for the dealer.

So assuming my conclusions have some truth in them, rather than blasting the less than ethical dealers, I'd like to commend the ethical ones. That's precisely why I went out of my way to recommend a couple dealers that I didn't even purchase from. We need to support these people!
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PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#117383 - 02/16/02 11:01 AM Re: King of the Hill
freddie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 185
Loc: Indiana
Good Post Cork!!! Your right on the money!!


I slightly disagree with you about the 401k issue (but only by a frog's hair, because when you gamble like that you should accept your loss, but then again your boss shouldn't pocket your 401k imput ;\) ). If that is really the way the whole thing went down anyway (it sounds like you got the true version of the story). I heard the employee's of that company had the chance to bail out of their 401k plan, but decided to sit on it (gamble) and get rich instead.

I come into contact with alot of CEO's or higher up's in my job (LOL) and you are right Cork, they are the first to get the axe when something unfortunate happens. They are tied to their jobs 24 hours a day and basically married to the company. So many have came and gone that I have honestly lost track of them a long time ago. One said to me a short while ago "Well it's you and me again Freddie, we can't keep anyone else in this damn place for very long".

Freddie
_________________________
"The best thing about being a bachelor is that you can get into bed from either side" - James Dean

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#117384 - 02/16/02 11:43 AM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
Has anybody noticed this thread has the makings of a book or movie?

Ib - the grizzled corporate veteran.

Larry - the handsome leading man and capitalistic hero.

Cork - the mysterious, well-heeled, old friend.

Derick - the antagonist seeking wisdom and higher meaning.

pique - the glamorous "Lady of the Northwoods" with the shady piano past.

freddie - the "Rudy" character who will triumph against all odds.

Norbert - the European uncle with past ties to Larry.

Jolly - the redneck throw-a-way who dies early in the plot.

A cast of thousands.

and...

YAMAHA - the BEAST from the EAST!

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Jolly ]
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117385 - 02/16/02 12:06 PM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I must say that this is getting funny!

First people want bigger discounts, next they complain because pianos aren't sold for full list! I'll be happy to sell them for full list if that will make people happy...
[/b]


Larry -- I don't know if you were addressing me, but if you were, you missed my point. I have no problem with different stores charging different amounts for the same product. As you justly point out, the level of service, level of convenience, and cost of doing business will vary store to store, and there is no reason that in a market environment, prices shouldn't take account of this reality.

My "problem" is where a store charges different amounts for the same product to different people. The obvious possibilities of discrimination and prejudice are clear. But more to the point, within a capitalist economy, charging different amounts for the smae produce to different customers is disruptive of human community. There is a spiral downward in human behavior, as customers either come out feeling ripped off or at least distrustful, and sellers (especially if they work on commission or for other owners)feel obligated to try to squeeze out the last dollar. Of course, it doesn't have to happen that way, but the mechanism to push things in that direction are clearly there.

And that's a problem. The benefits of capitalism are that it provides incentive for innovation and an array of choices to the consumer. Fixed prices in which merchants charge the same price to all customers do not have negative impacts on either of these two benefits, and build more trusting communities. As destruction of community (often described as cutthroat competition) is the most common complaint against capitalism, I would think it would benefit those that believe in capitalism as a system to work to build community rather than destrohy it.

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#117386 - 02/16/02 12:20 PM Re: King of the Hill
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Do those underpaid CEOs include...

KAREN HENDRICKS?????
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#117387 - 02/16/02 12:22 PM Re: King of the Hill
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Hey, Jolly, What about me?

You can just cast me as the comic relief.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#117388 - 02/16/02 01:16 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
Nah, let's see...Hank...


Hank - the Jimmy Stewartish, nice-pianoguy-next-door.

\:\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117389 - 02/16/02 02:01 PM Re: King of the Hill
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Jolly
Thanks \:\) \:\) \:\)

I am in a famous world class city on Saturday night, and I am reading the piano forum. Is something wrong here.

The first thing I did when checking in was to see if there was a computer connection in the room. There was \:\) \:\)

lb

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#117390 - 02/16/02 02:16 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:


Larry -- I don't know if you were addressing me, but if you were, you missed my point. [/b]


No, I wasn't really addressing any one individual at all. Sorry if it seemed that way. The thread was just sort of working its way into those two ideas in general.
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Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#117391 - 02/16/02 02:36 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Obviously I can't sit here and not reply, but I will make this short and sweet. Or at least as short and sweet as I can make it.

Freddie - my heart goes out to people in your situation. You work hard but don't make a lot of money. Then you look around and see people who either don't work, or have little ambition, who get hand-outs. Then there are people, who have worked hard but also "got lucky". Most have done well, some have done very well. But the fact is that luck plays into this as much as hard work, and that can seem very unfair. Some people who start out life as "unlucky" manage to get out of the hole by working their butt off. lb sounds like one of these people. But lb has made it and he now says the hell with the rest of the world. That's his choice. But I think it's cold. I wish you the best in life Freddie and hope you can reach your hopes and dreams. I pray you will always remain the humble individual you are and that your heart never hardens.

Mike Parke - the only people I insulted were those who insulted me first; lb andd David Burton. The new Derick is all about playing nice with those who play nice with me. I may not agree with Larry or Cork, but they were not insulting. I will "play nice" with them.

Cork - My problem is not with people who make a lot of money, my problem is with people who make a lot of money and reap benefits at the expense of others... Company X is having a very bad year. The Board of Directors for Company X meets and decides they have to lay-off 40,000 people in order to survive. Company X also reduces employee benefits, and reduces employee's pensions. Yet, Company X's executives benefits AND pensions are enhanced - at the same meeting!!! At the end of the year, Company X meets WallStreet's expectations. Company X's CEO and Board of Directors are given a slap on the back, a firm hand-shake and their $7,000,000/year salary is augmented by a $14,000,000 bonus.

Now do you really think that is fair? How can these executives justify letting people go, reduce benefits of remaining employees, yet increase your own benefits and take a $14,000,000 bonus???????

Maybe you think that is fair because you feel you have worked harder than eveyrone else, but I don't. I am not anti-capitalist. I have a heart. And believe me if I had to let 40,000 people go and reduce benefits you can bet that I, as CEO of Company X would not take a $14,000,000 bonus and increase my own benefits. I'd be ashamed.

Hank Drake mentioned Karen Hedricks. I believe she is the woman who was paid millions by Baldwin, brought the company to the brink of bankruptcy and had a severance of a couple of mil a year after working for Baldwin for a year or two??? Not sure if I have all the fact right, but that's pretty close. All the CEO's I know out there are Karen Hendricks CEO's. I'm sure there are some who have a conscience. If your company, Cork, is one of those that has a conscience, I applaud you and your company and do not begrudge you a dime of your hard-earned money. If not, I'll pray for you...

It is easier for a camel to fit thru the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to enter heaven.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117392 - 02/16/02 02:43 PM Re: King of the Hill
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Derick
I work every day with high strung sensitive individuals(piano people). I am very careful in what and way I say things to avoid riling any temprements. If I say anything to make someone mad, it was intentional.

A couple comments you made

" anyone who can afford 3 cars (a new one every year), the oldest of which is 3 years old, probably doesn't need the discount as much as the young couple with the newborn."

I agree totally with you on this, I do not need the discount as much as the young couple. I do not need it, but I deserve it, they don't


"You've essentially eaten some of their lunch by accepting the discount whether you know it or not."

You are implying that I took something from them. That I took food out of their mouth is the way I read it.

I will also admit that I have made some real stupid mistakes in my life, but getting married and having kids was not one of them. It gave me some incentative to do something. Dropping out of school was not a choice in that era, but I did something about it.

Your problem is that you want to punish somone who took the inititive and the guts to succeed. There is an old saying in the Czech Republic that fits you.
"If a man has one goat and his neighbor has two, he is jealous. He doesn't need two goats, he just hopes one of the neighbors goats dies so they will be even"
:p :p :p

lb

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#117393 - 02/16/02 03:33 PM Re: King of the Hill
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Derick

"lb sounds like one of these people. But lb has made it and he now says the hell with the rest of the world. That's his choice. But I think it's cold."

I didn't just make it, I have had it made since my father instilled in me the work ethics that I have. I work just as hard today as I did 40 years ago. I retired at 50 years old, but after 2 years decided that retirement sucks.

Let me tell you what my cold ass has done this past year.

I bought from Goodwill stores 140 pounds of clothes per month and had them shipped to towns in the former Eastern Block.

I have at my cost made contacts between several police and fire departments in the former Eastern Block with departments in the U.S. and have carried documents and materials back and forth as well as paying for all translations.

I have arranged to have a small town in the Czech republic become a Sister City with a city in the U.S.. This includes arranging contact between businesses in these citys.

I have worked with a Catholic missionary organization in Genoa Italy to help support their missions in Central Africa. This includes the locating and purchasing of two brick forming machines so they can build houses that will not melt when it rains.

I have probably spent more in this work this past year than you earned.

I am cold when it comes to people that expect a handout and are to lazy to help themselves. Steve Cohen can vouch for some of this as he has helped me some.

I hope that this doesn't change the image of me on this forum that I have work so hard to get.

lb
PS. The two brick forming machines, I only paid for one of them, my friendly car dealer paid for the other one. But he will probably add the cost of it to that young couples car, after all someone has to pay for it.
[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lb ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: lb ]

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#117394 - 02/16/02 04:23 PM Re: King of the Hill
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5228
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cork:

Cork
The bloated, blood-sucking executive Barbarian[/b]


There's our good barbarian! Where have you been? \:D
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#117395 - 02/16/02 04:24 PM Re: King of the Hill
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
I would like to interrupt this exchange of ad homonym attacks to translate a humorous French saying: "If, at 20, you are NOT a communist you have no heart. If, at 40, you ARE a communist you have no brain."[/b]

Dear T2,

I have heard this quote attibuted to Winston Churchill and it went like this:

"A man who is under 30 and is a conservative has no heart and a man that is over 30 and is a liberal has no brain."
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#117396 - 02/16/02 04:39 PM Re: King of the Hill
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Hey Jolly, I like the Jimmy Stewart comparison, since my favorite film is Vertigo. (Great score by Bernard Hermann, too!)

We better keep posting here, Zeldah Hanson has returned to the piano player's forum. Break out your flame-retardant clothing!
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#117397 - 02/16/02 04:45 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
A little theological light - the verse about the camel and the eye of the needle refers to humility, not wealth. In Biblical times, cities were surrounded by walls. Gates were built into the walls such that a man on horseback or on camelback could not ride through the gate. The gates were so small and low they were known as "the eye of the needle". To bring a camel loaded with goods into the city it was necessary for the camel to bow down and scoot almost on its' belly through the gate.

Sometimes all those theology classes in college are useful! \:\)

It seems we have fallen into a cross-question, crooked-answer mode. There is much more agreement between Ib and Derick than disagreement. Derick IS a capitalist. Ib IS a philanthropist. The devil, of course, is in some of the small details (or maybe just perception of details). \:\(

As an aside, I have a brother-in-law that probably travels more than any five folks on the board put together. Every continent at least 3 times last year except Antarctica and Australia (though he made it there twice). He said some of the poverty he encountered in the former Easterm Bloc nations rivals anything on the face of the Earth. So kudos to anyone who helps through business or charity to make this part of the world a little better. \:\)
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www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117398 - 02/16/02 05:09 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
...my problem is with people who make a lot of money and reap benefits at the expense of others... [/b]



So then you have a problem with youreslf, I assume. Anyone who is gainfully employed does exactly that. Come on Derick, don't be such a hypocrite.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:

I am not anti-capitalist. I have a heart... [/b]


And here is part of the problem, Derick. You apparently believe that people who have fundamental beliefs paralleling Cork, or lb, or me, or many others here that I could name, have those beliefs out of heartlessness or coldness. I assure you that in most cases, it is quite the opposite. In one sense I'm glad that lb has enumerated his caring deeds, even though I wish he hadn't been pushed by your presupposition to have done so. I also know of others on this Forum whose personal and unpublicized actions would probably surprise you, given your apparent prejudgment of their hearts based on a misunderstanding of their politics. You see Derick, those of us who hold these positions feel that our attitudes are ultimately far more humane and caring - not to mention "fair" - than the opposing position. It is very difficult discussing these matters with someone like you, who suffers under an a priori dismissal of the possibility of a moral basis for our beliefs.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:

...If not, I'll pray for you...
[/b]


That's awfully nice of you.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:

It is easier for a camel to fit thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
[/b]


How about this:

"Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All, therefore, whatever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not after their works; for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

"But all their works they do to be seen of men; they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost places at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the market places, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

"But be not ye called Rabbi, for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, who is in heaven. Neither by you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Let he who has ears to hear, etc.

Dwain

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#117399 - 02/16/02 06:20 PM Re: King of the Hill
MikeC65 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/01
Posts: 325
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Doesn't Yamaha frown on any dealer who sells a piano below a certain price?

Would this be considered an example of vertical price fixing?[/b]


I've never practiced in this area of law, so I'm remembering this stuff from law school, but I have a vague recollection that price floors are allowed, although the manufacturer can't set a specific upper price limit. But I might be wrong. I will look it up at work and post a positively correct rule later. I do remember that the manufacturer cannot dictate the selling price.
_________________________
Mike Cohan
St. Louis, MO
1910 Steinway Model K

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#117400 - 02/16/02 07:11 PM Re: King of the Hill
Friday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 405
Loc: South Bay, CA
WOW! It took 13 pages for the heat to get turn up; is this some kind of record?

(Not the pages, but for the gloves to come off.)
_________________________
Shoe!

F.

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#117401 - 02/16/02 08:17 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
MANUFACTURER CANNOT DICTATE THE SELLING PRICE[/b]

Well, exactly.. and all the dealers here are watching one small store having a virtual feeding frenzy selling their identical pianos against a much larger store not in their territory,but within 1 hour drive, for 100's and 1000's $$ less!

It appears, that sometimes even the big guys hands are tied.

Or so it appears.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117402 - 02/17/02 12:31 AM Re: King of the Hill
T2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 341
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Galassini:
I would like to interrupt this exchange of ad homonym attacks to translate a humorous French saying: "If, at 20, you are NOT a communist you have no heart. If, at 40, you ARE a communist you have no brain."[/b]

Dear T2,

I have heard this quote attibuted to Winston Churchill and it went like this:

"A man who is under 30 and is a conservative has no heart and a man that is over 30 and is a liberal has no brain."[/b]


Rich,

I heard the version I quoted via heresay while on business in Paris. I certainly would not consider myself an authoritative source. But I like both versions. ;\)

T2

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#117403 - 02/17/02 08:42 AM Re: King of the Hill
Cork Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Dallas, TX
Derick wrote:

"CEO and Board of Directors are given a slap on the back, a firm hand-shake and their $7,000,000/year salary is augmented by a $14,000,000 bonus."

This will be my last post on the subject of corporate pay. As I said in my first note, I do believe a case can be made that some US CEO's are paid too much. However, do not think that all CEO's are paid millions of dollars; generally it is only the handful of very large corporations (and family-controlled corporations) that pay at that level. My boss makes less than $500,000 in salary at an NYSE-listed company . . .

(By the way, outside Board members are not paid millions of dollars. I'm sure that was not what you meant in your note.)

Getting back to the central issue, the core philosophy of what you seem to be espousing might be rendered thus:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

I've already seen that Utopia, and I prefer nasty old capitalism.

Cork

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#117404 - 02/17/02 02:27 PM Re: King of the Hill
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Jolly

I looked up what it meant, and I am sure not a philanthropist.

I want to clear a few things up. I do not go out of my way to help people. If I see someone though that needs help and is trying to help themselves I will do what I can to help them.

I also do not consider myself rich in the financial sense. Rich is a subjective term, how much is enough? I am comfortable, and what more can you ask for. I am rich though in family, job, health, and experience. These mean more than money.

Your brother in-law is right about the poverty in the Eastern block countries. People in the U.S. would not believe it if they saw it. The corruption is also unbelievable there. But for the most part the common person has a good attitude and is busting their butt's to improve themselves. The family bond is a lot tighter there than in the U.S.. Everyone in the family has to contribute in order to survive, and it is normal on Sunday afternoon to see the whole family, teenagers included, taking a walk on the city square.

The State police is funded by the state, but all the munincipal police depts. are funded by the city. Some of these villages that have no industry are very poor. I know one that the starter went out of their police car and they didn't have the money to fix it. They had to push start it. When they would stop someone for a violation, they would follow them till they were on a downgrade to pull them over(Gods truth).

How I got involved with the police and fire departments here is another story, but I found out that U.S. police arm patches and memorabelia is a valuable commodity here. The state police, who are well equipped, will trade equipment for these patches. The more well known the city in the U.S. the more valuable the item. I beat on everyone I knew in the U.S. that had any connection to a U.S. police dept or officer. I even called Steve Cohen, and he sent me a real nice package of stuff from around the D.C. area. The response was unbelievable, I got a ton of arm patches, training manuals, police and fire magazines, badges, and books.

It makes me feel good to do as much as possible to help these people, as they need help, and are doing everthing under their power to help themselves.

Thanks Jolly for the kind words even though they aren't deserved.

When I saw you called me a philanthropist, I was going to call your wife and tell her you told everyone on the internet that she was 41, then I looked it up in the dictionary \:\) \:\) \:D

lb

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#117405 - 02/17/02 02:56 PM Re: King of the Hill
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Golly,
I leave for just a little over one day, and things just seem to go to HELL! I sure had a lot to catch up on. \:\(

I've got 2 things to say. 1. Last night I was in absolute heaven at a St. Olaf Choir concert at Krannert Center (University of Illinois) The acoustics are GREAT there. The Chicago Symphony did some recording there. The concert was toooooooooo COOL \:\)
As usual, it ended with Beautiful Savior....which all Lutherans ;\) Love!

2. Just how will Derick EVER make it to the "good guy" list now? \:D

THE CHOIR was in Pittsburgh last night. I wonder if RichG was here. I didn't even know Pittsburgh had a "Carnegie" hall.

Anyone chatting tonight? I'm going out for Chinese....really just to crack crab legs; but I'm hoping to chat later.
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

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